Range Changes

Karai

Not really. int-monks took a huge hit more than most. I have 11 str and 12 con. My survivability requires that I limit my mana by using transmute, and have few instances when I can Kai-heal because most classes don't give enough Kai to make it possible especially after the 1/2 cut to kai-gain. We cannot flee like most, are susceptible to hindering, have no hindering abilities of our own and cannot chase well at all especially to those opponents that tumble past a wall that really negates all of our offense. Crush with a radius makes far more sense even if it doesn't cross areas, moreso than LoS that doesn't cross areas. 3-5 rooms respecting area boundaries (not crossing them) is still a huge nerf but one we can survive. As it is now, crush is such a specialized ability and mostly worse than archery because you need a lock, you need to maintain that lock, only one person can have a lock at any one time, and it does not cross area boundaries even though it is a LoS ability. If its LoS, make it true LoS, not some faulty version of it. Most people claim that Monk is overpowered, looking at people with artefacts. But that is not the way to balance it.

Jarrod

The intelligent people claiming Monk is still extremely strong are looking at the skills, not the class.

Edit: Overpowered wrong word.

Karai

You're arguing symantecs. I don't mean the class as a whole, but the abilities inside it. Rather than list every one to appear intelligent. I'm discussing mind-crush, and nothing else. And everything about the change is unsound.

Mizik

Your argument is for 1v1 then? I'll bite.

What radius is fair? And what for? So the opponent doesn't stand after tumbling over wall, then walk around a corner, I assume.

Otherwise, groups. If the answer ever becomes "So x can't attack me as I mind crush x 50", I will have won the argument.

The ultimate point now is "If X can attack me, then I can attack X". Crush has the trumping benefit of thrashing mana while not being blockable, wallable, tankable, dodgeable while you just shield/wall against some arrows. Or turn on Projectiles.

Ever seen projectiles vs non aimed/wind shots? Forget arrowcatch.

Antonius

Int monks still have choke for LoS and kai in group settings isn't in short supply. There are very few, if any at all, group fights where you only have monks providing your LoS offense; choke combined with the others is still very powerful.

Monk survivability in general is poor without access to transmute, kai heal and numb. That's even worse for str specced monks since they have so much less mana to use transmuting, and no more health to make up the difference.

Crush is still massively useful 1v1, and choke is still a great LoS ability. I don't see why you also need crush to be an amazing LoS/ranged ability in order to be happy.

Jarrod

Monk survivability is poor without access to the three extremely powerful abilities they have that give them near (if not the) best survivability?

I'm not sure what the point of that statement was.

Karai

Because LoS doesn't make sense. You restrict a Monks telepathic ability, including the time it takes to gain a lock and the large probability that the lock will be lost further by adding area boundaries and that only one person can do it at a time; I don't care if you have 5 people shooting at others with arrowcatch or projectiles on, only one Monk can target one person with it. If its LoS, thats fine, find a way to make it continue along the LoS as was proposed. Because apparently, the argument is that if we can see you we can do telepathy to you, according to the change. Kai-Choke's functionality is sometimes very lacking and we never know if we even hit. Crush had the benefit of us being able to damage an opponent that was running from us. Radius doesn't mean we can stand and button mash to death, that was already removed because you don't have to leave the area anymore. And I already said, 3-5 rooms. Possibly 3, that way yes it allows us to get someone around a corner but also someone thats one direction away and in or out, it allows us to target people irrespective of their location and have control of an area, a radius people know that isn't safe against a Monk, and area control is important to a Monk because, as I said, we cannot chase but people can easily flee, we can be held down but cannot hold someone down. It makes it so people think before they enter into the radius of a Monk just as a Monk would have to keep a good idea of where he is and where the other person is. If a whole area was overpowered and I've been crushed before and survived many times against heavily artied people, this is not as overpowered as people seem to believe.

Crush has a high cost for the reasons I listed to use it as a ranged attack, not as an in-room attack because nothing has changed there. That high cost comes with less benefit overall for that range.

Antonius

@Jarrod: If that's directed at me, I was commenting on Karai's statement that their survivability is dependent on limiting mana usage so they can transmute, and the implication that that's somehow a problem only limited to intelligence specced monks.

EDIT: I also just woke up after falling asleep reading, so it's probably a rambling mess that only makes sense to me!

Jarrod

I'm confused at a few things, one why you seem to think running is a problem only for monks, two why you think monks should be inescapable, three why you think running is even relevant in an extended fight vs a properly setup prep class.

You can still mindlock and use telepathy outside Crush from anywhere in the area, I think your view on the skills and their uses is extremely limited, and this change affected the skill in a way that severely limits it only in the confined situations you're conceiving.


@Antonius: Ah, makes sense

Mizik

Antonius said:

Monk survivability in general is poor without access to transmute, kai heal and numb.

See: Blademaster.

Penwize

Mizik said:

Monk survivability in general is poor without access to transmute, kai heal and numb.

See: Blademaster.

Mir godmode doesn't count?

Dunn

Eld tanked four bites in storm in Mir with a TF.

Don't you dare, Mizik.

Mizik

Can't Mir while prone.

Most classes can tank 4 bites with a TF.

Nemutaur

Karai said:

 when I can Kai-heal because most classes don't give enough Kai to make it possible especially after the 1/2 cut to kai-gain. 

How are you not getting enough kai? Even in 1v1 theres tricks to getting kai from classes that dont tend to give you much. And in group combat if you're smart about who you enemy you'll be maxed kai 2 seconds after you rush someone or they rush you.

As for kai choke not hitting, if you have a decent team 4/5 kai chokes will probably hit. Just tell one of the monks to stop being selfish and use telepathy or get your serpents to use venoms on those arrows...

There's a reason I've been monk, for what over a year now, since I started playing. Its damn strong, easy to learn, almost as easy to master with the right mentoring and guidance... I mean our skillset is almost as overpowered as Blademasters and the only reason they win is because of evade. Take away evade and I'd pick monk over bm anyday.

Anedhel

"A huge nerf but one we can survive"?

Man, I'm sorry, but it really feels like you're just being lazy about learning your class, or being creative about it, and you just want everything to be easy. If you can't make monk work, I don't even know. Group, or 1v1.

Karai

No, but its a huge problem for Monks in general, and something that has been given only bandaid fixes that cause a lot more problems, and one is a very simple solution for one ability that merely involves jpk and water. Once Anedhel stops spewing insults about things and people she has no idea about, I'll maybe address her.

Classleads will come and we'll have an opportunity to see how the changes have impacted combat, for better or worse, and hopefully revise as needed.

Santar

He was also doing the most DPS of anyone in his party while tanking 16 Targossians at once.

But it sucks that you only -barely- have the best range in the game now, right?

Nemutaur

Didn't I cripple to ensure that others would get the kill on that one? Ah well could have been an enfeeble or a combo who knows, the melee's were a little hectic.

Also I'm pretty sure I didn't transmute, you can't transmute against Targossas because I need that mana for focus and clot otherwise some stupid angel rips my soul out. That was all numb, kai heal, damage/hindering, lean numb again so that you get it the moment it wears off even if you die and then do as much damage as you can before you die. Rinse and repeat fellas.

Iocun

@Karai in response to the issue of people running:

First, let's assume we're talking about 1v1. There are two situations in which your opponent might be running.

1. He's prone with one or two broken legs while you're executing your kill moves and he chooses to tumble out (assumedly through a wall to prevent your following). You now either have to get to them, or choke in the hope that they're already close enough to death to die from it. They will always be adjacent to your room in this situation, so nothing changed from before. In contrary: before the change, the tumble might actually have moved them to a different area and thus completely out of choke range. Now, they're always still in choke range when they tumble.
2. He's running while still unhindered. Maybe he simply doesn't want to fight you. Maybe your normal combos are already damaging him so badly that he'd die from them soon. In the first case, it's very unlikely that you can kill him with chokes anyways. In the second, you might, but that's really only a situation that would come up if you have an awesome damage output and your opponent is a novice with low health or so. I guess a more extended choke range would thus help in getting kills on people you hugely outmatch. But I don't think that's a situation that must be preserved. Also consider that the majority of classes have a very hard time with opponents who run away. This is by no means a monk-specific thing. In 1v1, if people really want to run away from you, they usually can, no matter what class you are.

If you meant group combat instead of 1v1, then it's simply a matter of combining your abilities with that of other classes to attempt to keep a target immobile. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but that's again a general issue of running away being too easy in most cases.

Dunn

A better example is that I saw Zuko tank all of our occies warp hounding for like 30 seconds. Was fucking flabbergasted.