Range Changes

Nemutaur

Siana said:

Mizik said:

Siana said:

I'm pretty sure this makes serpents better, or at least on par with monks in ranged combat, so yay!

LoS Kai Choke > LoS Snipe

But does it give afflictions? (Actual question)

No, it's just straight damage. But if the person isn't holding breath it can't miss so there's that. And I miss a ton with my bow now

Xer

Want more Kalmia arrows with Aeon plz. Where did my double Jesters go

Also, I think this makes Monk range more in line with everything, and I don't think Monks are in a bad spot overall. Kai Enfeeble/Choke is ridiculous in melee BBT and Axekick still potent once prone and a number of other things they have. Their ability to tank is also still insane.

Mishgul

now we need infernal and apostate to be made relevant again

Tesha

Hands of the grave and vivisect off of tremolo is relevant! What are you talking about?

Mishgul

boring

Veldrin

Yet another reason not to bother with combat, yay

Kinilan

Don't cry Veldrin. You can still use World Burn as a win button.

Veldrin

Get a clue Kinilan

Dunn

Veldrin said:

Get a triggered cata offense Kinilan

Not having a safe cata is no reason to not get into combat. 

Sidonia

Veldrin said:

Yet another reason not to bother with combat, yay

Have you even participated in combat since 2700 damage firelash/lightning was removed?

Veldrin

Sidonia said:

Veldrin said:

Yet another reason not to bother with combat, yay

Have you even participated in combat since 2700 damage firelash/lightning was removed?

sure, also since guard following was fixed, guard range was nerfed, Dragon's got their own class. Blademasters and Alchemists, though not since last december outside a short stint where some asshats decided to get in the way of my bashing.

Hasar

I don't see how the cata change ruins combat, or is a reason not to participate in combat. It's now just like the other ranged abilities. If you're speaking to how it changes the effectiveness of several magi in raid defense/offense, well, you can definitely still use them effectively in many ways. 

Dunn

Yes. I think @Hasar is referring to using his corpse to make a wall that cannot be penetrated by arrows.

Jaiko

If we really want to encourage more melee combat then nerf implanted totems. 

Kinilan

Jaiko said:

If we really want to encourage more melee combat then nerf implanted totems. 

Softfocus.

Jaiko

Kinilan said:

Jaiko said:

If we really want to encourage more melee combat then nerf implanted totems. 

Softfocus.

Is only a reduction of 1/3. 

Santar

I remember like 8 RL years ago, I jumped Veldrin, I threw an aeon tarot and he used 3000 damage Dragon cast lightning twice before I got balance.

Good game.

Penwize

If these changes are here to stay, some attention should be paid to the abilities that got nerfed I think.  Crush is essentially useless now, so that really needs to be looked at.  Choke's prior protections against it should be re-evaluated too, now.  Choke giving the hold breath defense was there to prevent a group of monks from entering an area and instant-killing you.  Now, their ranged is more comparable to a group of serpents.  If five serpents walk into LoS with you and shoot you at once, you die.  Five of any LoS attack would do about the same, really, except choke.  If five monks walk into LoS with you, you just take one choke of damage.  There are other considerations to be made as well, but I'm still thinking this over.

Thaumas

Being overpowered spoiled you.

Nemutaur

Penwize said:

  Five of any LoS attack would do about the same, really, except choke.  If five monks walk into LoS with you, you just take one choke of damage.  There are other considerations to be made as well, but I'm still thinking this over.

If you keep this up you'll get kai choke nerfed to not go through shield.

Nim

I like more tactical range, but I hope making melee less noisy/concentrated is looked at too! Maybe it's because I'm Cyrenian but it's kind of rare for a raid melee to involve less than ten participants in a single room. @_@

Maybe the changes to war could address it, but it didn't sound like a major goal. :<

Santar

So Penwize, you want an abillity that hits at ranged for 40% of people's health and is stopped by absolutely nothing?

Say whaaaaaaat

Penwize

Nim said:

I like more tactical range, but I hope making melee less noisy/concentrated is looked at too! Maybe it's because I'm Cyrenian but it's kind of rare for a raid melee to involve less than ten participants in a single room. @_@ Maybe the changes to war could address it, but it didn't sound like a major goal. :<

Lots of people have been asking for this for a while, but suggestions like vision abilities that hide unimportant messages keep getting turned down inexplicably.  Melee is brutal for anyone who can't keep up with the insane spam that happens in it, especially when you start to get five or more people in a room all breathing, sipping, eating herbs, applying salves, attacking, and spamming PT.  That's of course ignoring the lag issue that kind of spam can cause, both on people with less than stellar internet and on people with computers or clients that aren't fantastic either.

Wynedere

Just kill all area offensive abilities including los. Melee all the way, bby! Imagine the adrenaline produced with guaranteed rush groups.  =P~

Penwize

Santar said:

So Penwize, you want an abillity that hits at ranged for 40% of people's health and is stopped by absolutely nothing?

Say whaaaaaaat

I didn't say remove it completely, just that it may need rethinking.  Hold breath reduces the damage to a quarter of what it does maybe?  Something to make multiple monks hitting simultaneously at least somewhat on par with other classes.

Even shield isn't a perfect defense against LoS, since it's crushed by meteors, breathstream, soulspears, etc.

Jhui

an alternate idea that i've suggested to keep the noobs still involved:

reinstate all (reasonable) abilities and make a damage modifier based on the number of rooms away with a heavy modifier on being out of LoS.

That way everyone can help, but if you're too far away, it'll only be a tickle.

Too late now though!

Santar

Allowing choke to go through hold breath like that would be too big of a buff for 1v1 I think. Monks don't need more finishing power after someone stands up.

Also, hold breath isn't a "perfect defense" against chokes anyways.  So saying that "shield isn't a perfect defense, but hold breath is" is pretty inaccurate. If they're off balance attacking you, they're not holding breath, if they're being telepath'd, they might not be holding breath, if they're shielding from your archers shooting them, they're not holding breath.

Chokes in conjunction with other LoS are still super strong.

Nim

@Penwize: Hold breath isn't a perfect defense against choke either. You could easily still use it to counter-attack ranged attackers or support melee combatants as-is!

Speaking of spam, though, I wish hold breath was handled server-side. Like, if you have it up, it protects you 0.05s after you perform an action and recover balance/eq.

Kresslack

I was happy to see this, considering one of the last raids had three monks crushing and choking me simultaniously while I dashed for the city exit to get out of the area for a second. Being across the city, I of course didn't make it, which seemed a bit overwhelming.

Penwize

Santar said:

Allowing choke to go through hold breath like that would be too big of a buff for 1v1 I think. Monks don't need more finishing power after someone stands up.

Also, hold breath isn't a "perfect defense" against chokes anyways.  So saying that "shield isn't a perfect defense, but hold breath is" is pretty inaccurate. If they're off balance attacking you, they're not holding breath, if they're being telepath'd, they might not be holding breath, if they're shielding from your archers shooting them, they're not holding breath.

Chokes in conjunction with other LoS are still super strong.

I didn't say hold breath is a perfect defense, but it is an extremely strong defense against more than one monk choking you at once.  Because choking gives hold breath, if you're curing well with that in mind almost all of the scenarios you gave should only get you choked at most once per unbalance.  Are you attacking? Get choked, don't do anything until you regain balance (keeping the hold breath, and thus immunity to subsequent chokes).  Shielding?  Heal up before you touch shield, then touch shield, and once choked don't do anything until you regain eq.  If you're not off balance, you can heal as much as you like while holding breath, so the monk is doing nothing to you for that period.