Range Changes

Jovolo

You just need to change your view of crush to what the ability really is. A great way to force your opponents mana down, nullifying several classes offences in the process. You can still mind lock over an area anyway, and it's not like you can only start the lock attempt the moment you want to use crush.

Sorry you no longer have a way to drop mana to 0 and still put many people's health in serious danger over an entire area. Ability was brought in line with everything else and I don't know how Monks didnt see this coming.

Everything else has already been pretty much said. Monk still rocks in groups, while hunting and in 1v1.

Santar

Monk is probably the best group melee class in the game.

Honorable mention:bard

Penwize

Jovolo said:

You can still mind lock over an area anyway, and it's not like you can only start the lock attempt the moment you want to use crush.

In the most practical of scenarios that is what it's like, though.  For the first target maybe not, but for every target after that in an LoS engagement it is.  You target someone, the group shoots/breathstreams/whatevers for 5-10 seconds, and then you switch targets because that target is either dead, or has moved out of range. 

Cooper's probably right though, mind locks are probably the better source of adjustments.

Jarrod

So you're saying it's exactly the same as it was before, you just can't start before they're in LoS?

Your arguments are pretty terrible, I'd also suggest changing focus.

Tesha

...why does it need adjustment? You already have some of the strongest burst damage abilities in melee (enfeeble, bbt, axekick), some of the strongest damage in LOS (kai choke can still do 35% or so, combined with kalmia arrows/axe or aeon), jumpkick trains that can do 40%, and if that is not enough melee whoopass, you also have combos that can do ridiculous damage. 

That is just some of your offense. I would be here all day if I listed everything amazing about monks. Why do you have to be the best at literally every single aspect of the game?

Jacen

Not sure how I like the changes. The changes to monk, specifically, I'm fine with; it'll require a bit of a paradigm shift about the class, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Choke got a nerf and a buff, trading one characteristic for another, so I'm not complaining about that.

The thing I worry about is condensing group combat tactics. Range (outside of LoS) has fallen off the map as a mechanically-possible tactic, and LoS (which is now essentially the only non-melee way to fight) was already getting complaints about how powerful it was. I think now, most fights will consist of the instigators establishing themselves in some room, and the defenders one room off LoS, going in and out while the instigators hold down their snipe/shoot/choke macros. An exhilarating battle, in moderation. Will definitely get tiring before long though. And how does this increase incentive to melee? It really just stacks more power into LoS, so there's not much reason not to LoS now, unless you're stacked with classes with no LoS abilities, in which you'll be at a severe disadvantage.

Basically, it looks to me like either you have some monks, occies, knights, or serpents, arte bows, or you melee.

Trevize

Siana said:

Santar said:

...was that an Animorphs reference?

Is it 1995?

My god. I read those books as a child, and I completely forgot about them until now.

Damn. Memories.

Jarrod

It provides melee incentives because you can no long be harassed the entire time you're rushing to a group. Saying 'range isn't mechanically possible' is a bit ridiculous. Anyone with a finger and a map can look at where the defenders are, poke 3 rooms away and ensure you turn a corner (There might be 2 areas in all of the cities where you can't be outside of LoS and still within 3 rooms). Wherever your finger is, that's where your runies/magi/people with meteors go to range if they don't want to melee.

People are still in the mindset of range being the dominant tactic, because it's simple. All of these changes provide -huge- incentives to melee instead of range, which has an infinitely more interesting set of decisions being made constantly. And you know what? You don't even have to know what you're doing. Anyone at all can follow a raid leader, trigger a target off PT, and hold down their bashing macro WITHOUT having to buy a bow or learn directions. If anything, they made it -easier- to get into raid defense, not harder as some Magi might claim.

Quit looking at 'oh, woe is me for this nerf to my ability' and look at 'oh, look at all these new options available instead of area only!'.

On a similar note to range changes, the last offender is Sentinel traps. Unless something has changed they're now the most permanent hinder effect you can setup against rushes, causing a significant disconnect between entering an area and reaching the enemy group.

Penwize

Jarrod said:

On a similar note to range changes, the last offender is Sentinel traps. Unless something has changed they're now the most permanent hinder effect you can setup against rushes, causing a significant disconnect between entering an area and reaching the enemy group.

I'd kind of think gravehands and piety are worse than sentinel traps, no?  Traps at least won't split up your group horribly in the rush, and should really only slow one person if I'm not mistaken.

Dunn

Enemy smaller person >>> see alarm >>> enemy another smaller person >>> group split by nooses as the leader moves.

Jarrod

Also the fact that piety decays at 8x rate if the person who put it isn't nearby, and gravehands is 2 or 3 minutes to begin with.

Anedhel

Yeah, the argument of range not being possible is a little nuts.

Jacen

Ok, I'll give you that "mechanically impossible" is too strong, and I'll substitute "mechanically improbable." Fact is that the term "in range" now only encompasses at most 5% of the rooms it used to (considering cities only). Add to that the fact that the raiders get to choose the room they set up in, and the need to be near sewers or an area border is now greatly decreased, and raiders end up with the upper hand in most raid situations by virtue of a much larger freedom in choosing their attack point and fewer constraints on that choice.

Jarrod

That's basically completely wrong.

Jacen

Mind telling me why? I can't improve if I don't know what I'm missing.

Jhui

totems

Jarrod

^ Raider options basically didn't change at all. It became significantly easier to defend your city because the raiders can't hole up and choke/meteor out everyone who enters the city, breaking up your rush before it even happens. Now you can actually reach them and fight them, and because of totems and guards the defenders still have advantage on choosing where to position to assault the defenders.

Xer

guards

Cahin

shrines

Jacen

Man I hate to admit this, but I still don't get it. All of those are things that you had to consider before, as well as consider now. Only now, you don't have to worry about an area exit as much, nor an indoors room. Raiders have more rooms to hole up in, now, as I see it. 

Eld

Jacen said:

Man I hate to admit this, but I still don't get it. All of those are things that you had to consider before, as well as consider now. Only now, you don't have to worry about an area exit as much, nor an indoors room. Raiders have more rooms to hole up in, now, as I see it. 

Right, but holing up in some random place doesn't gain them as much, because they can't attack from range until the defenders come to them, seems to be the argument.

Jacen

But they can summon

Santar

Lol. Jhui is right I think.

If you mean spark, then what's the big deal with that anyways? Takes like 15 seconds to traverse your city and get to them. With no area attacks, they can't do much to stall you on the way there.

Jhui

think he meant spark, could be wrong

Santar

Ok that makes more sense. 

Nim

Oh no, something @Santar said no longer existed! So... I guess... I will reply to what he now said anyway! Um, well, I don't have artefacts so I can't do that, but I'm also Cyrenian so I'd never have to do it anyway... I guess!

Santar

Since when do you gotta have artefacts to walk.

Jacen

Yeah, meant sparks, my bad

Jhui

I remember back in the day when there used to be area wide range attacks and it was hard to walk places without getting destroyed.

Back THEN, it made sense to not walk.

Anedhel

Man, monk still so hardcore