Range Changes

Santar

If I snipe you and you choke me, I have to sip health and eat moss to cure the choke damage, thus destroying my hold breath defense immediately. Your first choke was guaranteed, and then if I want to actually cure the damage it did, I won't be breathing anymore, so another choke can hit before I get balance.

Are you suggesting that people shouldn't be able to cure while being targetted by a monk?

I don't know what you mean by "heal up before you touch shield". Are you suggesting that everyone in the game has access to transmute 1000 x 4; touch shield?

Iocun

Nim said:

@Penwize: Hold breath isn't a perfect defense against choke either. You could easily still use it to counter-attack ranged attackers or support melee combatants as-is! Speaking of spam, though, I wish hold breath was handled server-side. Like, if you have it up, it protects you 0.05s after you perform an action and recover balance/eq.

Interesting idea. Could turn hold breath into an ability that you activate/deactivate at will and isn't stripped upon doing something. Instead, it simply has no effect while you are off balance, off equilibrium, or have asthma. This would effectively remove latency as an issue and solve the annoying spam as a side effect.

Nim

@Iocun: The timer is just to still allow movement-punishing chokes (although another solution is that it doesn't work without movement balance). When I get home, maybe I'll post the idea in Golden Dais finally!

Dunn

Monks everywhere are already crying.

Sidonia

Except in Mhaldor, where soulspear+choke reaffirms LoS superiority


if we had monks

Dunn

Soulspear + the 1000 Naga do just fine, trust me.

Kresslack

Sidonia said:

Except in Mhaldor, where soulspear+choke reaffirms LoS superiority


if we had monks

Proficy/Brock/Earionduil(not certian what class Eari is now)?

Anedhel

I still don't get how mind crush is useless.

Someone explain, plz.

Santar

Anedhel said:

I still don't get how mind crush is useless.

Someone explain, plz.

It doesn't single-handedly cause an enemy to flee an area in fear of death = Useless.

Kidding aside, buff it back to like a 3 or 5 room radius, since that was a pretty hard hit.

Dunn

Web tattoo useless.

Jhui useless.

Tanris useless.

Narcos useless.

Triak useless.

Mizik useless.

Hirst

The whiners about these changes are those that want to be able to choke/crush without fear of retaliation.  Welcome to the world of risk baby!

@Dunn I wasn't mentioned so clearly I'm useful. Thx

Dunn

Implied, obvious, redundant, unnecessary to state.

@Hirst

If it makes it any better, I forgot you.

Penwize

Anedhel said:

I still don't get how mind crush is useless.

Someone explain, plz.

Mind crush requires a mind lock to be used, which means only a single monk can use it on someone at a time, and now also requires line of sight.  If you're in line of sight, you're generally going to want to kai choke instead.  Because of the nature of mind locks, you can't target switch with it at all, so after your first target leaves, you're either choking, shooting, or waiting to regain a mind lock (which can take forever for unartied monks).

Essentially, in all cases I can think of, I would rather be kai choking or shooting than trying to use mind crush in line of sight.  It still has some uses in melee for mana draining, but you didn't need a mind lock in melee to begin with, and I believe mind drain is better at that anyhow.

Karai

Because choke is far more powerful, crush is only good against classes like Magi where you want to force them to either sip mana to continue offense, or sip health to stay alive, and some instances against shielded opponents where our options for continuing the fight are limited. Telepathy took a massive hit because of this and our lack of hindering ability and largely a lack of ability to chase makes it so Monk offense is really gimped and int-Monks especially are nearly obsolete for all but Mhaldor with the soulspear+choke/crush combo that others simply don't have. Our survivability isn't fool-proof or permanent, it wares down incredibly fast particularly with the mass amount of nerfs that we've been hit with the past year. That only one person can choke someone at any one time was a big enough nerf to make Choke a balanced ability. That and Kai-gain being cut in half across the board and holding breath preventing -all- damage. At least remove LoS and restrict crush to a radius of so many rooms, same with Choke. Ideally that would also mean bypassing area boundaries. Crushing a locked target or choking someone doesn't require that we be able to see them, and it shouldn't. None of this makes sense, either. Crush on a locked target should mean that in an area or a radius, we should be rewarded for having that lock and for maintaining it. This was a dumb change by people who are entirely out of touch with the game, or those who are thinking its April already.

EDIT: So to criticize with some ideas to better it, you could at least allow Monks to pair a choke or crush with a telepathy affliction with the same eq/bal, at least giving some viability back to those who are int-based. And, as Penwize suggested, make holding breath a damage buffer and magical damage, versus when their not holding breath full damage and asphyxiation. I don't know, but at least give Monks something without relegating us to a new flavour of archer.

Anedhel

Penwize said:

Anedhel said:

I still don't get how mind crush is useless.

Someone explain, plz.

Mind crush requires a mind lock to be used, which means only a single monk can use it on someone at a time, and now also requires line of sight.  If you're in line of sight, you're generally going to want to kai choke instead.  Because of the nature of mind locks, you can't target switch with it at all, so after your first target leaves, you're either choking, shooting, or waiting to regain a mind lock (which can take forever for unartied monks).

Essentially, in all cases I can think of, I would rather be kai choking or shooting than trying to use mind crush in line of sight.  It still has some uses in melee for mana draining, but you didn't need a mind lock in melee to begin with, and I believe mind drain is better at that anyhow.

Still a brutal skill for dueling, though. I promise any artie monk I duel'll have me begging for mercy in a couple crushes, so that usefulness hasn't really gone down. I don't really like the whole 'it's-not-easy-so-it's-not-worth-it' rationale. Sure, monk range just got a bit more complicated. Working with teammates to LoS isn't that tough. I agree with making it within three rooms, I guess, but tbh, being able to do stupid damage without being in danger of being hit back (at least LoS-wise) is a pretty indefensible argument to make.

ETA: I don't buy the whole 'breathing is harsh' argument, either. If you're holding your breath, you're not sipping, which means other LoS'll fuck you up. Unless you mean a team of monks should be able to dominate any situation, to which I say- anything that forces versatility and good team play seems more conducive to a fun game, imo.

Blujixapug

The thing about monks is that any class that wasn't monk (or occultist) didn't have much to do in raids, or similar area-based skirmishing, beyond "kai the monk" and "watch the monk choke" and "hope this closes to melee so I can do something".

I understand feeling raw about losing super-amazing assets that you've had forever. I don't really care though, because f monks. The jealous hatred that consumed my empathy is too busy sublimating into schadenfreude.

Karai

And you think that's going to change? LoS will exist forever and will largely take priority over melee. So Kai-ing Monks will remain just as much a part of conflict as it was previously but it not only damages a Monk in raids, which I don't mind, but it mangles us in 1v1. Also you have 5 Monks all choking at the same time, missing every choke for 5 minutes during some raids because the others are too dumb to use another Tele ability like I've seen in most cities. I could understand a radius coupled with LoS. Like 3 rooms or the entire length of the LoS but this is a bit much. Because a city is too nervous to enter into melee isn't a valid argument for this.

Nemutaur

Kai choke with LoS is fine, stop whining about it everyone. Think of the lovely possibilities of finishing someone off who tumbles past an area border.

I agree that mind crush with LoS is weird and I would rather have a 3 room radius, but what can you do. There'll be a new set of classleads soon and we can submit suggestions. Maybe a very fast mind lock if the person is in LoS since we can see their ugly head.

Nakari

Speaking as a grove user, these recent changes to range have certainly made me feel much more relevant. The changes to bows made it so our in-class los actually had advantages compared to a lupines, and all these changes to extreme range at least make it so I'm likely to be able to do things more often (of course, this isn't exactly true, as Mhaldor, as is often commented on, does so like los already). So yeah, there will still be LoS fighting, but I feel like it makes certain classes a lot more in line with others as far as range was concerned. 

Just my two cents. 

Bonko

This reminds me of @Penwize:

Although I guess it's difficult for him to do this when someone's taken away his 'Ferrari'.

Platonus

Like the change, area group combat is tedious and this way other classes get to actually do something. Melee/LOS is a lot more fun anyhow and keeps things from becoming a long drawn out affair that no one wants. 

Exelethril

You can still kai choke someone in melee(which will happen far often now) and when artied deals like 35 to 45% of total health and should hit more often in melee as opposed to range(no breath defense from being off balance from spamming attacks), so it's not a complete loss. 

I mean, if any other class besides magi/occultist had spells that do a similar amount of artied no prep damage, Achaea wouldn't be a very fun game to play.

Synbios

Veldrin said:

sure, also since guard following was fixed, guard range was nerfed, Dragon's got their own class. Blademasters and Alchemists, though not since last december outside a short stint where some asshats decided to get in the way of my bashing.

Not sure if being hated by you is an insult or compliment. 

Rinzai

I realize that the monk changes fall in line with most classes, abilities, especially those that have no real ranged. I do agree with Nemutaur though that I think a three room radius would have more utility, because as for now I don't see myself using mind crush, less I'm standing next to someone who shields, and I have no Kai.

Not sure though if I just want the 3 room radius, or if I think it is actually "better" for combat.
 
edit: 3 room in area radius, so no locking people outside your area.

Xli

My (fairly uninformed and relatively inexperienced) thoughts: Mindcrush should be LoS without a mind lock, 3 - 5 room radius with a mind lock - only one monk can mind lock an individual at a time, and mind lock is seeking out someone's mind and locking on to them, nothing to do with being able to see them.

I've no issue with choke being LoS only, the area border thing was annoying (NoT into Thera)

Tesha

Penwize said:

If five serpents walk into LoS with you and shoot you at once, you die.  Five of any LoS attack would do about the same, really, except choke.  If five monks walk into LoS with you, you just take one choke of damage.  There are other considerations to be made as well, but I'm still thinking this over.

It is not all about five of one class or two of one class, it is how classes work together - and monk works beautifully with everything. They can bring something to any strategy, and that is good. The only thing that has been lost is the ability to damage from really far away, and a fair amount of skirmishes occur near the area border anyways. You can still paralyse/paralyse/impatience/batter/confusion/disrupt/paralyse loop to be obnoxious.

Kai chokes blend seamlessly with kalmia arrows, which also blend really well with aeon. 

I can see your argument about buffing mind crush, but the problem is, it was nerfed only in the sense that you can no longer sit and mind crush someone to death from the other side of an area.

However, if you buff mind crush, you are altering 1v1, and mind crush is already extremely powerful 1v1. The only other class that can pressure health and mana simultaneously with near as much effectiveness is Paladin, and their momentum is slowed by rebounding and shield. Nothing slows mind crush. Couple it with the incredible burst capabilities of Monk, and even a slight buff to mind crush will change the game in 1v1 and make Monks even more unstoppable. Surprisingly, that is possible.

Anedhel

Xli said:

My (fairly uninformed and relatively inexperienced) thoughts: Mindcrush should be LoS without a mind lock, 3 - 5 room radius with a mind lock - only one monk can mind lock an individual at a time, and mind lock is seeking out someone's mind and locking on to them, nothing to do with being able to see them.

I've no issue with choke being LoS only, the area border thing was annoying (NoT into Thera)

Mindcrush without a lock? You crazy?

Karai

You can already crush without a lock if in the same room. If a room away or LoS, you you could always have its affects reduced. Telepathy really needs to be remote, and not entirely LoS. I'm going to step away from Choke for now, because it seems so many support the nerf already. But limiting telepathy so greatly, especially the only damaging ability Telepathy has is a bit much especially when you make it a very specialized ability. Either what Xli suggested or radius with lock AND LoS for the entire length of it (with a lock or without.. that can be debated). Its not instant that monks get locks, its harder to maintain them. There should be a larger benefit to having a lock and crushing than just LoS. Mind you, artefacts should be considered afterward, not in balancing the class.

Santar

Most people agree that crush took a bit of an overnerf. I think Monks will probably see some type of compensation for that, so don't go into full blown panic mode.

Draqoom

I don't think it's nearly as bad as people are saying.

Choke is better now than it was before especially in regards to area borders.

I do think the crush nerf though was a bit much considering it requires a mind lock if they aren't right next to you.

Still. Monks are going to be fine.