Serpent Thievery Buff

Strata

Makarios said:

While its a nice thought on paper, it'd never be a viable change because if server side curing was more vulnerable to a mechanic, people would simply take a similarly stable option (client side) that didn't suffer from said vulnerability. The only way to make server side curing a long term good choice for everyone (and to theoretically develop mechanics specifically assuming people were using it) would be to make it superior to client side curing, which would necessitate said mechanics not actually being particularly useful.

There is the latency issue, but again it mostly comes down to target audience. Such a system would need a self imposed latency (in terms of the update rate), and it would likely be so close to your average US player's (the majority of the playerbase) that they'd gain very little in that respect, and could potentially be getting slower.

The long and short of it is that we would likely have to sacrifice a lot of cool and unique things (illusions, masked afflictions, etc) to create an actual dynamic and potent server side curing system, and it'd probably detract just as much (if not more, depending on  your opinion) than was gained from it.

I am impressed by this. Very surprised you mentioned the latency issue. There would absolutely have to be a "self imposed latency" otherwise it, as small for some people as it may seem, could be an unfair advantage over client side curing.

One thing that would be very helpful for newer players would be a server side curing system that they can configure on or off. This system would ONLY cure afflictions from denizens and NOT from other players. The player would have to hold the necessary curatives. Isn't (or wasn't) there a trigger pack for nexus in the works for this type of stuff though?

Anaidiana

As someone who runs ceremonies for house/order/city/weddings, I would hate to see illusions as a whole disappear entirely, simply because even as awesome as emote system 3.0 is, sometimes you want that extra little 'oomph' you can get.

Strata

Getting rid of illusions would be the last straw for me. There would be no point in playing serpent anymore. Would trade-in all my arties for monk toys and just F1 lolbash people and tell everyone I have skills.

Anaidiana

Strata said:

Getting rid of illusions would be the last straw for me. There would be no point in playing serpent anymore. Would trade-in all my arties for monk toys and just F1 lolbash people and tell everyone I have skills.

shhhhh, stop giving away my combat strategy. Geeez!

 

Arditi

Okay, screw all of your whining about what's a nerf and what's a buff.

With masterful dexterity, you liberate a blue-banded falcon from the clutches of Noonze.

Antidas

Arditi said:

Okay, screw all of your whining about what's a nerf and what's a buff.

With masterful dexterity, you liberate a blue-banded falcon from the clutches of Noonze.

Above is a log of the only time pickpocketing targetted items has worked ever.

Edit: to clarify, I do not think this was a nerf. I'm quite happy that they are making efforts to make theft more balanced, and I appreciate those efforts. However, I do think the chance to succeed might need to be modified a bit. I don't know exactly how many times I have tried it, but it has been a number of times. And I have yet to have it work once

Arditi

Antidas said:

Arditi said:

Okay, screw all of your whining about what's a nerf and what's a buff.

With masterful dexterity, you liberate a blue-banded falcon from the clutches of Noonze.

Above is a log of the only time pickpocketing targetted items has worked ever.

Edit: to clarify, I do not think this was a nerf. I'm quite happy that they are making efforts to make theft more balanced, and I appreciate those efforts. However, I do think the chance to succeed might need to be modified a bit. I don't know exactly how many times I have tried it, but it has been a number of times. And I have yet to have it work once

Being HL of a Serpent house gives you +20%.

*fistbump @Jarrod*

Mizik

stfu this thread

Iocun

@Tecton or @Makarios:

I heard rumors that there were some plans about giving Thoth's additional benefits to make them worth owning despite a dex spec?

It would probably be nice to get some kind of heads up on whether there are plans like this or not before too many people decide on their new serpent specs and/or trade in their thoth's. I was leaning towards trading in the fang, going dex spec, and letting the tradein credits go towards tanking arties, but it's hard to make up one's mind if there's a chance of stuff still changing in the near future.

Strata

I just want the damage back (or @Iocun's suggested dirk pommel) pretty plz

Makarios

@Antidas:
If you're trying targeted pickpocket without mesmerise, don't even bother. Suffice it to say you'll be trying a very long time. The difference is extremely significant.

@Iocun:
No clue, you'll need to wait on Tecton.

Geraint

Iocun said:

@Tecton or @Makarios:

I heard rumors that there were some plans about giving Thoth's additional benefits to make them worth owning despite a dex spec?

It would probably be nice to get some kind of heads up on whether there are plans like this or not before too many people decide on their new serpent specs and/or trade in their thoth's. I was leaning towards trading in the fang, going dex spec, and letting the tradein credits go towards tanking arties, but it's hard to make up one's mind if there's a chance of stuff still changing in the near future.

This would actually be nice to know Powers that Be. I literally just bought this Thoth's like a week before the changes went in. If I could be raja with a lvl2 and get same speed a refund so I can get something useful with a lvl2 would be appreciated and a nice gesture. I would've had some forethought to this if it were more apparent a huge balance change like this was forthcoming so soon to me..

Antidas

@Makarios I don't think I've tried a single time without mesmerise, but I'll keep that in mind.

Geraint

Bump?

Sylvance

Geraint said:

Bump?

Issue yourself in game, buddy.

Strata

Geraint said:

Iocun said:

@Tecton or @Makarios:

I heard rumors that there were some plans about giving Thoth's additional benefits to make them worth owning despite a dex spec?

It would probably be nice to get some kind of heads up on whether there are plans like this or not before too many people decide on their new serpent specs and/or trade in their thoth's. I was leaning towards trading in the fang, going dex spec, and letting the tradein credits go towards tanking arties, but it's hard to make up one's mind if there's a chance of stuff still changing in the near future.

This would actually be nice to know Powers that Be. I literally just bought this Thoth's like a week before the changes went in. If I could be raja with a lvl2 and get same speed a refund so I can get something useful with a lvl2 would be appreciated and a nice gesture. I would've had some forethought to this if it were more apparent a huge balance change like this was forthcoming so soon to me..

I agree with this even though I won't be trading in. There should either be a 1-time 100% trade-in value on Thoth's fang for current owners or something needs to be added to make it worth-while again.

Jarrod

Did you miss the part where you're gaining a single CON by having Thoth's?

Please don't make points that have already been addressed previously as illogical.

Jarrod

------
We've just loaded up some small changes, the details are as follows:

* Thoth's fang owners will now always have a slightly higher DSTAB speed than would be otherwise
available.
------

Nifty, doesn't seem to be active yet, but seems good to me!

Tecton

Yep, was waiting on the sylvan classleads to go live in one batch (to save lag) - all in now though.

Jarrod

Quick question for @Tecton or @Makarios, since we have the information on DEX from before this change (DEX = 0.1s, Artie level = 0.2s, get 0.7s total for speed cap), does Thoth's simply increase the cap (you need 0.8s) or give you the 0.1s as well?

Basically, how much Dex to cap with Thoth's? 14 like previously or 15 now?

New quick test:

You prick Fitz twice in rapid succession with your dirk.
5724h, 5038m, 24070e, 19454w cekdb-
[Basil]: Currently off balance
You have recovered balance on all limbs. (1.873s)
5724h, 4969m, 24090e, 19455w cexkdb-
You prick Fitz twice in rapid succession with your dirk.
5724h, 4969m, 24080e, 19455w cekdb-
[Basil]: Currently off balance
You have recovered balance on all limbs. (1.677s)
5724h, 5123m, 24080e, 19455w cexkdb-
You prick Fitz twice in rapid succession with your dirk.
5724h, 5123m, 24070e, 19455w cekdb-
[Basil]: Currently off balance
You have recovered balance on all limbs. (1.782s)
5724h, 5057m, 24090e, 19455w cexkdb-
You prick Fitz twice in rapid succession with your dirk.
5724h, 5057m, 24080e, 19455w cekdb-
[Basil]: Currently off balance
5724h, 5057m, 24080e, 19455w cekdb-
You have recovered balance on all limbs. (1.796s)
5724h, 5108m, 24086e, 19455w cexkdb-
You prick Fitz twice in rapid succession with your dirk.
5724h, 5108m, 24076e, 19455w cekdb-
[Basil]: Currently off balance
You have recovered balance on all limbs. (1.784s)
5724h, 5039m, 24090e, 19455w cexkdb-
You prick Fitz twice in rapid succession with your dirk.
5724h, 5039m, 24080e, 19455w cekdb-
[Basil]: Currently off balance
5724h, 5039m, 24080e, 19455w cekdb-
You have recovered balance on all limbs. (1.686s)
5724h, 5035m, 24065e, 19453w cexkdb-
You prick Fitz twice in rapid succession with your dirk.
5724h, 5035m, 24055e, 19453w cekdb-
[Basil]: Currently off balance
You have recovered balance on all limbs. (1.796s)
5724h, 5016m, 24090e, 19452w cexkdb-
You prick Fitz twice in rapid succession with your dirk.
5724h, 5016m, 24080e, 19452w cekdb-
[Basil]: Currently off balance
5724h, 5123m, 24080e, 19455w cekdb-
You have recovered balance on all limbs. (1.747s)
5724h, 5123m, 24090e, 19455w cexkdb-
You prick Fitz twice in rapid succession with your dirk.
5724h, 4978m, 24080e, 19443w cekdb-(-64m, 1.2%)
[Basil]: Currently off balance
You have recovered balance on all limbs. (1.806s)
5724h, 4963m, 24080e, 19443w cexkdb-
You prick Fitz twice in rapid succession with your dirk.
5724h, 4963m, 24070e, 19443w cekdb-
[Basil]: Currently off balance
You have recovered balance on all limbs. (1.745s)
5724h, 5123m, 24090e, 19443w cexkdb-
You prick Fitz twice in rapid succession with your dirk.
5724h, 5123m, 24080e, 19443w cekdb-
[Basil]: Currently off balance
You have recovered balance on all limbs. (1.742s)
5724h, 5061m, 24065e, 19442w cexkdb-
You prick Fitz twice in rapid succession with your dirk.
5724h, 5061m, 24055e, 19442w cekdb-
[Basil]: Currently off balance
You have recovered balance on all limbs. (1.78s)

Iocun

nvm

Strata

Daeir said:

Please actually try living as a dex spec serpent with almost no con before complaining that Thoths is now useless - the amount of survivability you trade in order to reach fang speeds without one is enormous, and I suspect it may roughly shave a third of your effective health off or something close to that over all.

Both of our arguments are subjective when looking at it from a strictly economical sense:

Thoth's fang:   1500cr (you are then able to spec for CON and still have blazing fast dstabs)

buckawn's spine + dex spec + CON arties: about 1300cr (pretty much the same result but cheaper)

Note: Writing this after the supposed speed-up of Thoth's - but just wanted to mention that.

Makarios

The amount you gain from Thoth's hasn't changed. It will just raise your potential dstab cap slightly.

Iocun

Can we get any info on how much? I'm assuming it lowers the pre-nimble dstab cap to 2.0 seconds?

Hard to test without first investing in arties, and would be good to know before investing in arties!

Geraint

Thoth's Fang, nimble, con-specced dwarf.

You prick Alrena twice in rapid succession with your dirk.

You have recovered balance on all limbs. (2.002s)

You prick Alrena twice in rapid succession with your dirk.

You have recovered balance on all limbs. (1.968s)

You prick Alrena twice in rapid succession with your dirk.

You have recovered balance on all limbs. (1.963s)

You prick Alrena twice in rapid succession with your dirk.

You have recovered balance on all limbs. (2.039s)

You prick Alrena twice in rapid succession with your dirk.

You have recovered balance on all limbs. (1.936s)

You prick Alrena twice in rapid succession with your dirk.

You have recovered balance on all limbs. (2.046s)

You prick Alrena twice in rapid succession with your dirk.

You have recovered balance on all limbs. (1.993s)

You prick Alrena twice in rapid succession with your dirk.

You have recovered balance on all limbs. (1.84s)

You prick Alrena twice in rapid succession with your dirk.

You have recovered balance on all limbs. (1.981s)

You prick Alrena twice in rapid succession with your dirk.

You have recovered balance on all limbs. (1.917s)

Geraint

I don't know. I could just be failing to see the major benefits. I need to reincarnate some more and test around. I just feel if I had a buckawn's my speed wouldn't be that much slower, maybe 2.2 - 2.3 at max. I dont think 3/10ths of a second is a valued 700 credits.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad unartied Serpents can get some speed without having to invest 800-1500CR. It's great to allow some others that havent invested a great deal monetary wise to get into combat before having to. This will help with getting that sort of change.

My biggest concern is that Thoth's Fang is a one-trick pony. I guess any of the dirks are. It's not like other lvl3 artifacts, like ones where you can still use them to shatter limbs or a collar/sash that will raise the damage of other abilities SHOULD you change class. That's also a MAJOR point given the coming of multi-class. This dirk is for Serpent.. pretty much only. I cant take this investment to another class what-so-ever. Before the damage change this wasn't so heavily true. Kind of like bows, but at least everyone can still shoot meteors evenly and fairly.

Strata

Geraint said:

I don't know. I could just be failing to see the major benefits. I need to reincarnate some more and test around. I just feel if I had a buckawn's my speed wouldn't be that much slower, maybe 2.2 - 2.3 at max. I dont think 3/10ths of a second is a valued 700 credits.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad unartied Serpents can get some speed without having to invest 800-1500CR. It's great to allow some others that havent invested a great deal monetary wise to get into combat before having to. This will help with getting that sort of change.

My biggest concern is that Thoth's Fang is a one-trick pony. I guess any of the dirks are. It's not like other lvl3 artifacts, like ones where you can still use them to shatter limbs or a collar/sash that will raise the damage of other abilities SHOULD you change class. That's also a MAJOR point given the coming of multi-class. This dirk is for Serpent.. pretty much only. I cant take this investment to another class what-so-ever. Before the damage change this wasn't so heavily true. Kind of like bows, but at least everyone can still shoot meteors evenly and fairly.

If I buy knuckles should I be able to do tekura combos as a serpent? What if I got bracers to go with Thoth's - then I can use Two Arts too? Your balance recovery is all over the place. And I feel your pain regarding that... I once got so angry with my connection that I started ranting in party about how every time I lose 100ms on a dstab, I might as well light a $100 bill on fire. Try that test again with the server side queue and see if it is any better.

Geraint

You can use knuckles as Sentinel. I think you misunderstood, or just didnt feel like, addressing the point I was making. It was actually two points, but that's ok - you sit down. Dont want you to overheat your head too much.

Makarios

Just to put it in perspective, you were paying 700 credits for .2s before the changes (old level 2 dirk gave you a 2.4s dstab, old thoths a 2.2 pre nimble). If you were getting .3s more than buckawns now (you aren't, its .1 higher on the cap), you'd be way over the reasonable aff output. As it stands the Thoth change is pushing it (you're now .2s faster than old Thoths when capped out, which is .1s faster than anyone without a thoths can get regardless of how much dex they stack).

Geraint

I tested with server side queue, Strata. It's the same, maybe 0.020 difference.

@Makarios Is the Thoth's change a higher cap or a passively faster speed? If it's just a higher cap wouldn't I still have to stack some dex or go with a dex-spec race to see the gains, or is the math utilized for more speed a cap per dex point that is raised by the Thoth's (and met, obviously)?