Serpent Thievery Buff

Iocun

Decan said:

 Nerf, forces you to go DEX specialisation

That's a ridiculous claim. You suffer absolutely nothing from staying con specced as before.

Nerf, pickpocket is a joke considering selfishness.

It may be as much as a joke as you like, but improving it cannot be considered a nerf, no matter how you look at it.

Nerf, Dementia is not more valuable than Impatience when afflicting, and if you are locking them with impatience it doesnt matter what illusions you use because they are locked.

No matter how unfeasible dementia is for stopping lifevision, how can adding this be considered a nerf?

Nerf, Serpents cant hypnotise another serpent if both are trying for a lock at the same time, and now you cant clear the afflictions, only actions. Double Nerf.

Yes, now other serpents can't cleanse my afflictions. That's no nerf to me. Did you really enjoy endless serpent-vs-serpent battles consisting of "cleanse me impatience" so much?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "serpents can't hypnotise other serpents if both are trying for a lock at the same time". Whatever it is though, nothing was nerfed here.

Nerf, does not effect combat strategy in the least. Only added as a caveat.

Hypersomnia and confusion are important affs. Knowing when they hit adds much more control to a serpent's offence. How can this possibly be a nerf?

Nerf, Mesmerise is trans skill that is completely nullified by <100 lessons in survival required by every Organization in the game. Can only be used once an hour because it grants "better-than-vigilance" immunity.

So lets assume it does nothing. It did nothing of particular use before. No nerf.

Nerf, instead of ignoring +/-60% of venoms you can only choose which affliction to cure every 10 seconds. Shrugging went from no cost passive to a tree tat that can be prevented in a number of ways.

Afflictions are more than venoms. Some level of control over healing is better than no level of control. Not calling this a buff, since it clearly does have downsides, but it's definitely not an outright nerf. Personally, I feel very safe defensively with that new shrugging.

You can say this is a buff or this is a nerf, but that doesnt take into account the Class as a whole. As a whole the class is 99% unchanged, and sadly the 1% that was changed didnt address the problems of a Serpent Class in the context of top tier fighting. If anything they only made them worse.

Yes, serpent is mostly unchanged. This is because serpent is already a good class. It still needs some changes here and there, but every class does. Some of those changes indeed addressed problems with actual serpent combat. I play a serpent and I occasionally engage in combat, so I can tell.

You seem to have a really particular definition of the term "nerf". Anything that doesn't increase a serpent's power extremely much is considered a "nerf" in your eyes. Most other people I know define "nerf" as something that actually harms the class.

And why do you keep going on with the "in the context of top tier fighting"? Most people aren't "top tier". Maybe there are none. Who knows! Who cares! Class fixes aren't meant to benefit two or three people, but the whole game (yes, including non-serpents!). If your view of the act of classleading merely consists of "my own class must GET STRONGER" without the ability to critically look at it and consider that it might actually also have some overpowered aspects you will experience many, many more disappointments.

Stop hoping for everything to magically go your way and try to work with what the game provides you with.

Decan

@Iocun

You say "No matter how unfeasible dementia is for stopping lifevision, how can adding this be considered a nerf?" So you acknowledge that dementia is not feasible for stopping lifevision. If its not feasible then why on earth would you consider it a buff? There is no logic there what so ever. A buff would be a feasible option for stopping lifevision.

Iocun

It's not much of a buff, right. It's next to nothing. But as tiny as the step may be, it's still a slightly positive one. Definitely not a nerf.

Decan

So a buff by your definition is anything that is added regardless of whether or not its useful, noted.

IE If they said they upped Viper HP but in actuality they only added 1 point of health you will be here talking about how great of a buff it is.

Iocun

No. A buff is anything that improves a class, no matter how big or small.

A nerf is something that harms the class, no matter how big or small.

And no, I would then not talk about "how great of a buff it is". I also did not talk about "how great of a buff the dementia change is". That won't stop me from disputing your claim that it is a nerf.

Decan

By your definition a buff is something that improves a Class. The Dementia change that you agreed was unfeasible didnt improve anything. Using dementia to stop lifevision is not possible to do easily or conveniently. Such a change isnt an improvement.

Iocun

Fine, you win. It is actually a nerf. Sorry for my mistake.

Jarrod

@Decan you said it was a nerf. You were wrong. Unless you fix your definitions your comments aren't going to be constructive to a discussion of skills or future needs for the class.

Decan

@Jarrod Well I see it as a nerf for this reason: It gives the illusion that there is a constructive change when in actuality there is no real functionality. That illusion actually harms the class because without working knowledge of the skills, curing, and methods one might erroneously think they can use it.

Summary of the current argument:

(Hint Im the customer, everyone else is the shopkeeper, lulz)

Dead Parrot

Jarrod

There's 2 situations where someone is learning the class:

1) Someone is teaching them

2) They're learning on their own

In one case, the person they're learning from should know that it's not worth using in 99% of situations. In the other, the person might test it, and find it not worth using for themselves or could ask and find out.

Neither provides harmful effects to the person, and those in the know understand how the changes work, and that it's not a huge effect for the class. Classes are monitored all the time. It was a constructive change, because it's the first attempt at giving Serpents a way to beat lifevision. If it doesn't work out, it will get changed again, that's how things have always worked. Quit complaining about a classlead session without any nerfs and assuming every single thing, including pure buffs, is hurting the class.

Sidonia

Decan said:

<snip>

2005 called, they want their complaints back.

The 'wah wah all our class skills can be bought' thing is old, Decan, move on.

Decan said:

Well I see it as a nerf for this reason: It gives the illusion that there is a constructive change when in actuality there is no real functionality. That illusion actually harms the class because without working knowledge of the skills, curing, and methods one might erroneously think they can use it.

I actually missed this mentality and all the joy it brings. Only a 2005 serpent would turn a buff into a reason to whine.

Decan

You say Buff, I say Nerf. Reality says it wont be used. Buffs that are not used, or unusable, or are impractical are not buffs, sorry.

Jarrod

They're not nerfs either.

Please stop posting until you have a clue.

Decan

Ok then by your measure if serpent class got the ability to mind lock, yet no skills to go along with it, you would consider that a buff because something was added, even though the ability to mind lock alone would do nothing for the Class

Eld

No, it just wouldn't be a nerf.

Decan

Ok its not a Nerf, its not a Buff. The Nerf isnt the change, the nerf is the fact people think it could be something that will have an effect.

Jarrod

You're creating a false situation to give your argument the illusion of merit. The Dementia change was a direct response to a request to be able to trump lifevision. It does that. If it turns out that it's not enough of a change to be worthwhile, more will be done to address the issue.

Comparing something that does nothing and something that has an effect, however minor, doesn't make you any less idiotic.

Decan

Dementia change does nothing to stop lifevision, if it does then prove it, otherwise your just as idiotic as you claim me to be.

Jacen

Triak

Arditi

Jacen said:

"Doctor, it hurts when I do this."

Nakari

Jacen said:

Nemutaur

Decan said:

Ok its not a Nerf, its not a Buff. The Nerf isnt the change, the nerf is the fact people think it could be something that will have an effect.

Pretty sure that's not the definition of a nerf...

Makarios

Just to clear up a couple of things from the last page:

- Shrugging was around 30% not 60.
- Hypnosis random timings was for everything, not just actions (not a bug, definitely intended).

Decan

Makarios said:

Just to clear up a couple of things from the last page:

- Shrugging was around 30% not 60.
- Hypnosis random timings was for everything, not just actions (not a bug, definitely intended).

True and true. Didnt look up the differences. One thing I did notice though - Ive had to change some hypnosis delays I had set to allow for current hypno combo's to finish before starting a new string. 

This leads me to believe Hypnosis is slower and some sort of ninja nerf is in place there. Could be wrong but I know it took about a second and a half on average before (based on the timings I was using before), and now its closer to 2-3 second.

Jarrod

Previously the timer between afflictions was 3-6 seconds.

Now it's 3-4 seconds.

On average a full second faster per affliction.

Decan

Got logs?

Strata

Hmmm... Is this the same Decan who came into a Hashan rampage just to watch everyone else fight - and then heartstopped after watching me fight @Kross?

The Mr. Decan Danial, Feline Fassor (male Rajamala).

He is 408 years old, having been born on the 20th of Lupar, 228 years after the fall of the Seleucarian Empire.

So what exactly do you do, Mr. Decan? I don't think I've ever seen your old ass on the giving nor receiving end of a deathsight. Since that rampage took place prior to these class changes, I would have gladly relaxed shrugging to fight you. If you didn't have Thoth's, I carry a non-arte dirk as well.

I'll tell you the same thing I told Cobra, founder of the SS (who now goes by @Rip) both IG and OOC: Your seniority doesn't mean shit. Start stabbing people, then talk.

Decan

@strata

I was in that fight fighting Kross the whole time you fought the other guy. I wasnt going to be able to put up a very good fight because I just reinstalled my offensive reflexes and there were some pretty major bugs in it because of it being a bit outdated. 

I didnt see the point in sparring you or Kross (again) because I knew I wasnt going to put up that good of a fight. And of course I just wanted to watch so I could learn something new. I didnt, but I figured it would only be fair I bow out because Kross already beat me, who ever it was you killed could have beat me so the safe assumption was if you beat Kross you could beat me too.

I still stab people, I still practice combat and I still participate when needed but the luster of 1v1 as a Serpent is lost to me these days. Combat for a Serpent before consisted of outsmarting your opponent, today its about beating game mechanics. Your intent as a Serpent today isnt to fool them or make them think your doing something else, its pretty cut and dry as are the methods employed for success and methods used to beat a Serpent. Seems like its a matter of who's reflexes are better/faster, not who actually knows more and can use their skills in a dynamic fashion. Just my opinion on it.

Edit: And yes I know reflexes being better/faster had something to do with it back in the old days too, it just wasn't the sole deciding factor.

Jarrod

It's still about skill knowledge. Someone should go tell Jarrel he should stop relying on his triggers.