Combat Logs

Ernam

@Wessux‌ I'm kindof intimidated by your air of adaptability here... To be honest I doubt there are more than 2 or 3 people (infernals) than can control their offense fast enough between 1.45s DSLs to improvise. As far as I can tell, most good-ish infernals are either executing the whole thing as an alias, or automating. Both are easy to handle in their own ways.

Let's get in an arena and try some of this out?

Wessux

Ernam said:

@Wessux‌ I'm kindof intimidated by your air of adaptability here... To be honest I doubt there are more than 2 or 3 people (infernals) than can control their offense fast enough between 1.45s DSLs to improvise. As far as I can tell, most good-ish infernals are either executing the whole thing as an alias, or automating. Both are easy to handle in their own ways.

Let's get in an arena and try some of this out?

I don't know many good infernals. But I do everything manual so I can adapt. My venoms, dsl's, tumble, some defenses, miscellaneous attacks, walls. The only things automatic in my system are basic curing. But regardless of all that the frenzy two limb setup required 235's and great ping against someone with slightly worse ping then your own. Other wise you'd need faster rapiers or runes. Which its near impossible to get fast ones and weapon runes are dead Jim. 

Ernam

Wessux said:

I don't know many good infernals.

At least we have Vicious...!

Wessux

Ernam said:

Wessux said:

I don't know many good infernals.

At least we have Vicious...!

Vicious isn't bad. And he's ballsy which is a quality lacking in mhaldor. Little ragey, but I think people hate on him too much for that. 

Nim

Yeah, most infernals are evil. :3

Aerek

Arador said:

Yeah that is an example of Frenzy on the extreme scale and it really should not be THAT fast. It does need to be under 2 seconds but that is insanely fast. A 1.6s cap would avoid the OP side while still keeping it viable for other strategies.

Only way to avoid a kill if it is that fast is to shield or run away the moment you see frenzy, keep rebounding up which could screw your own offence or to manual your Reconstructive salves and time it with rebounding or some class specific options like Shrugging, Dragonheal, Batter etc.

Even at 1.6 or 1.8, there's a 5-limb setup that's still mechanically unstoppable without some extremely convoluted curing tricks. As I've said before, I think there's a point where even if something is technically escapable, it's simply too close to "inescapable" to be ignored. Don't get me wrong, I think the modern Vivisect is beautiful, but Infernal is the only class I know of that has it this easy, (2 "unstoppable" Vivisect setups, and they can always just disembowel when you Restore) so either a lot of classes need some major upgrades to get their own practically-guaranteed setups, or Infernal needs an ever-so-slight downgrade.

Also, Frenzy takes no balance or EQ to activate, so your opponent doesn't get any warning until it's too late. A smart Infernal waits for for you to attack him before he begins, which removes your ability to run or shield. (Because he's faster than you and can attack twice before you before you have balance back) If he also waits for rebounding to raise and you break it with your own attack, there's no chance of that coming up in time, either.

Ernam said:

@Wessux‌ I'm kindof intimidated by your air of adaptability here... To be honest I doubt there are more than 2 or 3 people (infernals) than can control their offense fast enough between 1.45s DSLs to improvise. As far as I can tell, most good-ish infernals are either executing the whole thing as an alias, or automating. Both are easy to handle in their own ways.

1.4 seconds, while a short time in reality, is a long time in combat. You only have a ~1 second window to tumble and escape a disembowel, but plenty of folks are "immune" to disembowels because that's plenty of time to react. The beauty of Vivisect is that it leaves you so few options because you're prone, can't tumble, and off-EQ for so long. The only tricks you can try are purely salve-related, and I can adapt to those with a single Envenom alias if I'm expecting them.

P.S. You've mentioned Kai Cripple as a counter, which -can- work, but since a Monk's combo is about 2.7 seconds and an Infernal with 235s DSLs at 1.45, the hit that forces the restore would come right at 3 seconds after you attacked, giving you a ~.3 second window to Cripple or die. Possible? Perhaps. Reasonable? Not in my opinion.

Atalkez

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/c5c80b8c

Pretty sure this is not as intended. @Tecton

Ernam

Always been that way, and works on a long list of kill setups.

Hey I heard rumors about something involving walls. Made of stone.

Arador

@Aerek‌ I hear you but I do not think that is an issue. A 5 limb setup would take bloody ages to do on anyone with a proper parry strategy. In that time most other classes would have 3 or more chances to do their kill chains on you so if you can get to that then damn, you can get the kill unless they pull off some amazing curing strats, in my opinion.

I think the problem is not that infernal has it easy, it really does not. The problem is that DSB users have it insanely hard, and that needs to be looked at.

Monks have ways to stop your tumble, for example, and can do a 5 limb setup for new Axekick in an matter of moments.

DSB needs some love.

Jovolo

How is the 5-limb one unstoppable? Assuming you mean break head and then break all other limbs inside that window of the first and second restoration apply.

I missed the part where you said apart from convoluted curing tricks, but they really aren't that difficult. There is no reason to cure head against an infernal if your other limbs are set up, if anything it's easier to survive against than other strategies. Vivi is probably one of the best balanced instant-kills out there minus no 1.5/1.6 dsl speed cap, it's not even nearly overpowered. I am curious to see how rift-locking will work with new Addiction though, that seems very very strong.

Arador

Yeah I think that is what he means. Would also be stopped by shielding in the head break.

Ernam

@Arador 5 limb AXK is not possible unless your opponent does something seriously wrong.

Also, SLC is designed specifically to allow automation of priority swapping/disabling based on limb preps. It is also pretty fantastic for scripting fake salve applications and/or illusions in specific limb prep/break scenarios.

Lilian

Not sure how true that was, I once had a monk alt and I couldn't afford to get to BBT, I just prepped all 6 limbs like I was a blademaster and did double breaks (Yes I think other then @Nim, we're the only two who prepped all 6 limbs to brokenstar people. We're classy as hell okay.). I didn't have Telepathy or Kai to even stop the tumble. It's just slow and takes some thinking. (I wont pretend I could do this on anyone more skilled then I, at least not the way -I- did it but still.)

Ernam

5-limb axk isn't even possible on two sequential queued triple limb breaks (again, unless they cure wrong - however in this event, bbt is always better to use unless fighting an artied dragon)

Arador

@Ernam‌ Scorpion stance, break head, swk leg arm, sdk leg arm. They should be about half a second from healing that first leg when you Axekick. Yes you can shield on the head break, but you can do that as well against the Infernal so going from the premise that you are not doing that. I am speaking under correction here, last I remember in that stance you combo at about 2.5 seconds.

Ernam

Touch shield would completely stop that. Not touching shield on a head break with 6 prepped limbs would be phenomally dumb.

Also, from this setup, BBT would be a much better strategy than AXK no matter how they cure, unless they are artied and in dragonform, in which case they could simply enmesh.

Also, level one break (after restoration completes, before mending) don't count for AXK. Also, tree tattoo cuts 1.5s of salve balance out of this curing process.

Further, pre-application would leave you with 3 limbs broken on queued AXK. 4 without pre-app.

Arador

What you hit with after and what would be best way to cure is another matter, just pointing out that a 5 limb Axekick is possible if the person does not shield. Back to the original point, 5 limb setups for infernal are powerful but by no means unstoppable.

Ernam

6 limb axks are also possible, if your opponent doesn't apply restoration to broken limbs. Against monks, shielding is part of curing. Ignoring a shield opportunity between breaks is unrealistic. And I'll repeat, even if they did generously allow you to break 6 limbs in a row, BBT would still be better, especially if they don't cure torso first. It's faster and does more damage.

Also, mounts.

Arador

Who are you arguing with, dude?

Ernam

Arador said:

Who are you arguing with, dude?

@Makarios/@Tecton, honestly.  I'd really like to see the damage brackets for AXK changed to something closer to:

1       2     3      4       5
40 /  40 /  55 /  70 /  80

The 4% & 12% damage AXKs are particularly silly, IMO.

Jovolo

You can delay punches, you don't HAVE to use the combo command. Just wait for your opponent to throw themselves off bal/eq and then break. Easy way to secure legs/arms/torso to bbt or mangle or axk

Exelethril

Why do bugs like these happen :c

You lash out at Leviticus as he turns to flee.

Leviticus leaves to the southeast.

[southeast - Leviticus (1)]

H: 6261 (100%), M: 4173 (92%), E: 23795 (85%), W: 18358 (91%) cdbk| (08:13:42.446) 60.2%- 

0/2|0/0|0/0|13  12

Leviticus has bled out, slain by the might of Doyen Leviticus, Disciple of Strength.

H: 6261 (100%), M: 4033 (89%), E: 23765 (84%), W: 18330 (91%) cdbk|ex (08:13:45.307) 60.2%- 

0/2|0/0|0/0|13  (sip mana)(-140m, 3.1%)

Arador

Did he perhaps have masochism or something that caused him to do damage to himself before he died?

Exelethril

I don't think so, he was using numb though.

Cooper

I used to kai choke myself if I got out of the room with numb up and knew I was going to die.

Atalkez

> @Ernam said:
> Always been that way, and works on a long list of kill setups.
>
> Hey I heard rumors about something involving walls. Made of stone.

Doesn't matter. You are prone and impaled at that point. If you can mind throw me off the impale, you should at least get the tumble type damage.

This mechanic is just silly as currently designed. It is hard enough to get a proper dsb, and not even a kill able dsb. Any good monk could just do this on every impale and you're done.

Ernam

@Atalkez
1) Get more intelligence and/or willpower.  Not hard against a monk.
2) Completely prevent mind throw with a wall or door, and force numb/tumble.
3) Fight near an area border and use it to break mind locks at strategic moments (like kill combos).
4) Lunge/Impale after mind throw for massive damage while monk is off balance and can't kai heal, transmute, or numb.
5) Break head to prevent telapathy.
6) Damage stack before your killing limb break chain.  
7) Don't expect on your basic DSB setup to kill every single class / person.  DSB Isn't meant to be completely inescapable - there are only a few ways to survive it when properly prepped, which in this case are far from guaranteed to work, so it comes down to situational awareness, timing, and sometimes luck.  The luck factor alone is pretty significant here, as you need balance to initiate mind balance, which takes a random (and usually pretty long) amount of time to complete, and randomly breaks all the time (making having a mind lock up directly before a DSB actually pretty unlikely, unless the knight has min-max'd strength to the point of having like 10-12 int).

Atalkez

> @Ernam said:
> Atalkez
> 1) Get more intelligence and/or willpower.  Not hard against a monk.
> 2) Completely prevent mind throw with a wall or door, and force numb/tumble.
> 3) Fight near an area border and use it to break mind locks at strategic moments (like kill combos).
> 4) Lunge/Impale after mind throw for massive damage while monk is off balance and can't kai heal, transmute, or numb.
> 5) Break head to prevent telapathy.
> 6) Damage stack before your killing limb break chain.  
> 7) Don't expect on your basic DSB setup to kill every single class / person.  DSB Isn't meant to be completely inescapable - there are only a few ways to survive it when properly prepped, which in this case are far from guaranteed to work, so it comes down to situational awareness, timing, and sometimes luck.  The luck factor alone is pretty significant here, as you need balance to initiate mind balance, which takes a random (and usually pretty long) amount of time to complete, and randomly breaks all the time (making having a mind lock up directly before a DSB actually pretty unlikely, unless the knight has min-max'd strength to the point of having like 10-12 int).

Like I said, the mind throw just needs the tumble type damage added to it on the impale.

Sure break head to stop telepathy, they shield on head and it is healed by the time your breaking legs.

Getting more int at this point means reincarnation or buying arties.

Area borders aren't too common like that in arenas afaik, so please correct me.

Bouff

Every arena has multiple area boundaries.

Ernam

Atalkez said:

Like I said, the mind throw just needs the tumble type damage added to it on the impale.

Why would I take damage for forcing -you- to leave.

Sure break head to stop telepathy, they shield on head and it is healed by the time your breaking legs.

This is entirely feasible, especially if you break head after any attack or shield tattoo.

Getting more int at this point means reincarnation or buying arties.

I bought int arties (and Intellect Crown) to increase the effectiveness of my Telapathy.  If you want to talk about balance, you have to take into account that I am artied here, and you are not.

I also spec a combination of str/int so I have strong telapathy instead of min/max'ing strength as you have (at the expense of super low int/WP).  If you're going to do that, you have to accept the downsides of such a build - one of which being particularly weak to telepathy.

Area borders aren't too common like that in arenas afaik, so please correct me.

Every area has an area border.  Except Annwyn (ugh).

Responses in bold

Also, telesense.  Used correctly (turning it on), you will be able to easily time your DSB kill setup when you're not mind locked.