Walk To Command (Petition for Reversal)

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Comments

  • Jovolo said:
    Mizik picking on blind dudes, what's new
    Literally CLEAN HOUSE on reader players. Not like they can walk by their laptop and see me emptying their inventory.

    This all being said, can confirm Rino never used WALK TO (or anything else) to escape any theft situation ever, but sometimes used GUT, followed by EMBRACE DEATH.
    image
  • I play solely on my mobile phone at this time, the game is difficult enough when I have time to play keeping up with everything. Having the walk to option has significantly helped me be able to do what I need as an inkmiller/gatherer. I have not abused this function in any way for events and feel that there is a better way to go about this. 
  • Man that just makes me respect Rino even more, the enormous balls on the fella
  • Dear Producers,

    Please turn this back on. Look at your audience, look at the negativity surrounding it. Thank fuck I can still hunt Quisalis Den without having to walk around aimlessly (because Grukai map is dumb). 

    What a heavy handed response to something so minor in the great mechanics of the cosmos.

    Sincerely
    Avianca

  •       
    The Divine voice of Twilight echoes in your head, "See that it is. I espy a tithe of potential in your mortal soul, Astarod Blackstone. Let us hope that it flourishes and does not falter as so many do."

    Aegis, God of War says, "You are dismissed from My demense, Astarod. Go forth and fight well. Bleed fiercely, and climb the purpose you have sought to chase for."
  • So, I am late to finding this out and have thoughts after having read the thread.

    1. QoL - No question that this enhanced the game for many. Yes, I remember where the Buffalo roam. But for me to wander around the Sangre plains for an hour (which I just did) looking for Buffalo because I don't know whether they are dead or alive might be immersive and like real life, but none of us log on to Achaea to be as frustrated as we are by real life. 

    2. I wasn't around for the event. It really sucks that staff (paid and volunteer) worked their tushes off to make a really neat event and felt that the ability to WALK TO  for one portion ruined their enjoyment. Doesn't sound like it ruined the player enjoyment though?

    I have been volunteer slave labor staff at other very large entertainment companies. My duties were to make the experience good for our players/members.

    I don't want to the volunteers to have thankless duties, it sucked for me, and it would suck for them, but I'm betting that they mostly all volunteered to MAGA (I couldn't resist) and not just for their own fun.

    Further, how did folks with so much experience not know that WALK TO would work for this integral (sounds like maybe it wasn't however) part of this event.

    3. I just always feel that there should be a "3" when there is a "1" and a "2."

    Hope everybody is staying safe and healthy!

    Simply Prythe
    Channeling Deborah

    - To love another person is to see the face of G/d
    - Let me get my hat and my knife
    - It's your apple, take a bite
    - Don't dream it ... be it


  • Mizik said:
    Jovolo said:
    Mizik picking on blind dudes, what's new
    Literally CLEAN HOUSE on reader players. Not like they can walk by their laptop and see me emptying their inventory.

    This all being said, can confirm Rino never used WALK TO (or anything else) to escape any theft situation ever, but sometimes used GUT, followed by EMBRACE DEATH.

    Does GUT have a better to-hit than REND? Asking for a friend. :(
  • PainePaine Prime Material
    Serverside Landmarking in general is one of the best improvements to achaea that ever happened. No longer only available to people with Mudlet and mapper database or others with their own equivalent, it allowed people without portals or wings to quickly navigate the increasingly large world. especially on telnet/mobile.

    Walking to denizens is different, though, IMO.

    I can't remember when I realized WALK TO <Denizen> was a thing at first but the more I used it the more I was horrified. hunting eidolons? Just WALK TO ABOMINATION. Trying to find a wandering quest denizen? Just WALK TO. Obviously I got used to it, especially on mobile (which I use more and more).

    Never mind that a lot of the time it wouldn't work right, trying to walk to something a continent away instead of the denizen in my local area. But it did help me discover things i probably wouldn't have realized otherwise, at least not so quickly.

    Did it help my QoL while on mobile? Of course! Is this breaking my ability to play? Of course not! I just updated my personal landmarks, might consider buying another 15 if I max these out.

    It also was a way to see if a denizen was even alive. Like the old days when you could ping a denizen by sending it a tell. Oh, the tell went through? You're alive! Oh, I can't walk to you, must be dead. Saves you a long trip to where they are.

    I'm probably the only one who feels this way but THANKS FOR REMOVING THIS!!! :)

  • Horrified... you were “Horrified”, really?? Mmmk
  • PainePaine Prime Material
    Thaisen said:
    Horrified... you were “Horrified”, really?? Mmmk
    Yes horrified like feeling sick, scared, need a change of pants. Not hyperbole.

    I realize I'm rare and a dinosaur but I actually enjoy what most of you apparently consider tedious. Before walk to denizen I would regularly find all kinds of mobs that were skipped because they wandered into a weird spot. After walk to they'd always be killed. 

    The implication of players with little to no knowledge of areas, geography, history, lore, quests etc suddenly having the same ability to solve weird puzzle shit was more and more unsettling the more I experimented with early days of walk to.

  • edited January 2021
    Paine said:
    Thaisen said:
    Horrified... you were “Horrified”, really?? Mmmk
    Yes horrified like feeling sick, scared, need a change of pants. Not hyperbole.

    I realize I'm rare and a dinosaur but I actually enjoy what most of you apparently consider tedious. Before walk to denizen I would regularly find all kinds of mobs that were skipped because they wandered into a weird spot. After walk to they'd always be killed. 

    The implication of players with little to no knowledge of areas, geography, history, lore, quests etc suddenly having the same ability to solve weird puzzle shit was more and more unsettling the more I experimented with early days of walk to.
    I will agree that walkto devalued knowledge of areas, especially since I know what you're talking about.

    I will also agree that I have not been affected incredibly by this, given that I know all the manual directions to everything (even wandering denizens, yes). However, I have several issues with how this is handled, and the 4-5 people who have commented here represent a subset of people who (frankly) seem to be thinking walkto is some great lorebreaking thing. 

    The truth is, walkto does not solve puzzles. Most puzzles in Achaea are not incredibly difficult, so stop pretending that you're some sort of champion for winning "Guess the Syntax," and that other people are mentally deficient for wanting some quality of life upgrades. 

    I think some of this banter is rich since we haven't even heard the administration's side. We were told two days ago (ish) that we'd get a report on this 15 minute meeting they had, and still, we have a few people white knighting what I feel is a mistake made by the administration. (Yes I called it a mistake). 

    I don't think I've been too snarky, and I will agree that there are likely reasons for both sides to want alterations. However, what I would appreciate is more of the presentation of evidence, and less of whatever passive-aggressive cryptic flaming insult passing jabs you're doing here. 

    You aren't actual adventurers, you're players in a game. I'm not saying this change will "BREAK IRE", but what we (hopefully) all want is for the playerbase to enjoy playing the game and for the admin to want to be involved. I feel more (adult) communication would be intuitive for that. 

    For this purpose, I think I'll just do a poll so we can simply see (NUMBERS-WISE so you all shut up), where everyone stands. 

    https://forums.achaea.com/discussion/7482/walkto-thread
    The Divine voice of Twilight echoes in your head, "See that it is. I espy a tithe of potential in your mortal soul, Astarod Blackstone. Let us hope that it flourishes and does not falter as so many do."

    Aegis, God of War says, "You are dismissed from My demense, Astarod. Go forth and fight well. Bleed fiercely, and climb the purpose you have sought to chase for."
  • edited January 2021
    Eryl said:
    Some of us think this a great change that enhances immersion, creates natural barriers that make sense both mechanically and ICly, and frankly isn’t that big of a deal.
    I agree, we should remove honours while we're at it.. How would you suddenly know all that information about someone, without your char even knowing they exist? Removing it would enhance immersion.

    All the various types of WHO? Those are immersion breaking to see everyone who's currently online. As well as what class they are, in the case of cwho/hhwo. This would enhance immersion by removing it, too.

    While we're at it, how about removing the names of people you don't know? Including on attacks. - Hard to know the name of the person hitting you, if you've never interacted with them before to find out their name. Let alone know their face/voice without having ever met them. Gotta get that immersion enhanced.

    It's pretty unrealistic to be able to carry 40 different vials at once, and be able to correctly identify which is which in a split second. On top of the 10s/100s of cures we're also lugging around. To enhance immersion they should change it so that you can only carry around a few vials at once, or have an increasing chance of getting the wrong one. Wanna sip health? Sorry, that was voyria. Oops, need to sip immunity for that? Sorry, that was caloric.

    Also you shouldn't be able to do pretty much anything if all your limbs are broken, and you're impaled on the ground. How're you gonna apply salves in that state? You should immediately die, it's immersion breaking that this exists.

    Disappearing from Achaea for now. See you, space cowboy.


    smileyface#8048 if you wanna chat.

  • edited January 2021
    Paine said:
    Thaisen said:
    Horrified... you were “Horrified”, really?? Mmmk
    Yes horrified like feeling sick, scared, need a change of pants. Not hyperbole.

    I realize I'm rare and a dinosaur but I actually enjoy what most of you apparently consider tedious. Before walk to denizen I would regularly find all kinds of mobs that were skipped because they wandered into a weird spot. After walk to they'd always be killed. 

    The implication of players with little to no knowledge of areas, geography, history, lore, quests etc suddenly having the same ability to solve weird puzzle shit was more and more unsettling the more I experimented with early days of walk to.

    Simple then, if you enjoy the tedious then simply don't use WALKTO...not sure what is so hard about that...here this should help...

    Alias pattern: ^WALKTO (.+)$
    Script: echo('\nYou have no idea where that is...")

    Enjoy!

    Edit: This solution is duel purpose too for those of you with "immersion issues"...free of charge!
  • Reyson said:
    "It doesn't personally affect me, so it's fine."

    This is not at all my argument.  My argument is: The premise that the entire playerbase is outraged and therefore this should be reverted is faulty.  Other than my snark at the bottom, this is the only argument I've presented here (here as in like, this afternoon).

    The problem with this kind of discourse is the same problem that we have with a lot of conversations about serious topics in the real world, and that's that we like to pretend that positions are of equal value. They're not. 

    You're right, the problem with the discourse you are highlighting is that it is faulty and lacking of empathy.  This is why it's not my argument.  I would never present a change as good because "it doesn't personally affect me, so it's fine."  That's bad reasoning.

    Earlier in this thread, I did mention this change does not affect me.  However, that was presented in the context of not understanding why the level of outrage is so high.  It is not my argument by any means of the word; it was me expressing my honest confusion at the level of outrage over a change that I feel is not nearly as impactful as it's being presented.

    If you are new to Achaea, playing on Nexus, or don't particularly want to spend time to transition to mudlet, or only play casually, or just don't like to code, should your life personally be made more difficult because someone else doesn't think that being able to check that an NPC is alive with WALK TO is 'immersive' (even though, as I've said before, you can know someone's name, age, accomplishments, titles, weapon name, experience, explorer, PK, PKdeaths, etc. ranks, their citizenship, House membership, etc. etc. at a glance, which makes that particular brand of 'immersion breaking' asinine, frankly)? 

    No, that doesn't seem fair. 

    I have seen this argument so many times lately, and I think it also has a faulty premise.  All of those things can be found by HONOURS <PERSON>.  From the help file, the purpose is: "Use HONOURS (same as HONOURSB) to see some publicly available information."

    All information in HONOURS is publicly available, and I can only HONOURS particular denizens of incredible notable importance.  A running theme of Achaea is that adventurers are somehow "more" than the other sentient life.  It only makes sense that these adventurers, who literally enter Achaea being fully announced after eliminating a clear, present, and dire threat to their city, be recognized for their deeds.  We are the cream of the crop; of course we know who each other are.  They are the lifeblood of my home or of someone else's home.  It only makes sense that we talk to each other and spread this sort of gossip.  I'd also like to point out that HONOURS does not give all the information about an adventurer, only those things that the rest of the world might know or could share about you.  You can't find the title of an adventurer that literally no one has seen or heard of by HONOURS them.

    What is truly 'asinine' is the belief that all this information is somehow equal in scope, meaning, or difficulty in assessing, because it's not.  At all.  If I want to know someone's birthday in real life, I just hope online, call them, look it up, or ask a friend.  If I want to know if someone is standing at the edge of a lake fifteen miles away (obviously without connectivity), I can't do that.  I'd have to travel to the lake, look for them, and then assume they weren't there if I couldn't find them.

    It's funny that people weren't regularly complaining about this while WALK TO was working, for years and years. I check IDEAS pretty often, never saw one for deleting WALK TO. I don't think I ever saw a forums thread about it, though I might've missed it. 

    Things that don't affect much don't get talked about much.  WALK TO, though not something that I find necessary or particularly fitting, didn't really cause any problems for anyone.  Why would people complain about a quality of life adjustment that's not actively causing issues? 

    Unfortunately, now that is has caused issues, we need to have an uncomfortable conversation about it.


    No, it's not the whole playerbase. There are also a lot of people who don't like this change who haven't posted here. And just because you're personally fine with it, it doesn't mean it's a good change. Just like my not liking it means it's a bad change. If in doubt, why not err on the side of additional convenience? If you don't want to use WALK TO, don't use WALK TO? It's hard to see how Joe or Bob using WALK TO ruins your game experience. Unless you mean you don't like having competition for things, and making it more obtuse will reduce competition for NPCs of certain stripes, which... I dunno, man. That's a weak argument.

    I believe I have already explained that this is not at all my argument.

    Edit: Grammar thingies.
    The body of my post is too short.
  • You can check where anyone on-plane is, but you can't check where a denizen is, or if they're alive, when everyone has access to FARSEE or a class-specific location ability? That's more immersion-breaking than me remembering the name of a weapon I truly don't care about (and I can definitely promise you that my character has zero reason to remember every Tom, Dick, and Gerry's Blademaster sword, since 99% of them are utterly irrelevant, and that's certainly not on HONOURS)? Hell, most sense abilities are faster even than HONOURS, and it's much easier information to parse. I can guarantee that if I had to remember every person's title, allegiances, experience rank, explorer rank, etc. etc., I'd not be able to retain it for more than the immediate circle I spend a lot of time with.

    The argument that you 'can't find out someone's location IRL' when we play a game where people locate each other via magic all the time is... I don't even know what, frankly. 

    If you want to put the limitations of FARSEE on WALK TO, that's completely fine by me. 

    In itself, WALK TO is no more immersion breaking than a whole slew of other things Acheans are able to (and regularly) do, day in and day out. 
  • Saonji said:
    Eryl said:
    Some of us think this a great change that enhances immersion, creates natural barriers that make sense both mechanically and ICly, and frankly isn’t that big of a deal.
    I agree, we should remove honours while we're at it.. How would you suddenly know all that information about someone, without your char even knowing they exist? Removing it would enhance immersion.

    All the various types of WHO? Those are immersion breaking to see everyone who's currently online. As well as what class they are, in the case of cwho/hhwo. This would enhance immersion by removing it, too.

    You can't see everyone who's online.  You can see those who are not obscuring their location while on the same plane.  Every adventurer can and will eventually learn how to locate a specific adventurer, and there's even an herb that expands your mind to allow you to sense their locations (so long as they are, again, not obscuring them).  It is not a large leap of logic to assume this is simply the natural law of the world, as I can follow the same set of basic principles to know the conditions required to locate someone.

    While we're at it, how about removing the names of people you don't know? Including on attacks. - Hard to know the name of the person hitting you, if you've never interacted with them before to find out their name. Let alone know their face/voice without having ever met them. Gotta get that immersion enhanced.

    It's not hard to know your name.  I've heard it whispered on the streets of Hashan, Ashtan, Targossas, Eleusis, Mhaldor, and Cyrene.  You saved your entire city from a legitimate and dire threat, and you were publicly acknowledged.  If I can know who's fucking whom in what bed just by a little curious digging, it makes perfect sense for the whispers of your name/appearance/ability to get back to me.

    It's pretty unrealistic to be able to carry 40 different vials at once, and be able to correctly identify which is which in a split second. On top of the 10s/100s of cures we're also lugging around. To enhance immersion they should change it so that you can only carry around a few vials at once, or have an increasing chance of getting the wrong one. Wanna sip health? Sorry, that was voyria. Oops, need to sip immunity for that? Sorry, that was caloric.

    Weird, because on my desk at school, I keep all my important teacher pens and markers organized and well kept, that way I don't have to look to grab what I need.  Green marker is in spot 1, yellow marker in spot 2, red marker in spot 3.  When we start doing five phoneme words, the order will change to green > blue > yellow > orange > red.  When it comes to keeping me alive in the middle of a fight, of course I have my vials and curatives organized, ready to go, and enough muscle memory to just grab them.  In fact, inside my rift, they are all nestled in neat little bundles and always in the exact same order.  

    Also you shouldn't be able to do pretty much anything if all your limbs are broken, and you're impaled on the ground. How're you gonna apply salves in that state? You should immediately die, it's immersion breaking that this exists.

    It's immersion breaking that you have rats with tentacles just walking around your streets.  Only it's not, because Achaea doesn't follow the natural laws of the real world.  Which is probably a good thing, because then we would just be playing IRL simulator.

    Much like watching a movie, this is also where you're required a level of suspending your disbelief.  What do you want to choose to overlook to enjoy yourself?  For me, being able to discern the exact location and title of a denizen I have never seen or heard of is... not okay.

    Again, the sheer level of outrage and pissed offness that's happening is absolutely mind boggling to me.  Yes, this change severely hampered many peoples QoL.  The question is now, was your quality of life too high?  The admin's answer is yes.  My answer is also yes.  We haven't even had a chance to read Makarios' analysis of why this change happened.  We don't even know if this is a permanent change or a temporary one until they add in a permanent one.  We're all operating under assumptions that Makarios himself has said are untrue.

    Temper your rage and direct your arguments to the actual, legitimate reasons this change was made.  Stop shitting on the people who are trying to make the game a good place.  They don't hate you, they're not trying to ruin your game, and they sure as hell don't want to drive new players away.
    The idea I that I must agree with the rest of your post because I think this is a good change for immersion is flawed, disingenuous, and a slippery slope.

    Contrary to popular opinion, apparently, you can choose to suspend your disbelief for one thing and not another based on a list of personal criteria.  That's what I do, and what I've tried to explain in my reply to Reyson.  But just for fun, see my direct justifications.
  • ArchaeonArchaeon Ur mums house lol
    Reyson said:
    Tom, Dick, and Gerry
    the fuck is wrong with you son
  • I do appologise for the delays here. I had every intention of getting this posted yesterday, but apparently I cursed myself and ended up coming down with something that basically sent me off to sleep from post jars release until a few hours ago. Anyhow, better late than never I suppose. This is quite verbose, but I felt it prudent to give some background.

    I could wax at some length (as I do enjoy doing) about how walkto has been a major headache for us over the years, and how the latest instance was just the straw that finally got us to talking about it. I don't think an itemised list of the various situations where walkto has been an issue for the game is really conducive to what we are trying to convey here though, so I will talk about something completely different. Bear with me.

    When we make a change such as this, one of the foremost considerations always has to be longevity. The goal is always to ensure Achaea is still here however many years down the line: be that five, ten, twenty, pick your timeframe. We strongly believe (and have good reason to) that world integrity and player investment is critical to this.

    Integrity: I'll confine this to IRE games, but I'm sure many of you will have experienced similar in other games (particularly muds). When the world becomes too sterile (for want of a better word), the game as a whole suffers. We have all likely been through eras in our online rp game of choice where the world just does not feel alive (Achaea's certainly had a couple of periods like that), and people are just going through the motions. It is our belief this is one of the worst danger signs for a game such as ours, and walkto denizen was way into the realm of hands off keyboard. I could write a whole post on this alone, so I'll leave that there.

    Investment: When I say investment in this context I do not mean monitary (though of course that helps!), but rather that players are invested in the world itself. This is something close to my heart personally as I believe it is the true danger of combat automation as well: investment (I hesitate to call it ego, because its not really the same) is something that gives a person a tangible and measurable feeling of value in the world.

    Agency: differing levels of agency in the world are good. It gives the individual personal value in the context of the world as a product of their particular skillset, which feeds back into the living world aspect as well as making them invested (because hey, they are really good at this particular thing). The key here is that: (1) everyone has the same tools, and (2) as far as is possible, everyone starts out at the same place (obviously some people are better predisposed to certain things, and we can't really influence that).

    So, how do these apply?

    Integrity: this is first on my list but should have been last, because its the next two that directly influence this in this case.

    Investment/agency: I think most people (certainly people engaged in the combat side of the game) would agree that getting good at pk is a worthwhile experience for those who enjoy that side of things. Players historically do not like when the skill aspects of this are trivialised: it devalues not only existing skills (personal, not mechanical) that have been developed and also just makes becoming genuinely good at it feel less good. I could talk about examples here (serverside curing is one that many of you may be familiar with), but there are two core take aways here: (1) this applies to all areas of the game. Someone being excellent at finding x y or z is a thing we don't wish to trivialise. (2): compromise is at the heart of this. More on compromise below.

    Compromise: there is a critical balance to be struck between all of the above considerations and the fact that Achaea is a complex game with many barriers to entry. We appreciate this one likely stings more than a lot of changes like these because its something being taken away; but its also worth noting that one of the original significant motivations for walkto denizen was because we did not have the facilities to enable walkto areas (announce 4175 and announce 4524 for anyone interested in the timeline there). We feel that walkto area is not only a far saner concept, but a pretty good compromise that doesn't particularly devalue any aspects of the game (world based or personal based). Static landmarks are a much better middle ground we feel, and retain a high degree of value in geographical skills without making it cripplingly difficult to navigate the vast world as a newer player.

    All of this said, of course this might not be perfect. There are always ways to improve on things like this, and if something comes to light that is particularly compelling or something we have just missed (it has been known to happen), we'll make adjustments.

    Addendum 1: we should not have posted this in the changelog and it should have been an announce post with an explanation of reasoning. The changelog is a really useful feature for us to quickly show you what's changed, but we'll be more mindful going forward of using it for stuff like this where the subject is deserving of a lengthier explanation.

    Addendum 2: I like combat so I use it for all my examples. Substitute your favourite system of choice be it mining, ships, whatever. I'm told some people like ships...

  • edited January 2021
    Makarios said:
    I do appologise for the delays here...
    Thank you for the response and reasoning, I don't think the delay was really long. 

    I suppose my only question is, are you guys considering implementation on walkto area? Before, if I recall correctly, there were 100 rooms that had to be between yourself and a denizen before you got the "you are too far from x". At the risk of sounding dumb, couldn't you restrict it to 25 rooms and then hide the line that says "you are too far from x"?
    The Divine voice of Twilight echoes in your head, "See that it is. I espy a tithe of potential in your mortal soul, Astarod Blackstone. Let us hope that it flourishes and does not falter as so many do."

    Aegis, God of War says, "You are dismissed from My demense, Astarod. Go forth and fight well. Bleed fiercely, and climb the purpose you have sought to chase for."
  • edited January 2021
    Eryl said:
    To all of you saying “Listen to your playerbase! They hate this! Change it back! Look at all this negativity!”

    For every one person who has posted in this thread that they hate this change, you could probably find someone who appreciates it.

    The entire playerbase does not hate this change. The entire playerbase is not ranting in this thread.

    Some of us think this a great change that enhances immersion, creates natural barriers that make sense both mechanically and ICly, and frankly isn’t that big of a deal.

    This is a little snarky, I will wholly admit, but it’s really highlighting a double standard here: automation is okay unless it kills me.

    As with any change to the game, there will be those who hate it, those who like it, and those who aren't particularly bothered. No one's argued that everyone has one opinion or another.

    However, the existence of people who like the change doesn't mean that the change was justified or good. And while I'm certain that the admin will justify their decision on the basis of the players who do like it, we shouldn't adopt the fallacy of assuming that because there are people on both sides, that there is an even split of opinion. In my own experience, I've seen very few people saying that this change is great, but we'd need some real polling to tell for sure.

    But the bigger question, in my mind, is what a change like this does for retention. Sure, there are people who like this change, but how many people were going to quit the game or not start playing because of a robust walkto system, versus how many people could quit or not start playing because of the lack of quality of life? Again, I won't pretend to have data here, but I feel the most common-sense answer is that new players are more frequently the ones who would want a system like this.

    Finally, I don't think that anyone's actually suggesting that the admin don't want to make the game a better place, or that they honestly don't think that this change will make the game a better place. However, many of the actions of the admin over the last several years have lead me to believe that the admin's view on what Achaea should be like may be quite different than what I, as a player, think would make the game fun, and I know I'm not alone in that.
  • edited January 2021
    So, anyone got any fun walk-to scripts they can throw my way? Cus I don't log in to spend hours checking every room of an area for a single mob that might wander around from its room inbetween my moving.
    Either that or I would like a refund on my gathering now that it's much harder to get reagents. :v 
  • Mudlet or Nexus? I've got a script that makes a database of what areas denizens are in. I could clean that up a bit and expand it to record room IDs for the mudlet mapper.

    However, that wouldn't fix the issue with wandering mobs, I don't think it's possible to script for that, short of something that walks between all possible rooms they can be in.
  • Yep, try to force players into doing something that they simply do not want to do and you will certainly have them creating scripts to get around it. I can see that, maybe, the intentions are not malicious. But, and this is a big but, this is also not a job. We are here to have fun.

    I am going to venture that most of us started playing muds as teens, back years ago. We are now adults, some with families, and we frankly don't have the patience to do what we once did. Real time and effort spent on a hobby has to be motivated by the level of enjoyment received. Tedious actions do not generate enjoyment, the effect is often resentment.

    An example of this is house advancement tasks. Depending on what they are and how they are implemented, some players just go through the list, in a quick effort to 'get them over with'. Most of us don't enjoy them, because most of us are not real new mud players. Compare that with what I've experienced in the Insidium house. These advancement tasks are completely different than what I've become accustomed to over the years. They are thought provoking and engaging. They inspire a player, as opposed to devolving into rote repetition. Players themselves also provide a good chunk of the reason another player might remain in an organisation.

    All this to say that tedious tasking does little to create an atmosphere similar to what is mentioned. What it does create is bitterness, resentment, and finally work-arounds to get to what is enjoyable.

    ** send("forummarket buying walkto denizen replacement script. Paying well for convenience and functionality")
  • So, just reading over the comments and reasoning and looking at the poll, there could be a middle ground.

    If WALK TO <area> is IC'ly sane and accepted, could SURVEY be edited to be of more use? Like, for wandering denizens, you could SURVEY and under the usual information, it could say "You see <denizen> passing through the trees." "You see <denizen>'s silhouette against the desert sands." "You see <denizen> walking through the grasses ahead." 
    I've no experience with regent denizens, whatever they are, but, couldn't it be similar to above? And for special NPC's for hunting/quests/whatever? And for ferrymen, it could say something like "You hear the ferryman's voice carry over the breeze." Or something like that. Just so you at least know you're in the right area, without having to waste time search every room just to be wrong.
    And it gives a nice mental picture of an adventurer shading their eyes with their hand and looking across the horizon. Or pausing to listen for a certain denizen's voice over the wind or echo through the fortress halls.

    Anyway, just my two coins.
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo Domingo
    edited January 2021
    @Makarios

    As others have pointed, this will just lead to someone making  a database of denizens for people to walk to client side. If you really actually wanted people to all have the same tools, you'd leave walk to as it is instead of making it so that only people who can code/implement a dB script can have it.

    It's all such poor reasoning. Migh as well go and take the serverside curing system using the same logic you are using for  the nerfing of the walk to system. Would make just about as much sense too, be just about as much of a good idea.

    In a way it's exactly the same problem as with crafting approvals. The approver has their very own idea of what a word means and make decisions based on that idea even if it flies in the face of every dictionary out there. 

    You are not evening the player field, you are not somehow making interactions with the world more meaningful. You are just making it more of a pain. One of the nice  things about Achaea has always been that people can choose how invested they can be in the different aspects of it. Some people want to know every bit of the world and some people just want to get by or focus on social interaction or whatever and that is fine. 

    Removing a convenience I'm a bid to force people experience the world in the same way is just as misguided as  if you wanted to make everyone as adept in combat or as good with lore. 

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • PainePaine Prime Material
    When mining first appeared, most of the areas didn't have landmarks and I used up almost all of my personal landmarks going to the strongholds in the mining areas. Over the years, walk to <area> has been implemented in I guess a hidden way because they don't show up when you check LANDMARKS but you can pretty much WALK TO almost any major or minor AREA these days. I never bothered changing my personal landmarks away because most areas I could just walk to. Walk to area seems a lot better than walk to denizen. Now I finally have to setup personal landmarks.

  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo Domingo
    Considering you have to pay credits to make more than a handful personal landmarks, that only makes this change even worse. 

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

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