Walk To Command (Petition for Reversal)

Shirszae

@Makarios

Even assuming you are right about the change and what follows are actual reasons and not razonalisations after the fact, the change itself is only part of the why people are so annoyed.

The generally dismissive attitude and player blaming on quote in the first page of this topic will still be entirely unchanged, and I believe that is the real reason for the general tone of people's reactions. 

The change to walk to sucks but it's the constancy of the above that really stings a lot of people. And I know it can be easy to disregard since I can be fairly negative about things on forums, but I am by far not the only one to point the recent way of things. 

Dominius

I am interested to see what the real reason behind this is. I only use said commands to see if certain things are alive while bashing and always thought about how easy running an automated basher off it would be. I am just lazy to code and it's against my game moral too. To me Achaea is social interaction, a source of distraction, fun and logic challenges. All those I can still have without WALK TO. Many of us started off by drawing our own maps. I had square papers all drawn out and would need to flip pages when I started playing 16 years ago. What was fun then is still fun now. New players profit from people sharing their experience, code and time. Not having walk to or a curing system won't make people leave. AFK people online and asshole players do.

Keorin

Makarios said:

- The change was not made because of the quoted leader post. This is an easy thing to assume given the context, but as with many things the situation sparked a conversation after the event. This change came out of that conversation...This just doesn't come up usually in an admin context, so when something facilitates that adjustments sometimes happen.

What concerns me just from reading this is that it confirms that the decision to remove a quality of life feature that players have been relying on for years in about an hour of admin discussion. That seems really, really rushed for a discussion that's clearly meaningful for a lot of players.

Atalkez

Gregent said:

Makarios said:

I'm not going to go too in depth here (I will tomorrow, but I need to actually sleep and don't want to walk off after posting a lengthy explanation since there will no doubt be questions after the fact), but a couple of quick points:

- The change was not made because of the quoted leader post. This is an easy thing to assume given the context, but as with many things the situation sparked a conversation after the event. This change came out of that conversation. Often it just takes something like this to highlight a particular topic for discussion. Another example of this that springs to mind was the lethal highlighting that came out of the black wave event. This just doesn't come up usually in an admin context, so when something facilitates that adjustments sometimes happen. It is easy to assign motive or perceived reason in these circumstances, but these changes universally come post fact and not in the moment.

- We strive to please as many people as we can, but we also cannot please everyone. Sometimes players will fall on the side of the very much not pleased side of that line. We understand this (anyone who has ever played an online game let alone Achaea has been in that situation at least once), but I can assure you even if you are displeased it is because we are looking to improve Achaea. You might not agree, that's fine: but there is no motive beyond looking to make the game the best version of itself that it can be.

We'll have a breakdown of reasoning and such tomorrow (unless something catastrophic occurs), but I felt it best to make that clarification in the meantime given some of these posts.

I also look forward to hearing the breakdown of reasoning and such. And if there will be any considerations given to what Rino has said in their comment for VI players. I know 'not all VI players', but Rino's post made many strong arguments, with clear evidence, on the impact this has had upon them.

I don't want to be cynical about this, but I do hope that what Rino said does not simply get tossed into the 'players will fall on the side of the very much not pleased side of that line' pile. Because it doesn't seem very inclusive if that is the case.

Makarios himself is a VI player, so I highly doubt he is going to support any change that he thinks will adversely affect a subset of the player-base he is likely far more familiar with than you or I are.

Colden

You can't base decisions on the 1%. Just because highly accomplished players can excel, doesn't mean that everyone can, or even has the motivation to put that much time and effort into a game.

Gregent

Atalkez said:

Gregent said:

Makarios said:

I'm not going to go too in depth here (I will tomorrow, but I need to actually sleep and don't want to walk off after posting a lengthy explanation since there will no doubt be questions after the fact), but a couple of quick points:

- The change was not made because of the quoted leader post. This is an easy thing to assume given the context, but as with many things the situation sparked a conversation after the event. This change came out of that conversation. Often it just takes something like this to highlight a particular topic for discussion. Another example of this that springs to mind was the lethal highlighting that came out of the black wave event. This just doesn't come up usually in an admin context, so when something facilitates that adjustments sometimes happen. It is easy to assign motive or perceived reason in these circumstances, but these changes universally come post fact and not in the moment.

- We strive to please as many people as we can, but we also cannot please everyone. Sometimes players will fall on the side of the very much not pleased side of that line. We understand this (anyone who has ever played an online game let alone Achaea has been in that situation at least once), but I can assure you even if you are displeased it is because we are looking to improve Achaea. You might not agree, that's fine: but there is no motive beyond looking to make the game the best version of itself that it can be.

We'll have a breakdown of reasoning and such tomorrow (unless something catastrophic occurs), but I felt it best to make that clarification in the meantime given some of these posts.

I also look forward to hearing the breakdown of reasoning and such. And if there will be any considerations given to what Rino has said in their comment for VI players. I know 'not all VI players', but Rino's post made many strong arguments, with clear evidence, on the impact this has had upon them.

I don't want to be cynical about this, but I do hope that what Rino said does not simply get tossed into the 'players will fall on the side of the very much not pleased side of that line' pile. Because it doesn't seem very inclusive if that is the case.

Makarios himself is a VI player, so I highly doubt he is going to support any change that he thinks will adversely affect a subset of the player-base he is likely far more familiar with than you or I are.

That's a fact I did not know. The change has been made and we've had VI players respond in different ways. That's why I referred to Rino's comment, and did not state 'but all VI are now at a disadvantage', because Garros said he was not.

Also, I don't know whether Makarios supporting or not supporting a change personally would make a difference when the change has already been implemented. That is why I look forward to the breakdown of reasoning and such.

Laedha

I'm looking forward to hearing it too, but I don't know that any amount of explanation will do much. This change isn't like death highlighting, which was a QoL improvement and a very limited change. It's a huge upheaval of something that's an integral part of the game experience from the newbie tutorial on up, and one that makes things harder and more time-consuming for almost everybody almost every time they play. There is no way a change like that was thoroughly evaluated in the amount of time between that event and the change being made.  

Ozmatiah

I have a veil and farsee, that is howI make sure Sobriquet is sitting at The Crossroads from Kamleikan, and not hunting even further away from me.

That said, I feel like "walkto" a denizen and it pretty much telling me they are dead or not, is about the same as if I could farsee a denizen and know which room they are in.  I personally never liked the distinction sanely between denizens and adventurers, as they should both be living and breathing.

Sobriquet

Ozmatiah said:

I have a veil and farsee, that is howI make sure Sobriquet is sitting at The Crossroads from Kamleikan, and not hunting even further away from me.

That said, I feel like "walkto" a denizen and it pretty much telling me they are dead or not, is about the same as if I could farsee a denizen and know which room they are in.  I personally never liked the distinction sanely between denizens and adventurers, as they should both be living and breathing.

Great use of the Veil there.. 

#12       Lord Sobriquet Storm, the Wayward Shadow     (7th Level of Penwizian Fortitude)
#29       Ozmatiah Black                               (Champion of the Dragon Soul)


When I first saw this change I was honestly surprised it hadn't been done sooner. The constant WALK TO Renownmob and WALK TO Reagentmob seemed to be an unintended Meta on how the system worked, but then I didn't ever use it for anything else. The more I see how Newbies and VI players like Rino have utilised it seems that this was a heavy handed approach and maybe some middle ground should be brought in. I see WALK TO Seasone still works, same with Vinci and Certiemene so that's helpful for the newbies, I would assume city based mobs are on that list too.

I've found that the hunting renown mobs are alive a hell of a lot more since this change so people were clearly using it to check, but as Rino said, look at the effect it has had on him and potentially other VI players. Just because we have people like Tanris and Mezghar fighting so well as VI players doesn't mean that others can script or use systems just as well. 

Eryl

The VI thing is a non-issue, truly. More VI players than just the combatants have lived without this walk to, some have posted in this thread that the change is not a big deal, and the others seem as though they would be of the same position regardless of a disability.

Achaea and the producers work pretty damn hard to make sure this game is as inclusive as it can be without subverting the innate difficulties.  This argument is starting to feel discrediting to that, and that's not okay.

Colden

The goal of any mud should be to remove tedious portions of systems, instead of increasing it. There aren't a lot of people who are interested in text games anymore. Most go for graphics. It looks like they'd want to make things more appealing.

Jovolo

People have been saying that for over a decade, Achaea is still doing fine. The graphical vs text argument doesn't ever seem to be a good one. I play both graphical and text, I'd wager most people who play IRE games are the same.

I agree that drawing this situation back to the VI players is unfair and appears as an attempt at guilt-tripping the admin into making the changes that you want, as there are VI players on both sides of the argument.

The problem with this since the start has been the communication surrounding the change and the unwarranted urgency with which it seems to have been implemented.

Astarod

While I do think VI players should be considered, Makarios is kind of like VI-combat-jesus (from what I hear) so he should take his own ability with a grain of salt. 

When I started this thread, I simply said that it would create a divide between automated hunters and the manual ones. I think this change was counterintuitive to several mission statements they've devised for themselves.

I don't think it's horridly insulting to say that, either. 

Santar

To be sort of a dick here, there's plenty of total newbs that can see just fine, as well.

Kresslack

As I understand, this feature has been around for a while now, and was widely welcome.

Prior to it, scripting creativeness allowed for what many Mudlet Mapper users might already be familiar with in the form of Room Marks (which are amazing).

If anything, removing the feature after all this time is only going to inconvenience and frustrate the playerbase and have them rely more on scripting to accomplish what they want.

It's just an odd turn of events considering that a lot of the current and highly praised features that have been added into the game over the years are a result of the ingenuity of the scripting community.

Laytron

• I enjoyed the convenience of walkto, it made my life easier. You could track down certain roving denizens rather than wandering aimlessly and discovering that they are dead. Now I would be more inclined not to bother due to the uncertainty, tedious searching and the likely disappointment. Improvements come all the time, sadly I have witnessed that these many changes, compounded over time, tend to alienate old players that had hoped to return to the game. It was good to have something that eased navigation and gave people a mIeans to establish a firmer foot in the world. Its loss has made things slower, more awkward and leaves a taste of dissatisfaction. It could be expected that speed and ease of use are traits to be lauded. I would certainly rather live in a world with the original walkto. 

Madelyne

If they can turn WALKTO on and off for Foozle events, it seems like they could do the same for any other events.

Also, back forever ago when I asked why Achaea couldn't have similar features like Aetolia and Lusternia, I was told it's so each game is unique in what it offers--which makes no sense at all. It would be like Verizon saying, "Samsung users ONLY get these features, and iPhone users ONLY get THESE OTHER features. We can't give you all the same features across the board, because we want to keep the phones unique in what they offer."

Rino

Dear everyone , 

Hi, it's me again. In regards to my visual impairment, I am a total blind player with a basic empty client (vipmud). Reason is that i do not know how to set up Mush. hence, do not compare me with Tanris or Mezghar. (similarly, can't compare an asian product with american product) 

1. Using walkto to check "dead or alive"

I am surprised that you people actually use walkto to check whether the denizen is dead or alive, for i use TELL <denizen HI to check dead or alive. Reason is tell is not restricted by the 100 rooms requirement. Similarly, if I can't see Mizik on QW, i'lll just shoot a "T Mizik Hi" and engage with a conversation with him if he replies. The purpose is not to engage in the conversation, but is aware that he is around, and take steps to carry only few coins in pack. 

2. Mapper 

Vipmud's mapper seems to be vadi mapper. However, since vadi 2.0 imposes subscription, I did not use it. Hence, in absent of a mapper, walkto landmarks and denizen became my in game mapper. 

Prior to Rino attaining dragon, I do not dare to go to wilderness. Reason is i will definitely stuck without able to find the exit. Hence I do not hunt at Meropis, for the journey is 30 minutes by air and it goes through many wilderness. Even after attaining dragon, I do not explore the wilderness as the fear of being lost is still rings in my soul. However, I did took up learning about wilderness due to frequent participation of foray. This is limited to Tenwat, Morindar, Phereklos, Thraasi, and Mannaseh . Yes, i am stuck in cycling Qurnok and Dun Fortress, until Killian showed me Azdun dungeon. Sobriquet showed Lupin ground, but it is now closed. Arness showed underworld and Annwym, but the land is too treacherous, and Arness is now retired.  

In regards to the digsites at wilderness, Minkai actually came out with the idea of calculating the number of rooms to glide to reach Digsites, such as  Rage, and Soul. using the same principle,  I seeked Minsideon's help to calculate the path towards merchant hideout ship. Despite a certain serpent from hashan  whose name starts with letter "R", he calculated the directions to a certain dragon talisman hunting ground at wilderness, I am still very reluctant in going there. reason is a single miscalculation of step means i have to start from gare again. 

Similarly, I don't explore the World Tree much, other than gazing  after setting up landmarks at the relevant entrance. Reason is in absence of a mapper, and PIERCETHEVEIL does not work, i cannot take the risk of getting myself lost. And no, i don't find lost is an opportunity to explore. Lost is just unable to find the path to go to the place you wanted to go, despite being in a familiar place due to disorientation. Besides, would you explore in places where you know you might die irl?

3. Playing with screen reader

I'll be frank and honest In terms of room description. When i first found Achaea  in 2010, as an adult blind (losing my eyesight at age of 17), I am facinated by Achaea's room's description. This include the room title, (indoor), room description, item description, denizen's description, adventurer's description, and lastly exits.  The effort placed by the creater and designers is undenyably immense in creating such a large world, and comparable to graphical MUDs such as the late Ragnarok Online. 

Then, Achaea's tip mention of a blind friendly version, that is CONFIG SCREENREADER ON, and RoomDesc BRIEF   . By not showing room description, I will hear Room title, (indoor), Item desc, denizen desc, adventurer desc, and exit. This  is significant as I can react sort of sooner, especially when denizens are agressive. However, due to the screen reader reading out room name (indoor) and description of item (if any) and denizen, this sooner would still be receiving at least 2 hits before i need to check "ih" for the exact spelling of the denizen that is hitting me, resulting in potential risk of death. Achaea does not have a built in flee command, and depends heavily on my capability of remembering what room did i came in from. In time of being swarmed by aggressive mob, pressing "l" and "shift tab" to look for the previous exit usually results in death situation. 

Despite client has gagline function, items/denizen/adventurer cannot be further shorten because Achaea uses paragraph instead of lines as in AlterAeon. Furthermore, Achaea's exit line is  at the end of arragement, ie Room title, Room desc, exit, whilst UOSS (unofficial squaresoft mud) has exit listed after room title, ie Room title, exit, roomdesc/denizen/ adventurer. 

This means, as a screen reader, Rino is long dead when my screen reader reads "You have been killed"". These two improvement, as i vaguely remember, is impossible on Achaea as it would require Achaea to do a complete overhaul. Yet, since i choose to play achaea, I'll just suck up to it.

You can take this challenge, read aloud all the words on your screen, and only react after hearing yourself. there is a significant delay in instructing the character to respond. 

4. walk to and screen reader

in regards to walkto command, I still remember when i first sat for Crown of merchant Paupper exam. it is i'd say, comparable to preparing for A-Level exam, since I have to learn about the cureatives, elixers, salves, and hashan landmark orientation.  Again, without a mapper, ilearn the exam requirement room by room, by writing the directions in a notepad. Since Achaea has a 0.4 seconds walking equilibrium, I have to insert the directions one by one. this is where the in-game examiner mentioned i am bringing him for a crawl, instead of a stroll. By having walkto denizen command, i'd able to perform the task at the pace which others can do. 

Yes, it is true that i walkto reagent denizen. However, isn't that what achaea is about, getting to the pray and slaughter it before others do? So are the cities trying to compete for the fixed commodities, and shrines influences. 

Similarly, i use walkto to reach renown denizen after learning their nearest possible landmark. However, since i have struggled to reach cap renown on the early stage, I now rather generosly keep hunting renown as my last option so that those who do not do seafaring adventure have a better chance in hitting their cap sooner daily. 

as the help scrolls put it, behind every in game character lies a functioning human being. Just because I suspect I have Online Gaming Disorder, does not mean the other should stuck in Achaea longer awaiting repop due to my selfish reason. 

P.S: imo, renown mob should respawn as quick as sea monsters. 

Conclusion

This may be not relevant to this topic, but  as a highlight, Anytus's  ISSUEME replies stated that:

1. "Killing one another to farm XP or renown, or any other resource is not permitted, this is correct. PK should have an appropriate RP reason and "I want renown" is not that. 

2. "The same thing happens for players who are not interested in hunting or seafaring when those themes come around, they find their options slimmer, or might suck it up and try to experience another part of the game in the way it's intended. "

I believe some would not agree with my play style, but everyone is different, and everyone is entitled to their preferred choice to survive in the harsh reality life of Achaea. if walkto is indeed remove for a better achaea, following the principle, in the way it's intended, it is fine that character who rely on walkto such as Rino are disregarded. after all, since PUBLIC NEWS 20217, i am always preparing myself for great disappointment from Achaea. 

Dominius

I'm not VI, but I'm retarded. Can I have WALK TO back?

Kresslack

Rino said:

1. Using walkto to check "dead or alive"

I am surprised that you people actually use walkto to check whether the denizen is dead or alive, for i use TELL <denizen HI to check dead or alive. Reason is tell is not restricted by the 100 rooms requirement. 

Most people (I assume) no longer send tells to denizens because I'm pretty sure anytime a denizen receives a tell, it pings the Garden. I could be misremembering, but I believe that was confirmed a while back by Nicola. 

As far as using WALKTO to check if a denizen was dead or alive, that part was never restricted to distance I don't believe. Only being able to actually walk to them IF they were alive was.

Caelan

So...  what we need to take aways from all this is "WalkTo helped stop Mizik from picking on blind players".




I kid.  

Jovolo

Mizik picking on blind dudes, what's new

Astarod

I think @Makarios is going to post a blank word document. It's the late HW strategy that has been undefeated by the test of time. 

Thaisen

Spin meeting taking longer than expected...

Archaeon

Thaisen said:

Spin meeting taking longer than expected...

Did u say meet spin

Meriet

One 'benefit' of this change is it's now far easier for someone to lead Zsarachnor to the gates of Cyrene unnoticed... again...  
But I expect they'll just add a 1000 credit artefact next month that lets you farsee mobs and that's why this change needed to happen.

Otha

As a more experienced player who just decided to come back, walk to was incredibly overpowered.  That being said, I partially credit the convenience to me sticking around after deciding to dip my toe in again.

I could see walk to having no limitations for 10-20h of play time (including play time after dormancy), then the new limitations after that. 

Peldin

I agree with the petition to reverse this change. However I’m not sure why Nexus players would be at a disadvantage. I am a nexus player and I have begun going through all my “walk to <denizen>” aliases and changing them to just walking to the room number for denizens that stay in one room. This is actually faster anyway since I don’t have to “agree” to walk to a room number. Walking to roaming denizens is just very convenient but I do understand that some game administrators do not like/agree with QoL improvements for their players and I can respect that even if I don’t agree with it. 

Shecks

I think IRE could go somewhere in the middle here and only restrict this for specific NPCs that are truly a problem.  Personally I don't get the issue since room numbers work just fine and most of the arguments here are just complaints about losing what was effectively a way to cheat the game using a 100% OOC and unintended exploit, but even so - if it makes people happy and there's no real consequence, then why change it?

Kaios

Shecks said:

I think IRE could go somewhere in the middle here and only restrict this for specific NPCs that are truly a problem.  Personally I don't get the issue since room numbers work just fine and most of the arguments here are just complaints about losing what was effectively a way to cheat the game using a 100% OOC and unintended exploit, but even so - if it makes people happy and there's no real consequence, then why change it?

What personally bothers me about the change is it's just another thing on top of the pile of many things that users will now have to create additional code for instead of being able to do something as simple as walking with ease at the on-set of their game time. A new class was just added so most of us already have to figure out what curing adjustments and changes will need to be made in regard to that as well. It is mentioned by the administration and many adventurers to newbies as a way to find certain denizens that they may struggle to locate, and in general it's just a nice thing to have.

I understand that a lot of older, veteran players are not impacted by these changes as much because they have done the bulk of their coding and their scripts are for the most part complete or they use mudlet instead of nexus, but some of us still have a lot to do in relation to that aspect and I for one would very much appreciate not feeling like I'm logging in to a part-time job.