Shop Policies and Wishlist for Player-Run Shops

Rackham

This conversation has devolved into a ridiculousness I was never prepared for.

Minifie

Then you shoot the government. Not hard, militia and then cast their choice of alcohol overboard, purchase Louisiana from the bumpkins and then civil war for the right to own geese.

Iocun

Well, we're getting quite philosophical here!

In the end though, no matter how you define ownership, the fact that cities can seize shops is undisputed - the question is just under what circumstances and in what way it is proper for them to do so.

Rackham

Yes, cities can do all of this. And technically, with no reason! There is quite literally nothing stopping a city from repossessing all 'owned' shops, and just renting them out, if this is the manner in which people want shops handled.

Still dickish though.

Milabar

Each city has thier own concept.  That's what I was saying at the start.  There's no universal rule dictating how a city must run themselves.

Targossas is a city of fanatical religious devouts.  I've honestly ALWAYS been surprised they have ever allowed outside shopkeepers to rent, let alone "own", any part of the city made by thier Gods.

Lenn

Milabar said:

Private housing can be blocked, denying any access to said housing.  That's the same as reclaiming.  Private housing can also be force entered by Council and development minister at any time, proving the claim that all within the sphere of influence is indeed, said organization land.

Perhaps they sold said shop for 100k, ergo the amount given to her

O.o

No it's not. That land remains mine, the city can do nothing further with it.

It's magnitudes less valuable than a shop, both in supply and perceived utility, but they cannot resell it to someone else without my involvement.

(Edited because I originally implied housing was lower demand than shops, which wasn't my intended meaning and most likely isn't trye.)

Milabar

If said land is blocked off, and you can not access it, seems to me that regardless of your claim of "ownership" you've got nothing but a supposed claim.

I claim to own Delos, but alas, doesn't always mean it's true.

Rackham

Milabar said:

The only thing you truly own is yourself.  Everything else is temporary.

DO you though? How do you know your free will is in fact, your own? Are your decisions predestined?

Not sure what any of this has to do with Achaean shop ownership but WOW this got weird.

Lenn

I'm pretty sure I don't need your consent to buy Delos.

Skye

There's a lot of commentary here about there being nothing to stop cities from seizing a shop. I'm going to say that's true. There's nothing mechanically stopping cities from doing what they want to shops except to say common human decency in a game.

Y'all always banging on in rants about people griefing each other and PK rules and shit. That's because the game imposes some form of restrictions on PK behaviour and you all try to argue on the nuances of those restrictions. There are no such restrictions on cities doing whatever they want with shops, but that doesn't mean you don't have to be an asshole.

If a situation could have been resolved amicably, then effort should have been made. The very idea that 'maybe the city resold the shop for 100k' is not only ludicrous it's disrespectful to anyone having to read that sort of drivel. A city can make upwards 27-35k per IG year per rented shop on rent/taxes alone. Most cities will rent out shop properties on a ten to fifteen year lease. The total earnings would have been 3 times what was given to Prythe just by finding a single tenant.

Sothantos

There was a deal offered that fell off the table. You can find out details about it in-game.

Thaisen

Sothantos said:

There was a deal offered that fell off the table. You can find out details about it in-game.

Skye said:

... but that doesn't mean you don't have to be an asshole. 

Milabar

Human decency?  In Achaea?  That's like proclaiming that PK is perfectly balanced and needs no work at all.

The point is in 500 years, she's more then made her investment back.  Trying to squeeze more out simply for what?

Cyrene and Targossas are at odds.  Targossas is a fanatical zealot City.  It's obvious thier decision was made and both mechanically and by human decency they gave her something while being disrespected not once, but multiple times from Cyrene to thier Gods.

Cities have been reclaiming shops since the beginning of time.  If this wasn't something currently in the public notice, none of this would be even discussed.

I promise you, if any Eleusian shopkeeper became enemied to Eleusis, the moment I logged in that day the shop would be closed and repossessed.

There would be no argument, there would be no dispute, it would simply happen.

Much like I'd expect, and indeed have done to me, in the past.  

And just for the record, I have nothing against anyone involved.  I have no care either way.  But to constantly bitch and moan about something that's seriously within a cities right to do, with NO reprieve, is dumb.  

If ya all want to give out your city credits to an enemy, or the member of an enemy organization, that's on you as a leader.  But, if you're looking to dictate how it must be because you're scared one day it'll happen to you, then go back to fishing and involving yourself very little in anything of actual consequence.

After all, it's just a game, geez.

Thaisen

Milabar said:

After all, it's just a game, geez.

Oh, of course...

Minifie

100k sounded fairer than 28000k. 

Shirszae

I mean if people are going to argue as hard as you are that is okay to be an ass hole, there's no wonder there's so little human decency here. 

Skye

Another point:

Adrik earlier on said that shops were rented 'cheap' at 27k per year. I've been approached by a number of cities whenever a lease opens up, and I've always turned them down because I know I'd just be making a loss unless I sacrifice part of my stockroom space to sell something just to make back the rent.

I own a shop in Hashan. Yes, own. I bought it off Trey, that's why he's laughing. I only sell food and drink in it and I usually take in about 10-25k per year before taxes (8.5k).

The idea was to have a shop that I didn't have to worry about the rent and run it indefinitely or until I had to sell it off to make back what was essentially the escrow. I'm under no illusions that I'd make back what I spent purchasing the shop.

Yes, it's my choice to stock such low-profit wares, I just want to be able to run a restaurant franchise because, y'know, that's my RP and I've no interest in running around with my autoharvester for hours to run a cookie-cutter template shop like every other tenant trying to make back their overheads.

Basically 75% of shops are just walmart now and the ones that sell crafted items off NDS PUBLIC to pad their wares are the worst.

So yes, cities can control their shops and set their leases however they like, but in that way they also inadvertantly control how boring their shops become.

Skye

Milabar said:

Cities have been reclaiming shops since the beginning of time.  If this wasn't something currently in the public notice, none of this would be even discussed.

I promise you, if any Eleusian shopkeeper became enemied to Eleusis, the moment I logged in that day the shop would be closed and repossessed.

There would be no argument, there would be no dispute, it would simply happen.

That reminds me, let's talk about Liliana and her Eleusian shop, shall we? I'm sure a lot of Cyrenians remember that one.

Syrennia

Milabar said:

There would be no argument, there would be no dispute, it would simply happen.

Well nobody ever claimed you weren't an asshat.

Bann

It's fucked up, zealot city or not. While RP has its place, that doesn't mean you just just mistreat people willy-nilly. When it comes to someone's actual investment, you should be considerate, even if you treat their character like absolute shit. You guys could have talked all kinds of mad shit to Prythe even while still letting her get her 2k credits or whatever from whoever was interested. The way you guys did things is broke as fuck, and the fact that more than one of you is trying to argue that it's okay just because your city is the zealot religious city is both disappointing and disgusting.

Rackham

I mean, I mentioned in an earlier post that my (almost)reposessed shop sure as shit wasn't going to get 2k. I see shops as being worth 1.5k credits (cuz I've seen em sold for that) and so I offered 1250. If the shop was being sold for 2k, 1500 would have been a reasonable "F U" while still giving fair value to what the shops is worth. The 'she already got her worth out of it' is a shitty argument too, but there's nothing relatable in game to compare it to without sounding ridiculous, because it -is- ridiculous. You buy a SoA and raid for a RL year, did you get your moneys worth? Can somebody else just have it now?

Maybe I'm not jaded enough, having never wanted to own a shop, and never having one taken from me. But maaaaaaan if you can't recognize a self feeding cycle of 'this person treated me like shit, so I too will treat people like shit', that's practically the definition of toxic playerbase.

Accipiter

So, the person listed as propriator on wares is the owner as far as the game is concerned? Like aside from people saying 'this is only a rental' there is no way to distinguish between a shop owned by the city but rented out and one owned by a person? Because it is very rare that I have seen 'City of X' as the one running the shop.

Skye

Some cities (e.g. Ashtan and Hashan) practice leasing by keeping the Chancellor as the proprietor, and then the Chancellor allows people to stock those shops by giving them a key and adding them as an ally. Usually for such rental arrangements, the lease in its entirety (about 270-350k for ten years) is paid up front and includes taxes.

Other cities (e.g. Cyrene) will appoint the shop to the tenant, allowing them to appear as the proprietor. The tenant will pay their rent on a yearly basis. Cyrene does it by combining the rent with the yearly taxes so the entire amount is paid the same way taxes are paid in the shop.

Ismay

In most cases, the shop is transferred to whoever is either buying the shop (owner), renting the shop, or managing the shop for an individual owner or org owned shop. There really is no difference in game mechanics because shop ownership is being transferred regardless of whether it is a shop rental or sold to a new owner. Shop owners generally don't have to pay leasing fees, though they are responsible for city taxes. Owners also aren't held to time limited rental terms.

I've only seen one difference, and that's in Ashtan. They keep rental shops in the name of the Chancellor, while simply shop allying the tenant.

Sothantos

Targossas's city shops earn 10k per Achaean year from leasing. Paying back 2000cr would mean that we wouldn't make that gold back for 2800 years.

That people are willing to vastly overvalue city shops is not at all our problem. For reference, the second highest offer made on that shop was 500k.

Adrik

So to put a little perspective, with help from Ismay...

She just got offered a 300 year old shop for 2000cr. After some digging, that shop went no higher than 7 figures. Credits valued at 5.5k per.

The shop saved 5.5 million in lease fees. So they spent at max 9.9 million on it. Saved 5.5 million or more... And then tried to resell it for 28 million gold in today's economy.

Not to mention how much they made over the 300 years.

Fuck that lmao. If they get their shop taken, they've already made more than they spent on it, with likely even more it they sell it for 300 to 500cr.

Accipiter

Wait, I could lease a shop for 10k per year? Why am I paying like 10 times that in crew fees when I could have access to a stockroom?

Ismay

You pay crew fees? I only put gold in my strongbox once a year to castoff then immediately dock again in order to avoid drydocking. Then, withdraw the gold again.

Besides, you actually have to run a shop to own/lease one.

Accipiter

Pff, have to run a shop, just put minerals in there for 20 per and it would look like it is running but no one would buy anything.

And yeah, galley crew fees are exorbitant and I like to keep them happy else it takes 5 minutes to turn around when you undock.

Thaisen

Adrik said:

Fuck that lmao. If they get their shop taken, they've already made more than they spent on it, with likely even more it they sell it for 300 to 500cr.

Why do you continue to think this argument is a good one?  This just makes you sound like even more of an asshole than you already do, which I personally didn't think was possible.

At that rate....You've already gotten your money's worth out of all your artifacts...please transfer them to me for free.

Milabar said:

But, if you're looking to dictate how it must be because you're scared one day it'll happen to you, then go back to fishing and involving yourself very little in anything of actual consequence.

Holy crap...we all know you are a bitter old man, but this may be the worst shit I've ever read. Basically if you aren't willing to take the risk of losing hundreds of real life dollars then don't even bother playing the game.

It is really disheartening when the nicest and most helpful person in the game gets shrubbed for a month for breaking a rule nobody realized existed but everyone with these shitty attitudes is allowed to run free and spread their shit all over the place, likely turning away countless new players/customers.