How fun the Reckoning is as an event

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  • Aegoth said:
    To me, the most damning thing Keo's said is [paraphrased] "We wouldn't be participating unless we had an alliance with someone else", which really is a concerning mindset to have, and speaks volumes to me about the OOC "win at any cost" mentality
    There are only five candidates, so at least one city would have had to decide between allying or not participating.

    Bitch at the admins if you don't like that reality.
  • Achaea is an RPG, having interesting choices are a feature not a bug. Forcing an alliance between a couple of cities is interesting but the admin messed up with the NPCs they chose to be represented in the referendum that led to the laziest reasoning to make an alliance.

    Players using that lazy reasoning is the bigger problem and that is squarely on the players not the admin.
  • Accipiter said:
    Achaea is an RPG, having interesting choices are a feature not a bug. Forcing an alliance between a couple of cities is interesting but the admin messed up with the NPCs they chose to be represented in the referendum that led to the laziest reasoning to make an alliance.

    Players using that lazy reasoning is the bigger problem and that is squarely on the players not the admin.
    Expecting Targ or Cyrene to do anything interesting or creative was your downfall.
  • Minifie said:
    Accipiter said:
    Achaea is an RPG, having interesting choices are a feature not a bug. Forcing an alliance between a couple of cities is interesting but the admin messed up with the NPCs they chose to be represented in the referendum that led to the laziest reasoning to make an alliance.

    Players using that lazy reasoning is the bigger problem and that is squarely on the players not the admin.
    Expecting Targ or Cyrene to do anything interesting or creative was your downfall.
    You have to give them the chance to change though, right?
  • Accipiter said:
    Minifie said:
    Accipiter said:
    Achaea is an RPG, having interesting choices are a feature not a bug. Forcing an alliance between a couple of cities is interesting but the admin messed up with the NPCs they chose to be represented in the referendum that led to the laziest reasoning to make an alliance.

    Players using that lazy reasoning is the bigger problem and that is squarely on the players not the admin.
    Expecting Targ or Cyrene to do anything interesting or creative was your downfall.
    You have to give them the chance to change though, right?
    Fool me once, shame on you, fool me for nearly two decades, shame on me?


  • Guess Silas was right, Rory really is useless.
  • Minifie said:
    Accipiter said:
    Minifie said:
    Accipiter said:
    Achaea is an RPG, having interesting choices are a feature not a bug. Forcing an alliance between a couple of cities is interesting but the admin messed up with the NPCs they chose to be represented in the referendum that led to the laziest reasoning to make an alliance.

    Players using that lazy reasoning is the bigger problem and that is squarely on the players not the admin.
    Expecting Targ or Cyrene to do anything interesting or creative was your downfall.
    You have to give them the chance to change though, right?
    Fool me once, shame on you, fool me for nearly two decades, shame on me?
    Yeah but imagine if 3 of the 5 choices weren’t specifically city aligned and you had Eleusis allied with Ashtan or something, that could be interesting. The final 5 were picked by the players so you can’t really blame the admin when they gave the option to make it interesting and the players decided that isn’t what they wanted.
  • Truax said:
    Keorin said:
    This really isn't hard to understand. Cyrene's number one enemy right now is the Tsol'teth. The Conclave has been a key party that's helped against the Tsol'teth in the past. An ally of the Tsol'teth is seeking membership on the Conclave. This, as you might imagine, is not a prospect we like very much.

    In short, this has been the first chance to take substantive action against the Tsol'teth's allies since the end of the Wave. Of course we're taking it seriously.

    I may be wrong, but Iit's not that people don't grasp the statement you're making here.

    Of course Cyrene hates the Tsol'teth and wanted a candidate that could help them maintain a strong stance against them. But that doesn't negate the fact that your city had finally gotten a few feet out from under the shadow of Targossas and this is viewed by many as a leap back into that (just months after a lot of silly bravado spilled across the Public boards. Just really bad timing there).

    I disagree that Cyrene has taken a substantive action through their choice though. All you really have is a speculative promise that your chosen contender will help you achieve your aims. It has potential, which is great for Cyrene, but selling it as anything more than that would be premature, and the working relationship with Targossas is tainting it quite a bit, so that's something you'll end up dealing with for a while down the road.

    I honestly don't care either way. Ashtan is having fun and that's all that matters to me!



    I don't think there is even a spectulative promise that Pryla'ari will help anyone. She's not closely allied to anyone at all, but she IS a Tsol'dasi, and as far as I'm aware, the only people that don't routinely hunt and kill her kin, are Eleusians. There might even be a hidden alliance somewhere in there. 

    We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.


  • ArchaeonArchaeon Ur mums house lol
    Minifie said:


    Guess Silas was right, Rory really is useless.
    disingenuous screenshot, that was next to the boss room. 
  • Aegoth said:
    To me, the most damning thing Keo's said is [paraphrased] "We wouldn't be participating unless we had an alliance with someone else", which really is a concerning mindset to have, and speaks volumes to me about the OOC "win at any cost" mentality

    Uhh, where the heck are you getting that? I swear, do you all know how to make points that -aren't- blatant strawman arguments?

    I said that if Targossas had put a Targossian candidate forward, we would have sat out. This was presuming, I think pretty clearly, that we wouldn't have gotten a candidate into the top five. Obviously we'd have happily fought on our own if, say, Targossas had a Targossian candidate in the top five and Pryla'ari made it into the top five too. I think this event would've been a lot more fun if it was six candidates and a proper free for all, even.

    I should keep a count of how many posts I have to make that are just correcting Mhaldorian reading comprehension or obvious logical fallacies.
  • edited April 2020
    Keorin said:
    Aegoth said:
    To me, the most damning thing Keo's said is [paraphrased] "We wouldn't be participating unless we had an alliance with someone else", which really is a concerning mindset to have, and speaks volumes to me about the OOC "win at any cost" mentality

    Uhh, where the heck are you getting that? I swear, do you all know how to make points that -aren't- blatant strawman arguments?

    I said that if Targossas had put a Targossian candidate forward, we would have sat out. This was presuming, I think pretty clearly, that we wouldn't have gotten a candidate into the top five. Obviously we'd have happily fought on our own if, say, Targossas had a Targossian candidate in the top five and Pryla'ari made it into the top five too. I think this event would've been a lot more fun if it was six candidates and a proper free for all, even.

    I should keep a count of how many posts I have to make that are just correcting Mhaldorian reading comprehension or obvious logical fallacies.
    https://forums.achaea.com/discussion/comment/435014#Comment_435014
  • could be this too:

    Keorin Posts: 951  - Epic Achaean
    And yep, Hashan's caught up, and'll probably end today ahead again. That sure was some insurmountable numbers advantage.

    But hey, people got what they wanted with all of their complaining about only barely being in first place - it looks like Aurora probably showed up to tell Targ that they couldn't be in a party with Cyrenians anymore, which is probably going to largely spell the end to Cyrene's participation in this event, because we simply don't have the numbers to reliably field a party for ten days straight (and as one of our two combat leaders, I -know- I don't have it in me to lead that much).

    This event was already barely tolerable, but at least I got to enjoy some fun fights with people who I wouldn't ordinarily get to fight with, and where I might not be one of the most experienced fighters in the party. So much for that, I guess.
  • Aegoth said:
    Keorin said:
    Aegoth said:
    To me, the most damning thing Keo's said is [paraphrased] "We wouldn't be participating unless we had an alliance with someone else", which really is a concerning mindset to have, and speaks volumes to me about the OOC "win at any cost" mentality

    Uhh, where the heck are you getting that? I swear, do you all know how to make points that -aren't- blatant strawman arguments?

    I said that if Targossas had put a Targossian candidate forward, we would have sat out. This was presuming, I think pretty clearly, that we wouldn't have gotten a candidate into the top five. Obviously we'd have happily fought on our own if, say, Targossas had a Targossian candidate in the top five and Pryla'ari made it into the top five too. I think this event would've been a lot more fun if it was six candidates and a proper free for all, even.

    I should keep a count of how many posts I have to make that are just correcting Mhaldorian reading comprehension or obvious logical fallacies.
    https://forums.achaea.com/discussion/comment/435014#Comment_435014
    When is @Adrik the turbo basher gonna start carrying?
  • Vhaith said:
    Truax said:
    Keorin said:
    This really isn't hard to understand. Cyrene's number one enemy right now is the Tsol'teth. The Conclave has been a key party that's helped against the Tsol'teth in the past. An ally of the Tsol'teth is seeking membership on the Conclave. This, as you might imagine, is not a prospect we like very much.

    In short, this has been the first chance to take substantive action against the Tsol'teth's allies since the end of the Wave. Of course we're taking it seriously.

    I may be wrong, but Iit's not that people don't grasp the statement you're making here.

    Of course Cyrene hates the Tsol'teth and wanted a candidate that could help them maintain a strong stance against them. But that doesn't negate the fact that your city had finally gotten a few feet out from under the shadow of Targossas and this is viewed by many as a leap back into that (just months after a lot of silly bravado spilled across the Public boards. Just really bad timing there).

    I disagree that Cyrene has taken a substantive action through their choice though. All you really have is a speculative promise that your chosen contender will help you achieve your aims. It has potential, which is great for Cyrene, but selling it as anything more than that would be premature, and the working relationship with Targossas is tainting it quite a bit, so that's something you'll end up dealing with for a while down the road.

    I honestly don't care either way. Ashtan is having fun and that's all that matters to me!



    I don't think there is even a spectulative promise that Pryla'ari will help anyone. She's not closely allied to anyone at all, but she IS a Tsol'dasi, and as far as I'm aware, the only people that don't routinely hunt and kill her kin, are Eleusians. There might even be a hidden alliance somewhere in there. 
    We're just eatting our popcorn, don't bring us back into this :(
  • I said Cyrene can't -compete- alone, not that we wouldn't give it our all. We're making a ton of progress, but we all know that Cyrene doesn't have the muscle to actually have a serious shot at a win in a world event.

    And yes, it's fun to get to fight with people you don't normally get to. Is this a controversial statement?

    Someone needs to give Mhaldor reading classes, sheesh.
  • Legates have never been able to read, but apparently Cyrenians can't write, so perhaps we should come to a middle ground to help each other out.

    An Alliance, of sorts?
  • Minifie said:
    Legates have never been able to read
    You've found common ground with half of Cyrene, there.

  • Thaisen said:
    Sooo... it seems like the answer to the question after six pages is zero fun?
    Participation numbers are better for judging that than forum posts. All events in Achaea have a fair amount of frustration (that bleeds onto the forums) while ongoing, some degree of IC taking a back seat to OOC (sometimes necessarily so, because it is a game, and sometimes - in my opinion - not), and yet are still remembered more or less fondly afterwards. The extent of each of those three varies between events, but they seem to be constant companions to anything that involves the world as a whole.

    I'm glad that we've got to know Sevet a little better and that his interesting history has got some deserved highlighting, but sometimes wonder what would have been if Mhaldor voted for Venasia instead. On the topic of voting, it takes some suspension of disbelief to buy in to that this is how the Conclave would fill an empty seat. I might just be ignorant of their traditions and/or overestimating their significance out of ignorance, though.

    It's good to do something as a city/group that feels like it has some meaning (as compared to, for example, renown-capping for the sake of renown-capping). I've not had time to take much active part in the champion runs, but I'm fairly confident they are the type of thing the grizzled veterans will regale the wide-eyed novices of some in-game decades from now. I'm disappointed to have missed the riddles due to lack of foresight, though.

    The whole Targossas-Cyrene alliance is a distraction, and it seems we are arguing out of habit by now. I hope it led (or will lead) to some interesting IC interactions for the sides involved.
  • Ysela said:
    I'm glad that we've got to know Sevet a little better and that his interesting history has got some deserved highlighting, but sometimes wonder what would have been if Mhaldor voted for Venasia instead.
    I'm maybe not the intended audience, but I for one am pretty happy that it got to be Sevet. I knew very little about the history of Shala-Khulia before this, so it's pretty neat getting to learn about a unique part of the game lore I hadn't seen.

    Also, in the context of this event, he's just got a very unique aesthetic, one that I haven't really seen portrayed before, so that was pretty cool! I found it far more interesting than some of the ones that re-used a bunch of existing stuff to portray more familiar lore. Also, he's just an interesting character, IMO. I thought he gave probably the best talks.

  • Syrennia said:
    Aegoth said:
    Keorin said:
    Aegoth said:
    To me, the most damning thing Keo's said is [paraphrased] "We wouldn't be participating unless we had an alliance with someone else", which really is a concerning mindset to have, and speaks volumes to me about the OOC "win at any cost" mentality

    Uhh, where the heck are you getting that? I swear, do you all know how to make points that -aren't- blatant strawman arguments?

    I said that if Targossas had put a Targossian candidate forward, we would have sat out. This was presuming, I think pretty clearly, that we wouldn't have gotten a candidate into the top five. Obviously we'd have happily fought on our own if, say, Targossas had a Targossian candidate in the top five and Pryla'ari made it into the top five too. I think this event would've been a lot more fun if it was six candidates and a proper free for all, even.

    I should keep a count of how many posts I have to make that are just correcting Mhaldorian reading comprehension or obvious logical fallacies.
    https://forums.achaea.com/discussion/comment/435014#Comment_435014
    When is @Adrik the turbo basher gonna start carrying?
    I'm still salty about being called a turbo basher whenever I just barely got level 99.

    If you retire this character, you will receive 18215 transfer credits for use on a new character.

    Smh
  • Adrik said:
    Syrennia said:
    Aegoth said:
    Keorin said:
    Aegoth said:
    To me, the most damning thing Keo's said is [paraphrased] "We wouldn't be participating unless we had an alliance with someone else", which really is a concerning mindset to have, and speaks volumes to me about the OOC "win at any cost" mentality

    Uhh, where the heck are you getting that? I swear, do you all know how to make points that -aren't- blatant strawman arguments?

    I said that if Targossas had put a Targossian candidate forward, we would have sat out. This was presuming, I think pretty clearly, that we wouldn't have gotten a candidate into the top five. Obviously we'd have happily fought on our own if, say, Targossas had a Targossian candidate in the top five and Pryla'ari made it into the top five too. I think this event would've been a lot more fun if it was six candidates and a proper free for all, even.

    I should keep a count of how many posts I have to make that are just correcting Mhaldorian reading comprehension or obvious logical fallacies.
    https://forums.achaea.com/discussion/comment/435014#Comment_435014
    When is @Adrik the turbo basher gonna start carrying?
    I'm still salty about being called a turbo basher whenever I just barely got level 99.

    If you retire this character, you will receive 18215 transfer credits for use on a new character.

    Smh
    lmao look at this nerd
  • All this "alliance" talk is obnoxious.  It does t matter if there is or if there isn't.  Just roll with it.
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
  • Minifie said:
    Expecting Targ or Cyrene to do anything interesting or creative was your downfall.
    None of the cities did anything remotely interesting or creative. If we go by that measure, picking a candidate out of your own ranks and blindly fighting for him until the end is the laziest, most uninteresting way of going about it.

    But I'm not blaming cities for doing that, because besides being "lazy and uninteresting", it also makes perfect sense. Like many "lazy" choices.
  • Instead of just being a troll, I am going to give a pov on the event as a player. 

    The conclave is referenced in reading, there’s history of them doing important things, but since my character’s creation, the only successful thing they’ve done that is still been successful has been Hycanthus’ retaking of Cyrene. Impact of said Conclave has been minimal and they are just... there. When the call out was done for potential replacements to Maklak, I had legitimately confused Maklak as being the idiot who had subverted the Tsol’teth barrier. As someone who just digs into ongoing things for story, this felt very low impact. Again, nothing about this felt serious in the now, other than it being like a magi country club. 

    The biggest issue to me has been that it has felt incredibly low-stakes. Immersion is the ability to feel myself getting sucked into needing to participate to have a greater impact, but from day dot it’s had no real “oomf”. A referendum, election into what has been bashing things somewhat related to the candidates, but nothing from the candidates themselves. Perhaps Yudhi could have told us the importance of a fifth member? Perhaps more insight into how magically inclined? Do we even NEED a fifth? These are things that may be answered in reading old news posts, but that doesn’t help build tension or a sense of danger or urgency. The mobs are contained to their areas, no real disruption, nothing really more than things like legion rifts in WoW. They are there, kill they ass.

    This is where some guidance would have been immense. We didn’t know what was coming up, but if players had been in the 5, would they need to make it to specific events? Would it be feasible? Should we attempt it or stick to npcs, that can be safely guided when potential or direction are lacking. What if our player candidate went dormant half way through? Potentially, with 0 information to go off of, and no sense of political necessity or danger, most of the event just sort of... happened. Targ and Cyrene’s spat before the event had more sense of tension to it than the whole event, and unfortunately fizzled BECAUSE of the event. 

    This is only my opinion, but at no point did this seem like anything I, as a character, should care about. People say having X on the conclave would be great but... Again, the fuck has the conclave done that warrants such prestige or claim? Blowing up chunk of an occupied city, making a rather mediocre barrier... Such low stakes to try and motivate oneself to care about. For something called the Reckoning, it seems more like a popularity contest where instead of votes you gather maguffins. 

    Mechanically, it’s a simple grind, with interesting bosses the first time, and then back to grinding. A few minor additions that, again, felt like a damn job interview than anything with any discernable stakes. The grind has been tedious and unrewarding, the bosses respawning makes them feel even more like just daily quests reskinned, while also trying to do daily quests to cap renown. I’m just not sure what was placed on the drawing board vs how it became this. If the event was intended to just be a slap-dash last minute thing, why not just push a conflict via a few dead factional npcs? Important ones, with clues left that assassins from other factions were sent. You could tweak the same grinding to boss mechanics, but also add potential intrigue to solve, planted things to raise aggression directly between factions, then swap things around. 

    Other than the bosses and the small interactions here and there, the event has been a very resounding meh. After it ends, things will just be back to the same as before, nothing will come of all this work and a conclave of powerful magi end up looking like some boring old fatcats who just wanted to be entertained. 

    Fair enough some people have been immersed in the event, but as someone who prefers to have the story, threats and tension unfold in the act, this has been a very resounding “meh”. I’ve no reason before to give a shit about the conclave, and I still don’t have any reason. 

    At least ya’ll kept the 100% xp. That’s been a better event than the... you know, event. 
  • Minifie said:
    A lot
    I agree with essentially all of this, except for one bit - and that's the event feeling low stakes. The most significant thing the Conclave did was raise the barrier, which was effectively the act that ended the Second Black Wave. That alone means that they are one of the most significant groups in the ongoing fights against the Tsol'teth.

    So when you have one candidate who's an ally of the Tsol'teth and claims that she has allies who know who took down the barrier trying to join it, that's pretty significant if your goal is to fight against the 'teth.

    Conclave seats are pretty much permanent. Maybe things could change and they could rotate more, but as things stand this seems to be a more-or-less permanent chance to advance one faction's interests on a global level, which there are almost never opportunities for. So to me, this event felt worse for being too -high- stakes.

  • edited April 2020
    Keorin said:
    Minifie said:
    A lot
    I agree with essentially all of this, except for one bit - and that's the event feeling low stakes. The most significant thing the Conclave did was raise the barrier, which was effectively the act that ended the Second Black Wave. That alone means that they are one of the most significant groups in the ongoing fights against the Tsol'teth.

    So when you have one candidate who's an ally of the Tsol'teth and claims that she has allies who know who took down the barrier trying to join it, that's pretty significant if your goal is to fight against the 'teth.

    Conclave seats are pretty much permanent. Maybe things could change and they could rotate more, but as things stand this seems to be a more-or-less permanent chance to advance one faction's interests on a global level, which there are almost never opportunities for. So to me, this event felt worse for being too -high- stakes.


    From Telaan's application:
    Additional notes: The identity of the 'fool' who destroyed your extremely well-fashioned barrier is known to certain members of my organisation. We are willing to part with this information should it prove beneficial.

    If that information is useful, wouldn't you have supported Telaan because that's the one who offered up that intel? It would have given Cyrene someone to hit back at the very least. Pryla'ari is such a wild card. Priestess of Life usually means some connection to Cabal of Life too, which are all karmic wielders (foregoing the argument against backing an occultic practitioner).

    I mean I totally get why you couldn't/didn't back Telaan. But yeah, argument goes both ways really.



  • KogKog
    edited April 2020
    Silas said:
    Minifie said:
    Targ and Cyrene’s spat before the event had more sense of tension to it than the whole event, and unfortunately fizzled BECAUSE of the event. 

    Sorry to burst your bubble, but the tension had fizzled before the event. The level 2 tank on Cyrene was Targ's response, and failing anything further from Cyrene (very unlikely) that was it.
    EDIT: Actually I can't remember the specifics myself, apparently.
  • Kog said:
    Silas said:
    Minifie said:
    Targ and Cyrene’s spat before the event had more sense of tension to it than the whole event, and unfortunately fizzled BECAUSE of the event. 

    Sorry to burst your bubble, but the tension had fizzled before the event. The level 2 tank on Cyrene was Targ's response, and failing anything further from Cyrene (very unlikely) that was it.

    Did you miss us raiding you guys back like a day after?

    Yeah, pretty much. I've been raided by Mhashtan. An insignificant retaliatory raid by Cyrene after they gave us a level 2 tank doesn't even register, sorry.

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