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Iron Elite Membership Updates!

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  • [Deleted User][Deleted User]
    The other games have it at 20 per day, or 7000ish per year.

    I somehow doubt Achaea will be that high but even 1/4 of that will be a significant step up from current.
  • MaajidaMaajida
    Will the No-Brainer packages be sticking around? 
    Will a special currency be added to the membership? (Customization credits sound good >.> )
    I suppose... a new thread will be made for it when it's revealed. 

  • NicolaNicola
    @Maajida See Makarios' post on the previous page. There are no changes to no-brainers in the future that I can see.
  • UrnhlugUrnhlug
    My previous post was made before I saw Sarapis' new post.

    The daily credit system sounds exactly like what the game needs. This is exciting news.


  • MaajidaMaajida
    @Nicola Ah, thank you. Hope that's the case but if it changes I hope there's time to buy them. When No-Brainers came out they were originally temporary and I guess that feeling hasn't left me. This was when I played Aetolia so I haven't gotten Achaea's pack yet.
    I'm excited about the updates and a little scared. Excitared! 


  • NaminoNamino
    Math is fun.

    Before I get started, you'll notice throughout that I'm being as biased as possible in favor of the argument that Achaea is running on a slim margin.

    Sothantos' numbers on Targossian credits from credit sales say he sold 8638 credits. Let's lop off 10% of that immediately, and say 7800 came from direct credit buy, the other ten percent from globes, meaning Targossas bought 8000 globes in 2019 for this argument (way overestimating here), meaning 390,000 credits were purchased by Targossans. I'm assuming the 2% conversion is correct, someone can contradict this and I'll adjust. Let's assume Targossas is representative of all cities (Targ has had 139 ranked people login since 2020, versus 116 in Ashtan (lowest) and 265 and 211 for Cyrene and rogues respectively). Six cities plus rogues (390,000 * 7), is 2,730,000 credits total. Assuming, again biasing in favor of the small margin, that every single one of these credits was bought at 0.275USD, that is 750,750 in revenue from credits. Let's slap on an additional 35% (a low figure imo based on the survey) for promotions like arrows, prismatic tokens, IRE membership, and all the other lootboxes that have not contributed to city credit sales. That gives us a nice million to play with, being as biased against revenue generation as possible here.

    Next let's estimate expenses. Let's reward our hard working admins. Based on this post: https://www.reddit.com/r/MUD/comments/b2peew/ire_hiring_fulltime_producer_for_starmourn/ we're looking at 36k a pop, but that's for Starmourn, a lesser MUD. Our admins are way better and we're going to pay them 50k a pop. Afaik we have four, so that's 200k down the drain. Now we need to cover our overhead for keeping the lights on. Let's assume this is insanely expensive. 120k a year to keep the servers and the lights on, pay bonuses to our busy workers, and so forth (a server hosting through Steadfast, Achaea's host, for 48 core Xeon is significantly less than this, but again we're being biased).

    So, 1,000,000 - (200,000 + 120,000) = 680,000 USD.

    This is all back of the napkin math, but I've been as careful as I can be to be as favorable to the narrow margin argument as possible.

    I estimate 68% of Achaea's revenue is pure profit if 2% is correct. Recalculating for 3% instead, we're looking at 355,675 in profits on 675,675 in revenue, or around 52% profit, with the same math.

    I suspect the game is making plenty of money to easily survive a reassessing of credit values.
  • OzmatiahOzmatiah
    Just wanted to say thanks for the update and I love the idea of a membership store. Promo's and Elite would frustrate me because it often worked in just bound credits in a very gambling type of way. Talisman shop helped my frustration with that, and now I can just be patient waiting for things to come through, but with other perks out of membership credits, I'll happily re-up for the next year.


  • TaryiusTaryius
    edited February 2020
    Conversion is 3% for cities, 5% for houses. Promotional items like globes/spins/arrows give 1cr per item in question. (Buy 10 globes on the website, city gets +10 cr).

    I don't know where the 8000 globes for Targossas number is coming from in there. There is also the 30-40% and IRE elite credit sale bonuses to consider, I don't know how those work when it comes to organisational credits, but that could also affect the number.
  • NaminoNamino
    edited February 2020
    Again, it's back of the napkin. I recalculated for 3% at the bottom, but there's an enormous amount of revenue generating aspects of the game that do not contribute to city credits. If house leaders could actually get the tally of their house credits, that'd be an excellent way to really smooth the averaging out.

    The 8000 globes was an over-estimation in order to artificially downbias the amount of credits. Some amount of the credits Soth sold were accounted for by globes, so it would be unfair to say the whole amount came from credit buy. I chose a synthetically high number to bias the argument as much in favor of the 'we're running on the margins already' argument as possible.

    I can't say if city credits are calculated on the before discount credits (so the 30% would affect this) or after (so it wouldn't). Regretfully as a private LLC, IRE doesn't have to file with the SEC so there's no way to get actual answers regarding revenue besides speculate, which is ultimately what I'm doing. That being said, even if there's egregious systematic error here and all of that bias is against the favor of IRE's revenue generation, I can't see the margin being anything less than 30% given Soth's post.
  • AdrikAdrik
    As a note. Lanterns were a thing in 2019 and i think I personally lit 50 in Targ. Each worth 5cr for the city (none for house)
  • PauxPaux
    So now everyone who cancelled their membership in spite can re-up for a savings!

    It's not often you see it work out this well for rebel usurpers. 
  • SothantosSothantos
    Adrik said:
    As a note. Lanterns were a thing in 2019 and i think I personally lit 50 in Targ. Each worth 5cr for the city (none for house)
    I think it was a 1/3 chance to do so. I remember there being an experience bonus at least as one of the other options.
  • UrnhlugUrnhlug
    As much as I think the discounting of bundled months is a good start, as is daily credit earning, I still think the *base* cost of both credits in general, the promotions, and the membership is absurdly high. It always feels good to get a step in the right direction, but this feels like a bandaid on the huge wound that is "your game is crazy expensive".

    I agree with Namino's rough numbers, in that I think the concept that Achaea is running on some kind of hyper-thin margins doesn't read as plausible to me.

    I still believe that there should be more options towards earning low tier artefacts or more lessons for newer players.


  • MinifieMinifie
    Urnhlug said:
    As much as I think the discounting of bundled months is a good start, as is daily credit earning, I still think the *base* cost of both credits in general, the promotions, and the membership is absurdly high. It always feels good to get a step in the right direction, but this feels like a bandaid on the huge wound that is "your game is crazy expensive".

    I agree with Namino's rough numbers, in that I think the concept that Achaea is running on some kind of hyper-thin margins doesn't read as plausible to me.

    I still believe that there should be more options towards earning low tier artefacts or more lessons for newer players.
    IMO the price can be high IF there is a timely way to earn things IG. Doesn't have to be level 3s in a year, but being able to get the baseline through IG methods in a timely manner makes me feel that monetization methods aren't as predatory. Sarapis isn't wrong that they wouldn't survive if every player just sat on Irelite, and if CFS was even around 10k it'd still not be the worst to kit yourself totally IG. Making Iron elite, though, the most non-brainer thing possible will help immensely I think, because a sub to a F2P game helps with retention, and Achaea is still healthy enough. 

    Positive changes in this direction will do nothing but help the game stick fat and grow, and that's something I can get behind. I would like there to be a lot less gambling promos, though, because as an impulsive spender with OCD I know how easy it is to cave to such things. 
  • YselaYsela
    Sothantos said:
    We can probably get a minimum estimate on revenue with enough digging around.

    Ysela, Rackham, Myna, Krizal, Keorin: Do you have the city credit revenues for your cities?

    Targossas made 8638 credits from credit sales between 788 AF and 817AF, which roughly corresponds to the year of 2019. At 2%, that's 431,900 credits purchased (Does anyone have the percentage offhand?). This is somewhat off due to credit bonuses from promos, but that's a quick estimate -- if anyone has historical promo prices we can get a better sense of it.

    EDIT: Recalculated numbers.


    I don't have that easily accessible, unfortunately. Would have to do some digging through logs, and am stuck finalizing a couple of actual annual reports for the next few days.

    Spontaneously though, the ~221 credits/IG year for Targossas sounds reasonably close to what I'd estimate Mhaldor's numbers to be. Varies a lot depending on the monthly promotion, and Mhaldor got some extra windfall from winning something a while back so I'd need to double check to give an accurate number.
  • MicaelisMicaelis
    Namino said:
    Again, it's back of the napkin. I recalculated for 3% at the bottom, but there's an enormous amount of revenue generating aspects of the game that do not contribute to city credits. If house leaders could actually get the tally of their house credits, that'd be an excellent way to really smooth the averaging out.

    The 8000 globes was an over-estimation in order to artificially downbias the amount of credits. Some amount of the credits Soth sold were accounted for by globes, so it would be unfair to say the whole amount came from credit buy. I chose a synthetically high number to bias the argument as much in favor of the 'we're running on the margins already' argument as possible.

    I can't say if city credits are calculated on the before discount credits (so the 30% would affect this) or after (so it wouldn't). Regretfully as a private LLC, IRE doesn't have to file with the SEC so there's no way to get actual answers regarding revenue besides speculate, which is ultimately what I'm doing. That being said, even if there's egregious systematic error here and all of that bias is against the favor of IRE's revenue generation, I can't see the margin being anything less than 30% given Soth's post.
    I think it could be possible that the net profits from Achaea are swirled around to compensate for the other games performances, or lack thereof, in sort of a slush fund. I can see it being a reality that the profits of Achaea are entirely responsible for keeping some other IRE games afloat, and the higher ups rely on this in the hopes of those games eventually "taking off". 

    That said, at the end of the day this is a business. Specifically it's a unique business with a uniquely devoted player base. Profit is the name of the game and to arbitrarily cut profit just to appease a general desire in every consumer for cheaper products isn't something an intelligent company would ever do. It just doesn't make any sense. The reason games had loot boxes is because people bought loot boxes. When a game gets rid of a loot box it's because bad press/player resentment grows to a point where a lack of sales overshadow the benefit of loot box income. It's not because they're just cool dudes who are hip with the times and want to hang out down at the roller rink. 

    I'd be interested in seeing the revenue during credit promotions (e.g. 40%/50% credit bonus when purchasing credits from the site) to better reflect if lowering the prices would be a good move financially. The question isn't "Are things expensive?" it's "Are things so expensive that people opt out entirely?" If so, prices should be lowered to increase profit. If not, why preemptively lower prices while you're still buying them?
  • IaxusIaxus
    @Admin, thank you. 

    Jumpy said:
    The membership is already such a good deal that there is no way we can reduce the cost. 

  • UrnhlugUrnhlug
    "That said, at the end of the day this is a business. Specifically it's a unique business with a uniquely devoted player base. Profit is the name of the game and to arbitrarily cut profit just to appease a general desire in every consumer for cheaper products isn't something an intelligent company would ever do. It just doesn't make any sense. The reason games had loot boxes is because people bought loot boxes. When a game gets rid of a loot box it's because bad press/player resentment grows to a point where a lack of sales overshadow the benefit of loot box income. It's not because they're just cool dudes who are hip with the times and want to hang out down at the roller rink. "

    @Micaelis I think the concept that things being arbitrarily expensive is "working" so they shouldn't lower prices is naive. Credits have ALWAYS been expensive. There's no way of knowing what kind of player retention/new buyers they'd have if credits were across the board a cheaper thing. I think the idea that "well, some people buy them, so why would we make them cheaper?" is absurdly short sighted.

    I also agree that I'd hazard to guess that Achaea's profits are used to do things like fund Starmourn or keep other games afloat. Which is unfortunate, because it means EVERYONE is paying more and getting less. If Achaea has the most paying players, that game should be getting the benefits.


  • AnielAniel
    Also, in response to the L1 arti comment, Aetolia has it so you can buy amulets for 15k that function similarly. They last 12 RL days, and you can wear three at a time.


    White: Adds 1+ to all stats
    Green: Increases critical chance by 2%
    Blue: Increases health and mana by 5%
    Red: Increases damage done against NPCs
    Yellow: Increases amount of restored health (analeptic) and mana (stimulant) by 10%
    Purple: Increases equilibrium recovery by 7%.

    I know that it's out of the question and would be kinda bluh to copy/paste from another IRE game, but it's just something to give everyone an idea of what it  could look like.
  • SarapisSarapis
    Urnhlug said:
     If Achaea has the most paying players, that game should be getting the benefits.
    Believe me, it does. It has the largest staff budget and Achaea is at the forefront of literally every IRE-wide decision we make. I mean no offense to the other games, all of whom I love, but Achaea is the most important IRE game and always has been simply by virtue of size of playerbase. That's just reality. Maybe that will change someday, but that day is not today. 
  • NaminoNamino
    Regarding profits, @Micaelis ,I have two thoughts:

    Firstly, I don't think IRE will necessarily lose profits by being more reasonable in their credit pricing. I only got less than 60 respondents to the survey and I was hoping for at least 100, hopefully closer to 200, but maybe we can consider this as preliminary data, perhaps.

    Right now the most populous group of individuals are people paying nothing at all:




    This shifts dramatically if we suggest people get their 'ideal' pricing for credits, which is somewhere between 50% and 20% their current price:



    It looks like every single nothing player immediately jumps to the 101-200 tier, save a few holdouts.

    The most concerning response on the survey to me is this one, however:



    Which is more or less a strong feeling amongst the playerbase that this pricing scheme is hurting our ability to recruit new players. This is a problem, as not only would more players = more people spending money, but a fresh player actually represents the most valuable commodity, as they have the most spending potential. As the playerbase gets more veteran, older characters reach artefact asymptotes where they have what they want. The constant influx of promotions is an attempt to coax them into spending more when we could instead be attracting fresh faces who need to buy it all.

    These data, again, are what I would consider strongly preliminary.

    My second thought is this: you're right. If this is just a 'we want to make as much money as possible thing' then that's within their rights. But that should be what is said, rather than 'we're barely treading water!', which is disingenuous. If the pricing is what it is because we're all rubes, and they're calling our bluff and saying the pricing stays because we'll lose our nerves and fork over money for it anyway, then I'd actually respect that argument a lot more. At least then we'd know the terrain better, that this pricing scheme is a founder decision rather than an act of necessity to keep the lights on. And we can withhold our payments appropriately in the face of that.
  • TelinusTelinus
    @Sarapis I would love for you to give your view on why these games do not allow you to tri-trans your first chosen class at level 80 or at the very least, 100?

    The cost is ridiculous for new players, and heaven forbid they eventually tri trans, realise the class isn't as good as they thought, as fun as they thought, or they want to change faction and suddenly they're down 450cr they now have to buy AGAIN to play their class at a base line.

    Make the first class free.

    Make the first class tri trans at level 80.

    Make the first class free for new players and keep it free as long as they have an IRE elite membership.

    Lock it behind being able to change once per RL month (once per IRE renewal month).

    Remove the cost associated with changing your first class slot as long as its only done once every RL month/6 months/year or whatever.

    Just stop punishing new players in a game that has become so much more expensive to become involved in. Exclude existing players if you're worried about a class hopper like me from "abusing" this.

    Shit, just do something about this for them because there is no way in hell I will ever promote this game to a new player whilst the first class is so restricted and makes them have to pay to play the game for that.

    Punish them after quitting their first class if you think its really that much of a hit to IRE, but make the first class they ever gain 100% free.






  • OzmatiahOzmatiah
    I don't like the idea of a free class, even if you could magically limit it so that people didnt just make a free tritrans alt in each city.

    Instead I feel that while this thread is credits and cost the novice problem is easily multidimensional. Why would and 18 year old be tritrans and how do you even RP that. Instead things like attainment help address this and made things feel incrementally feasible, maybe a lessons boost per day on a primary character for elite or something to that effect.

    But I started playing and continued because of the easy growth to be useful and the interactions wih my first House leader and HoN. I think those initial interactions are more critical than any credit cost. Looking at Naminos numbers a lot of people didnt pay anything yet keep playing. 
  • TorinnTorinn
    I don't think people were suggesting it be tritrans from the get go.  Tritrans at 80 would be perfect.
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
  • JovoloJovolo
    Level 80 is also something that's realistically attainable and not as intimidating as level 99. It's a viable goal to work towards which must be good for retention.
  • IsaeriIsaeri
    the only thing i'm seeing from this change is the fact that it actually sucks to have to break your current running consecutive month bonus to switch to the cheaper-per-month options.
  • ThaisenThaisen
    As it should... but it doesn’t.

    if you renew within 30 days the benefits don’t reset.
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