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Don't own a veil. There's no defence of theft in that post - I'm objecting to the more general argument that Achaea should only permit "opt-in" forms of gameplay. If you want to engage with the post I wrote, rather than the post you imagine I wrote - happy to have that conversation.
ETA: Ugh I hate it when your reply scrolls off a page. This is @Morsul in case not obvious.
A very small group of players support it
Yes, they are mutually exclusive. I think you're missing my broader point though which is that there are many examples of things that happen in Achaea that are not "opt-in", and that (to my mind) they are generally a list of all the things that make Achaea exceptional and interesting. There was a long list in my post. If you rely on the "opt in" argument then you are, by definition, against all of those things too.
And that seems to me to be fairly patently a bad position.
OK, so that's engaging with my actual points which is good.
Now let's talk about what we mean when we say "opt in". In a very basic sense, of course, all activity is "opt in" because you could choose to (a) not log in, or (b) log in and then never touch your keyboard other than to qq after an hour. But that's nonsensical right? It applies then to theft as much as it would to... bashing, say. We have to define the term better or it's useless.
So I'd define "opt in" forms of gameplay as those where the universe of costs and benefits that can happen to you are clear, well understood and accepted before you engage in the activity. Does that definition seem fair to you? If not, please suggest an alternative, useful one.
If you accept that definition then I'd say that almost all of the best parts of Achaea are not "opt in". Because if you are going to engage in the world in a living way, if you're going to roleplay, join an organization, participate in an organization, open yourself up to interactions with others, have a fully formed Achaean character, then all of those activities require opting in. With all of the uncertainties in consequence that that implies.
Yes, you can avoid almost all of that by sitting at Centre Crossing and chatting in a way not that dissimilar to how you would chat to your friends IRL but to my mind then you aren't playing the game. The important parts of Achaea (for me) are not all of the interesting mini-systems but the story of it, and the service of that story. If you're not in the story, then you're not really in the game. And you can't participate in the story without opting in, without accepting that you don't know how it ends, that it might go differently from how you expect, that other people might react in a way that you didn't foresee or you don't like.
You'll notice again, I hope, that none of this is about theft. It's still an objection to the attitude behind the argument that only "opt in" forms of gameplay are good.
Specifics? Do you mean the implosion of Targossas leadership? I mean, even the biggest "not opt-in loss" of Shallam's destruction didn't really wipe a lot. Good, as a faction, arguably got better after its recombination into Targossas.
I mean you are kind of leading with a good specific example right there? If your position is that the destruction of Shallam was not a meaningful consequence for the Shallamese then it's going to be hard for us to have a productive discussion because I don't really know how to engage with that position in a constructive manner.
To be clear: I think you can make good arguments about not including theft (and @Asmodron made many of them), I just don't think the "opt in" argument is one. And the underlying attitude about it is interesting enough to spend some time analyzing (and hopefully discarding).
I'm sorry you lost promo items, I didn't know that. That sucks, and I think you should have had a way to get them back.
A very small group of players support it
Forums representation not being 100% of the playerbase notwithstanding, a full, even 1/3 of the playerbase who voted yes (not counting the "No" no voters who like the idea of theft but not its current iteration) is hardly a "very small group".Also re: the last post, I don't own a veil.
@Cooper - looking forward to you weighing in to remind people that the purpose of the thread wasn't to demonstrate the general support level for theft, and that it would be misleading to use the "third" figure now that you've helpfully clarified the intention of the thread.
@Cobault - any argument on "what the playerbase wants" is doomed to fail from lack of info. The actual poll question was unclear, you have no way of knowing if the people who voted were representative of the playerbase, and whether people could be persuaded depending on tweaks to the mechanics.
You have to argue it on its merits or not.
90% of players don't ignore big events, and I'd say further that everything is "opted in" when you log into the game.
I'd ask for it to be a trade skill so I can do it without class switching.
If Mathonwy is 2006 I wish 2007 had never come.
Message #12872 Sent by Jurixe
shady parts of town that are open-theft