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Casing and Fencing

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  • IllarionIllarion Member Posts: 88 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited August 12

    Don't own a veil.  There's no defence of theft in that post - I'm objecting to the more general argument that Achaea should only permit "opt-in" forms of gameplay.  If you want to engage with the post I wrote, rather than the post you imagine I wrote - happy to have that conversation.

    ETA: Ugh I hate it when your reply scrolls off a page.  This is @Morsul in case not obvious.

    Mathonwy
  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,795 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cobault said:
    A very small group of players support it
    Forums representation not being 100% of the playerbase notwithstanding, a full, even 1/3 of the playerbase who voted yes (not counting the "No" no voters who like the idea of theft but not its current iteration) is hardly a "very small group".

    Also re: the last post, I don't own a veil. 

    Caelan
  • MorsulMorsul Member Posts: 112 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Theft and "opt-in" gameplay are mutually exclusive. If you're against one, then you are for the other. It's literally the most invasive mechanic of Achaea: you can lose real life days (if not weeks) of progress from one incident of theft. It needs to be shut down, to the root, and we need to ensure that it and its ilk never see the light of day again.
    Athelas
  • IllarionIllarion Member Posts: 88 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    Yes, they are mutually exclusive.  I think you're missing my broader point though which is that there are many examples of things that happen in Achaea that are not "opt-in", and that (to my mind) they are generally a list of all the things that make Achaea exceptional and interesting.  There was a long list in my post.  If you rely on the "opt in" argument then you are, by definition, against all of those things too.

    And that seems to me to be fairly patently a bad position.

  • LennLenn Member Posts: 558 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    All of the things you listed were also opt-in. 
  • MorsulMorsul Member Posts: 112 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited August 12
    Okay let's do this, baby

    participating in elections/political scheming: opt-in
    purchasing stuff: opt-in
    upsetting an NPC/PKer: you...chose to insult an NPC or a PKer. and even if you didn't, there is a feasible avenue for reparations. opt-in.
    adopting a heretical positon: you chose to adopt said position. opt-in
    placing guards wrong: you can chose not to place them wrong? anyway, I think every city has blank spots; that's just how it was designed. either way. opt-in.

    I don't know what you mean by "gods die". I'm presuming you mean that you can't control if your god dies and you lose your order, and if that's the case, you win that point. The story > your feelings.

    Looking over this list that you seem proud of....did you even try? :lol:

    I'm going to add in this bit:

    You can turn political schemes around. It's a game of patience and strategy. There is counterplay. Same goes for RP stuff with NPCs, as well as whatever revolutionary stance you choose to take. Same with guards. You can get the upper hand with any of these examples.

    Theft? Good luck. Say a fond farewell to hundreds of your dollars being swiped because of an unlucky internet hiccough.

  • TorinnTorinn Member Posts: 1,269 @ - Epic Achaean
    What about the recent events?  Those weren't "opt in"
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
    TaryiusNumira
  • IllarionIllarion Member Posts: 88 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    OK, so that's engaging with my actual points which is good.

    Now let's talk about what we mean when we say "opt in".  In a very basic sense, of course, all activity is "opt in" because you could choose to (a) not log in, or (b) log in and then never touch your keyboard other than to qq after an hour.  But that's nonsensical right?  It applies then to theft as much as it would to... bashing, say. We have to define the term better or it's useless. 

    So I'd define "opt in" forms of gameplay as those where the universe of costs and benefits that can happen to you are clear, well understood and accepted before you engage in the activity.  Does that definition seem fair to you?  If not, please suggest an alternative, useful one.

    If you accept that definition then I'd say that almost all of the best parts of Achaea are not "opt in".  Because if you are going to engage in the world in a living way, if you're going to roleplay, join an organization, participate in an organization, open yourself up to interactions with others, have a fully formed Achaean character, then all of those activities require opting in.  With all of the uncertainties in consequence that that implies. 

    Yes, you can avoid almost all of that by sitting at Centre Crossing and chatting in a way not that dissimilar to how you would chat to your friends IRL but to my mind then you aren't playing the game.  The important parts of Achaea (for me) are not all of the interesting mini-systems but the story of it, and the service of that story.  If you're not in the story, then you're not really in the game.  And you can't participate in the story without opting in, without accepting that you don't know how it ends, that it might go differently from how you expect, that other people might react in a way that you didn't foresee or you don't like.

    You'll notice again, I hope, that none of this is about theft.  It's still an objection to the attitude behind the argument that only "opt in" forms of gameplay are good. 


    Mathonwy
  • MorsulMorsul Member Posts: 112 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Specifics? Do you mean the implosion of Targossas leadership? I mean, even the biggest "not opt-in loss" of Shallam's destruction didn't really wipe a lot. Good, as a faction, arguably got better after its recombination into Targossas. Theft, though: you have lost the item forever, or you must pay a ridiculous amount. Either way, you have lost value (sometimes, a significant amount). The thief gets away with no feasible recourse.

    This is, what, the fourth iteration of theft that has been tried? Everything has failed: thieves still suffer no consequences. Victims still either lose, or lose hard. There is no hope for a fix to theft. It must be deleted completely.
  • IllarionIllarion Member Posts: 88 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Morsul said:
    Specifics? Do you mean the implosion of Targossas leadership? I mean, even the biggest "not opt-in loss" of Shallam's destruction didn't really wipe a lot. Good, as a faction, arguably got better after its recombination into Targossas.

    I mean you are kind of leading with a good specific example right there?  If your position is that the destruction of Shallam was not a meaningful consequence for the Shallamese then it's going to be hard for us to have a productive discussion because I don't really know how to engage with that position in a constructive manner.

    To be clear: I think you can make good arguments about not including theft (and @Asmodron made many of them), I just don't think the "opt in" argument is one.  And the underlying attitude about it is interesting enough to spend some time analyzing (and hopefully discarding).

    I'm sorry you lost promo items, I didn't know that.  That sucks, and I think you should have had a way to get them back.

  • MorsulMorsul Member Posts: 112 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I've long since given up on my own promo items. But I do not want anything like it to happen to anyone ever again. Theft should be removed in its entirety.
  • CobaultCobault Member Posts: 106 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Trey said:
    Cobault said:
    A very small group of players support it
    Forums representation not being 100% of the playerbase notwithstanding, a full, even 1/3 of the playerbase who voted yes (not counting the "No" no voters who like the idea of theft but not its current iteration) is hardly a "very small group".

    Also re: the last post, I don't own a veil. 
    Apart from the people that climbed out of the woodwork to get a full refund on their old shiney... wasn't it about the same, 1/3ish of players that didn't think Veils should be changed? People will get over it or quit. It's better for the longevity though.
  • IllarionIllarion Member Posts: 88 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    @Cooper - looking forward to you weighing in to remind people that the purpose of the thread wasn't to demonstrate the general support level for theft, and that it would be misleading to use the "third" figure now that you've helpfully clarified the intention of the thread.

    @Cobault - any argument on "what the playerbase wants" is doomed to fail from lack of info.  The actual poll question was unclear, you have no way of knowing if the people who voted were representative of the playerbase, and whether people could be persuaded depending on tweaks to the mechanics.

    You have to argue it on its merits or not.

  • LennLenn Member Posts: 558 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    My point with the opt-in argument was to disprove the claim that theft as-is suits Achaea.

    The fact it's so difficult to offer another thing in Achaea where the opt-out is "sit on a guard stack or qq" is the point. It's the only one I know of.

    Tide only affected Sapience. I somehow avoided bashing a single tide monster without significantly altering my play, personally.

    The deaths of Gods and siege of a city don't affect you much unless you choose to interact with them.
  • IllarionIllarion Member Posts: 88 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    @Lenn - ok, that's fine. I think we just value different things then.  If you want to play a game where you can ignore the Black Wave, and the death of gods, and the destruction of cities don't affect you then more power to you.  But that's not a version of Achaea I want to play, nor is it one that I think the admin should encourage.
  • LennLenn Member Posts: 558 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    You're not playing it, by your own admission, but it's what the admins have made.
  • IllarionIllarion Member Posts: 88 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited August 12
    You think the admin want to make a world where the Black Wave, the death of Gods and the destruction of cities can be irrelevant to the players? Interesting.
  • LennLenn Member Posts: 558 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I don't know or care what they want.

    I'm saying they have.
  • TorinnTorinn Member Posts: 1,269 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited August 12
    Lenn plays in his own little microverse of Achaea I'm pretty sure.  90% of players don't ignore big events, and I'd say further that everything is "opted in" when you log into the game.  That is the nature of a multiplayer, open world, pvp and event-driven game.  There is no opting out, for anything.  If you think you "opt out" of things, it's really just ignoring it or sticking your head in the sand.  Either way, the very nature of being in game opts you in by default to the gamut of gameplay options because they could happen at any time.  To opt out, you need to log out.  Even then, it's the content you opted into when you logged in that caused you to log out.  
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
    IllarionIsrayhl
  • LennLenn Member Posts: 558 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I'm currently opting out right now by playing a game I like more, yes.
  • TorinnTorinn Member Posts: 1,269 @ - Epic Achaean
    My only point is, saying someone should be able to "opt out" or "opt in" to anything is just not a good argument.  There have been lots of good suggestions for meaningful improvement.
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
  • AegothAegoth Member Posts: 2,780 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Torinn said:
      90% of players don't ignore big events, and I'd say further that everything is "opted in" when you log into the game. 
    See: 90% of Cyrene willfully ignoring the event
    TorinnIsrayhl
  • LennLenn Member Posts: 558 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I disagree. I think if you start to view how theft could be opt-in, rather than outright oppose the concept entirely, there could be interesting ideas.

    For example, maybe shop maintenance could either be on "low" or "high." One costs more, the other opens up theft as a risk.

    Perhaps people who get too much gold via bashing are easier to rob in lieu of the current soft cap, though that'd be tricky as the best bashers also tend to be good at moving very quickly.
  • CaelanCaelan Member Posts: 1,928 @ - Epic Achaean
    I'm on a bit of break while handling health issues, but is there anything Morsul and Lenn don't bitch about?  It seems every discussion turns into how something they personally disagree with should be changed to suit them (and then followed by statements insinuating they don't even play much). And FFS can we stop complaining about some people having artifacts? Even before I had my first one I didnt bitch.  Jesus. Maybe put more time in at work and less on these forums and you can get one or two. If you choose not to, stop faulting everyone else for choosing to do so.

    @Torinn ; well put reply on opting in being the minute you log in. 

    @Illarion made the case I tried to before with much better eloquence. That attitude of opt-in is BS and runs counter to what made Achaea popular for 2+ decades. 

    TorinnTaryius
  • LennLenn Member Posts: 558 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    If you don't like reading my posts, the forum has an ignore feature.

    I never said theft should personally suit me. I said it's at odds with how the rest of the game works.

    If I wanted theft to personally suit me, which I have in another thread, I'd ask for it to be a trade skill so I can do it without class switching.
  • CobaultCobault Member Posts: 106 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited August 12
    Lenn said:
    I'd ask for it to be a trade skill so I can do it without class switching.
    Stop this nonsense. Now.
    Caelan
  • MathonwyMathonwy Member Posts: 914 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 12
    I shouldn't have to forum ignore. I never opted in in the first place.

    ETA: phrased more constructively, if there were a compelling reason to upset the status quo, I don't think that's it. Arguably the most important parts of the game, from PK to character development, aren't opt-in in any capacity.

    Example: Someone earlier shrugged off Shallam getting destroyed with a hearty "and nothing of value was lost" type comment. Tell that to the people who had been playing there for a decade, a few of whom shed actual tears. I would argue what came after is better overall, but that's because it created more catalysts for roleplay or development, not fewer.
    Saeva said:
    If Mathonwy is 2006 I wish 2007 had never come.
    Xenomorph said:
    heh. Mathowned.
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  • LennLenn Member Posts: 558 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited August 12
    The forum is not the game, but I'll bite. You opted in when you opened this thread and started reading.

    PK is absolutely opt-in, it's against the rules to PK someone for no reason outside of special areas and special events.

    Character development is very opt-in.

    A lot of people don't care about Shallam's destruction, and you can't force them to. Sorry if you thought otherwise?

    Edit: Would you like it more if I said these "opt-in" things were "consequences to player actions" whereas theft is a "consequence to being logged in at all above a certain level"?

    You don't do anything to get robbed. There's no shady parts of town that are open-theft, no thieves guilds you can piss off to become a target. Everyone in the game (above a certain level) is always free game, and any mitigation you might do can be defeated by simply losing your connection at the right time.
  • MorsulMorsul Member Posts: 112 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I mean I'm not at all surprised that artifacted people are in favour of keeping theft. :lol: :lol: Resetting/nondecay, what's good.

    Also not surprising: dissing people for not playing much, and not actually addressing the actual reasons why people have not been playing. :lol: :lol:

    Keep classy.  B)
    Lenn
  • RyxRyx North of NorthreachMember Posts: 103 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Lenn said:
    shady parts of town that are open-theft
    I like this idea. Guards are sort of that, but they're expensive and rare in terms of city coverage. Lesser guards that only protect from theft and not combat, or some other equivalent, with more coverage than current guards would be nice.
    LennCailin
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