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Casing and Fencing

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  • MorsulMorsul Member Posts: 112 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Sophi said:
    I guess I just dont understand why being cased is the worst thing in the world in everyone's eyes. People hide from bounties/contracts for literal days but a couple hours for casing and it's now it's a problem. 

    I'm not saying it's a perfect system either but nothing will ever be good enough for this playerbase. 
    Iol @ comparing the risk of losing experience equivalent to 30 mins of bashing 

    to the risk of losing something that may be worth hundreds of thousands of gold (and thus take literal RL days to bash up, thanks goldcap).

    next please.
  • SophiSophi Rally PointMember Posts: 100 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Morsul said:
    Sophi said:
    I guess I just dont understand why being cased is the worst thing in the world in everyone's eyes. People hide from bounties/contracts for literal days but a couple hours for casing and it's now it's a problem. 

    I'm not saying it's a perfect system either but nothing will ever be good enough for this playerbase. 
    Iol @ comparing the risk of losing experience equivalent to 30 mins of bashing 

    to the risk of losing something that may be worth hundreds of thousands of gold (and thus take literal RL days to bash up, thanks goldcap).

    next please.

    Thank you for helping to reiterate my point that if people will afk on a ship/log out for several days to avoid losing 30 min of exp, it should not be a problem to do the same for a day to remove an instance of casing. 

    As it is, casings already telegraph a pickpocket attempt (it has already been mentioned that it takes several casings to get back to previous success % of targetted pickpocket) and give ample time to bolster your defenses and/or secure your items. 

    Not only that, there are several additional layers of protection for gold that already exist. If you're referring to items that shouldn't be able to be pickpocketed such as legend deck cards, that is a whole different problem and has nothing to do with casing mechanics. 

    The only change for casing I think should be added is a notification for the target when casings expire, if it doesn't already exist. 
  • RyxRyx North of NorthreachMember Posts: 103 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited August 6
    So from my newbie perspective, I kind of see different kinds of theft.

    - "Class fantasy" theft
    - $$$ Theft
    - "I want that specific item" theft
    - Role play theft

    The main problems being the inability to opt-in.

    I see some potential solutions, at least for Serpent-based theft:

    Class fantasy: I'm defining this as the thief wants the experience of casing someone, stalking them, getting past their defences and succeeding. I think the gameplay sounds pretty good for this except for the victim. Chits are interesting. For something like this, to make it less painful to the victim one option could be to have the thief steal some generic, sellable item that isn't actually taken from the player's inventory. Value of generic sellable item could increase with number of cases. So they might get "worthless junk" or "sparkly junk".

    Making money: Main problem here is that victims don't like losing all their gold, amounts of which can vary. Yeah, you can bank it, but the loss is still potentially high and painful. Potential solution is gold loss cap or make it a percent rather than all of it. Then it just hurts like death. Could be combined with "generic item", so when they get "generic item" victim loses relatively small percent of gold.

    Specific item: Can be fun for the thief but really sucks for the victim. I think it should be like combat where something causes them to opt-in, like infamy. Combat has to have a basis, because griefing sucks. This is pretty similar.

    Role play theft: I think this is the best kind of theft, though I imagine it's a bit rare, and there should be a way to get around the fencing system for this. Like combat I think the RP should be established in some way. Perhaps when indemnified?

    I realize these break some realism, but hey, falcons fly through doors.
  • MorsulMorsul Member Posts: 112 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    It's funny because, in a way, theft is the ultimate pay-to-win mechanic. Pay enough to afford the best internet service to never get disconnected. Bonus: do this twice, on different networks, so you always have a backup.

    What stage of capitalism is this again
  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,356 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I mean, if you are getting disconnected frequently enough to see none of the multiple cases on you really should be contacting the ombudsmen about your internet provider.
  • CailinCailin Member Posts: 347 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Except case + pickpocket is not the only way to steal. There's still hypnotize. (Not to mention shops, but that's not usually a dc issue.)
    Cooper
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,261 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'm going to address stealing without case with admin privately. I'm 99% sure they forgot about a method of theft that makes case almost irrelevant for the people that would have had case stacks built up on them.

    Shirszae can confirm.

    Shirszae
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,254 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    -Confirms- :lol: :bleep_bloop:

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

    Cooper
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,274 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cooper said:
    I'm going to address stealing without case with admin privately. I'm 99% sure they forgot about a method of theft that makes case almost irrelevant for the people that would have had case stacks built up on them.

    Shirszae can confirm.
    Does it involve falcons?


    Sobriquet
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,261 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You wish it did. 

  • AthelasAthelas Cape Town South AfricaMember Posts: 325 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    As @Asmodron mentioned, theft and casing/fencing as it exists now, has no opt-in mechanism.

    What makes the mechanism completely unfair (regardless of the RL time required to do casing/fencing) is:
    1.) It opens the door for one player to endlessly grief another.
    2.) There is no mechanism, through which the victim could even hope to do as much damage to the offender, as can be done to the victim.

    The mechanism is essentially a win-win for the thief while being a lose-lose for the victim.

    e.g:
    - Thief steals an item worth a week worth of RL time bashing for gold.
    - Victim has no readily available cash to counter the thief's bid during the fencing phase.
    - Thief walks away with highly valuable item while the worst that could happen to him/her, is to suffer one and exactly one death. Amounting to the player losing perhaps as much as 30 minutes of intense bashing, to regain lost XP.

    Until there exists a mechanism through which the victim can damage the thief equally, the mechanic as it exists now, can not be fixed.

    The only way to prevent this kind of griefing, in any game, is to make the theft of anything that's not an easily renewable resource, impossible.

    In the case of Achaea that means:

    1.) Keep the current mechanic of selfishness vs stripping-selfishness-defence
    2.) Make theft of anything but gold and a few other basic items, impossible.

    Other than that, the best anti-theft mechanism in game, is to simply have nothing worth stealing. There are few things as much fun as hearing a thief complain about the empty pack they just got from you. :)
  • ArchaeonArchaeon Ur mums house lolMember Posts: 387 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    you guys are a bunch of whiners
  • CaelanCaelan Member Posts: 1,925 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited August 7
    Archaeon said:
    you guys are a bunch of whiners
    Uhh.. I'm preeeetty sure that it is spelled w-i-n-n-e-r-s. 

    Oh wait this is Achaea and we have to use Old English.  So I think you just put the H in the wrong spot. Should be hhhhwinners.  I learned proper Old English from Stewie

  • MorsulMorsul Member Posts: 112 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    no clue why the admins keep catering to the 10 or so thieves as opposed to the rest of the game's pop

    oh, wait
  • MinifieMinifie Member Posts: 2,346 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 7
    Morsul said:
    no clue why the admins keep catering to the 10 or so thieves as opposed to the rest of the game's pop

    oh, wait
    What are you even talking about? This made theft, for these thieves, arguably worse, and wanting theft to be "opt in" would do. . . What, exactly? What rewards would be offered to people to opt in, and at what point would it just be nothing more than a passive bonus to some, a semi-passive bonus to some, and give peace of mind to a few who are just terrified of there being other people and danger in the world? You can be 99.9% safe from theft easily, and 100% with a few additional bonuses and upkeeping. PK, politics, hunting, silenceon and such makes interaction opt in. There should still be some absolutely minor things you can't opt in from, and have to be aware for. If you don't like it, you can protect yourself completely by carrying nothing of value and putting ALL your gold in a bank. 

    Edit: To clarify too: I want to make it clear that I do NOT condone adding things that divide the haves and haves-not further, and even as someone with a trove of arties I've made it clear I don't mind if I get nerfed if it brings balance more in line and the haves and haves-not closer, but opt-in to theft does not do that, this is something that you can do with just selfishness, rewearing triggers and keeping an eye on your stuff and where you put it. I feel I am 99% safe outside of my internet doing shenanigans or something I am missing, but at worst I lose a few sigils that are close to decaying, or one of my many empty packs. 


    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Taryius says, "Oops, thats not a foray. Thats two novices going at it in the wilderness."
    Caelan
  • MorsulMorsul Member Posts: 112 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Theft as a system simply shouldn't exist. Even with all this casing crap, it's still 0 recourse for the victim and a win-win for the thief.

    It doesn't matter that this new thing brings down theft victims from 100 to 10; it should never be possible that someone can get away with stealing value from another without any real consequences.

    I'll waiting for the typical "but you can hire" joke of an excuse just because it's Wednesday and the midweek is always slow. I need a good laugh.
  • MinifieMinifie Member Posts: 2,346 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Morsul said:
    Theft as a system simply shouldn't exist. Even with all this casing crap, it's still 0 recourse for the victim and a win-win for the thief.

    It doesn't matter that this new thing brings down theft victims from 100 to 10; it should never be possible that someone can get away with stealing value from another without any real consequences.

    I'll waiting for the typical "but you can hire" joke of an excuse just because it's Wednesday and the midweek is always slow. I need a good laugh.
    It should also not be possible for people to try and force a multiplayer game more and more into being a completely single-player experience. If it annoys you that theft exists, you can take precautions to be immune to it. 


    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Taryius says, "Oops, thats not a foray. Thats two novices going at it in the wilderness."
  • TorinnTorinn Member Posts: 1,264 @ - Epic Achaean
    Sometimes admin makes content.  Sometimes you make content, unwitting or not, small role or large 
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
    Caelan
  • MinifieMinifie Member Posts: 2,346 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 7
    Asmodron said:
    Minifie said:
    Morsul said:
    no clue why the admins keep catering to the 10 or so thieves as opposed to the rest of the game's pop

    oh, wait
    give peace of mind to a few who are just terrified of there being other people and danger in the world?

    I'm going to focus on this comment, as I see people toss this around immensely whenever theft is mentioned. No one is saying they want to play in a world of no danger or of absolute solitude. As remarked earlier, players can select to take a path that is filled with risks of danger and interactions (war, combat, politics, etc.), however theft is not of the same category and to compare it as such is false.

    Theft is not the player playing the path taken that is filled with adversary and challenge, it is quite literally being logged in...and marked to be used for the amusement/benefit of another player. What is the trade-off? Apparently...the idea that you are stolen from or attempted of such? Call me crazy but...where in there lies the flavorful gaming experience one has achieved?

    The age old issue remains, unchanged: Theft benefits no one but the thief.

    As much as people want to clamor "The RP of it" or "It gives you danger, it makes it fun", such are but weak excuses to rally behind a concept that has caused far more distress to Achaea's playerbase over these many years it has existed than it ever has benefited it. A gaming mechanic should provide some form of meaningful effect to the enjoyment and experience of the game for the players involved in it. Theft has yet to showcase that other than for the thief themself.
    The issue remains with simply removing theft: You remove a part of the game from players that enjoy it, and participate in it, but all you will end up removing is pickpocket and casing. You can still break into a shop and steal everything, or a house, or a ship if you can endear yourself enough to the owner and betray them. Leadership can still pilfer an org for their own deeds, people can follow behind you and pick up every gold that drops from mobs. Theft will still exist to a degree, unless you wish to remove all forms of it, in which case it just closes yet another avenue, even if theft is distressing. Every single one of these has counter measures available, and the devs are moving towards systems that give you, if you want to put the effort, time and work in (or I guess cash but AFAIK for most, if not all, you can do without spending $$$) to protect yourself. 


    I don't think being able to steal a few million gold off someone from a lucky pickpocket is healthy, but theft is still an interesting mechanic that is unique to only a few games, because so many make sure theft can not exist at all. I may, or may not, swing my opinion towards having easy to get 100% safety measures against theft as long as you pay attention and keepup, but complete removal of the system does just that: Complete removal. 

    Edit: This may get missed, but I am all for there being more ways to reclaim your lost goods from a thief, or better forms of retaliation. I just think that is a much better path than theft removal.


    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Taryius says, "Oops, thats not a foray. Thats two novices going at it in the wilderness."
    Gror
  • AccipiterAccipiter Member Posts: 464 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Are thieves not open PK for 30 days anymore?
  • IssamIssam Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 146 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited August 7
    I agree that theft is an entirely selfish mechanic, and my opinion is that it's way more detrimental than beneficial to the game. But the writing is on the wall that it's not going to be removed, and I don't think anyone on either side of the argument is going to budge.

    Accipiter said:
    Are thieves not open PK for 30 days anymore?
    I remember a rule like this existing a long time ago, but I can't find anything in the help files beyond the fact that theft grants a lot of infamy, and therefore my assumption is that it falls under the same rules and restrictions as anything else regarding infamy (which like I said doesn't fit theft at all in my mind).

    Ryx
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,920 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Issam said:
    I agree that theft is an entirely selfish mechanic, and my opinion is that it's way more detrimental than beneficial to the game. But the writing is on the wall that it's not going to be removed, and I don't think anyone on either side of the argument is going to budge.

    Accipiter said:
    Are thieves not open PK for 30 days anymore?
    I remember a rule like this existing a long time ago, but I can't find anything in the help files beyond the fact that theft grants a lot of infamy, and therefore my assumption is that it falls under the same rules and restrictions as anything else regarding infamy (which like I said doesn't fit theft at all in my mind).
    The Open PK for 30 days was part of the old PK rules. I don't know if "known thief" would meet the criteria for a suitable roleplay justification for PK under the current rules.
  • IssamIssam Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 146 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    One easy solution to this specific problem (and only this problem, scope questions notwithstanding) would be to add a theft flag to infamy gain. If someone gains infamous status through theft, they also gain a thief flag. This thief flag would last until their infamy fully dissipates. While someone is flagged as a thief, they're a known danger to everyone else in the realm, and so they are open PK to anyone, regardless of that person's infamy or mark status. Example:

    He is an extremely credible character.
    He is one of the near-permanent Infamous.
    He is a known thief.

    Since it would last until the infamy dissipates, it would functionally make someone open PK for as long as they're still infamous as a thief. Once the infamy flag drops off, the thief flag would as well, and would not return until someone attempted theft again.

    AsmodronZbaco
  • KhelKhel Member Posts: 255 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    If they were flagged as open pk you could dogpile them though, except Profit, since he is so hard to find. Even serpents can get caught out by a group, I suspect.

    Some clarification on the rules and changed to open thieves up to some actual pain would be neat.
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