Fixing Player Housing

Reyson

What other method has someone actually used to break into your house to interrupt your private roleplay, other than prism? I know you're not going to have a log, but I'd love the anecdote. 

ETA: I'm not even going to address the other thing. If you don't see why it's stunningly fucked up to equate telling someone to buy no-prism to stop prisming to victim-shaming people who have been assaulted/harassed, I have no idea what to say to you. 

Mathilda

My goal isn't to make invaders and their supporters feel good about themselves.

Kiet

Sometimes you should really take a step back when arguing about a text game.

Reyson

You said no-prism 'only stops so much.' So, in the interest of actually drawing out something positive in the form of an upgrade to stop the other stuff, I'd like to know- what other methods have you seen people use to get into a house? 

Using telepathy to force someone to get rid of a monolith requires deaf strip (attack) and causes damage via mushroom, both of which are definitely attacks, so you can't do them to other people without a legit reason. 

I can't really think of anything else except for eye infiltration, and it's already been suggested that that should be addressed. 

So- what are we missing? Do enlighten us. 

Mathonwy

I play in Mhaldor. Does that make me an invader supporter

Accipiter

Well, if you guys read the thread, I am pretty sure I mentioned increased infamy for.prisms before anyone else brought it up, I also suggested other things like no more subdivisions which would make cities safer. And I am plenty for ways to display pretty stuff that you can't be stolen from.

But I have also mudsexed for hours straight and never been interrupted, the only stuff I have had stolen were a couple of fullplates I had left in my house when I went inactive. I don't think there is anywhere near the massive problem people seem to think there is. Sure if you are a known person you will be targetted more than those of us who have tiny social circles, but you known people usually have prettier stuff too, usually get to participate in stuff that I only get to read about in events posts even on the off chance I was online at the time.

Every single house I have been in, from the time houses were founded from guilds, has had part of the first tier of novicehood antitheft techniques. And theft berely exists anymore. Stop being scared of stuff that doesn't happen, if you are chatting in your house do it in the lounge that has furniture not your collection of rare skulls or whatever, and don't be a pussy if someone comes knocking wanting to play, it never happens anyway.

As for mining, if a mine produces more than the rift can hold that is a seperate issue and should be brought up somewhere else.

Alrena

Mathilda said:

It only takes one person who makes it a habit to break into houses to harass people for it to warrant attention. And if you're feeling insulted about being categorised with those sort of people, that's maybe a sign you're on the wrong side.

And again, the no-prism thing? It only stops so much, and furthermore, it still places all of the burden on the potential victims.

Honestly you're way out of line for comparing the two. Firstly, it's really insulting to accuse people of being the same as sexual assailants for roleplaying thieves in a text game. Second, you're insulting everyone who's dealt with real sexual assault and victim shaming by comparing it to something as trivial as losing text herbs and text minerals and being inconvenienced while you want to rp. Seriously, you think there's someone who wouldn't feel insulted for being categorised as that? If someone -actually- prisms in and emotes sexual things, that's issue worthy without a doubt. Otherwise grow the fuck up and stop bringing in a serious crime and issue to try and shame people who play the game the way they want to, just like you.

Again, prism-proof and a monolith stop just about EVERY attempt to break in. At current commodity prices, it'd cost you a bit over 700K to prism proof a house. Or, 4 rooms with no doors. Twice that for OOS, which I do recognize have a lot of other risks and downsides. The issue at this point doesn't even seem to be theft, it's coming down to "I don't want people to interrupt me when I'm busy". Doesn't it interrupt you just as much if we start a raid in your city? Most cities I know wouldn't let people stay in their house during a raid. 

Trey

Man I saw this thread poppin' and decided to stop in. This is occasional constructive input peppered among a sea of COMEDY GOLD

Mathilda

In my case, I had a plan to make an outdoor courtyard garden of sorts in the middle of my house. You can probably guess where this is going....... (track)

And again, the burden continues to lie with potential victims, since a couple of deaths (at best) is nothing to your usual invader. Not when they have the opportunity to frustrate someone, make them waste their time, and possibly make off or destroy that awesome bazaar item that was left out of the display case because the owner wanted to give her guests the ability to interact with the aforementioned item.

Accipiter

Trey said:

Man I saw this thread poppin' and decided to stop in. This is occasional constructive input peppered among a sea of COMEDY GOLD

Love you too bby

Reyson

You opt in to allow someone to track to you, though. That's 100% on you, you know that's a vulnerability. 

To wit: it's already been agreed that the methods for displaying items should be house-owner-only accessible. I can't think of anyone except Vender, in the last RL years, who's actually destroyed someone else's items. Most people steal them to ransom them back, or just to keep them, but actually going around destroying property? That's virtually unheard of, in my experience. 

Jurixe

Before this continues I must reiterate that it has already been largely agreed upon that there should be more security for items in a house, e.g. lockable chests. We're past that point now so when talking about house security/intrusion, please exclude that factor and reconsider the suggestions made this far. 

Theft is a significant motivator for intrusions. Without it, I think you'll find the instances you'e worried about will decrease significantly.

I appreciate that many people have grievances with past house incursions, but rehashing the incidents that have already been talked about only drop us into circular arguments and, it seems, unnecessary frustration. Maybe I'll repost a summary of the points so far later so we can add new points, not keep on arguing the same ones.

In regards to tracking, that has also been discussed and it's generally agreed that an upgrade to prevent track is desirable. Perhaps tacked on to no prism or perma monolith.

Meanwhile, I would appreciate if all parties try to avoid having this thread shut down, as previously requested. Before you make an impassioned argument either way, take the time to read through what's already been written and consider if your comment is saying anything new or if it really adds any value to this thread.

Mathilda

Alrena said:

The issue at this point doesn't even seem to be theft, it's coming down to "I don't want people to interrupt me when I'm busy". Doesn't it interrupt you just as much if we start a raid in your city? Most cities I know wouldn't let people stay in their house during a raid. 

So raid the city, at least in that way you get to fight people with actual PK ability, and the burdens are shared by that city as a whole instead of the single homeowner (because as has been said, guests have no rights!).

And it's not about the crime per se, but the similar attitudes and worldviews that perpetuate and encourage those things to happen.

Reyson

So no one should ever attack anyone else, because it might be inconsiderate? 

Or is it conflict by appointment only? 

Or can you only inconvenience people who 'deserve it?' 

I'm really not sure where you're going with this. 

Minifie

Mhaldor has a free time slot Tuesday, May 15th if anyone wants to raid. Unfortunately we are all booked until then, I can sign you up to be alerted if someone pulls out of their appointment though!

Mathilda

It's simple. If someone doesn't want to be involved with that sort of interaction at that specific point in time, they should be allowed to do so. 

If you drop in on a conversation between friends and they include you (even as an antagonist), great. If not, then ideally, they should have the option to not involve you. The problem lies with the fact that methods to solve this are very limited: ships (also super secure temples). And furthermore, ship security itself is abused by people who want to escape all consequences from conflicts that they themselves have started.

It would be good to differentiate those two sorts of people: those who just want to be left alone for a bit, and those who want to never face consequences from their crap. I am hopeful, at least, that more people would be amenable to protecting the former and discouraging the latter,

Reyson

Nicola already posted, in this thread, that the admins don't like the seclusion ships afford, and that the only reason they haven't changed the way they work is because people would bitch up a storm about it. 

Now you want to add more of what the admins explicitly have told us they don't like.

For the record, you're not advocating for security, you're advocating for non-interaction. Non-interaction on a wide scale is a lot more harmful than someone occasionally being prismed to because they weren't careful/couldn't be arsed to bash some and save up for non-prism. 

Removing yourself from even the -possibility- of having someone unplanned and unwarranted enter your bubble within the game world is an incredibly harmful desire, and one of the biggest and most significant changes (in the sense of Achaea's identity as a game) was just implemented because gems and veils encouraged non-interaction. Think of how much grief the admins must've gotten (and continue to get) over that, and they still felt it was the right move. Right now, you're arguing the complete opposite of that.

ETA: Nicola worded things much more kindly than that, I'm paraphrasing. 

Kiet

Mathilda said:

It's simple. If someone doesn't want to be involved with that sort of interaction at that specific point in time, they should be allowed to do so. 

If you drop in on a conversation between friends and they include you (even as an antagonist), great. If not, then ideally, they should have the option to not involve you. The problem lies with the fact that methods to solve this are very limited: ships (also super secure temples). And furthermore, ship security itself is abused by people who want to escape all consequences from conflicts that they themselves have started.

It would be good to differentiate those two sorts of people: those who just want to be left alone for a bit, and those who want to never face consequences from their crap. I am hopeful, at least, that more people would be amenable to protecting the former and discouraging the latter,

They have an option to not involve the person: walk out.

You're arguing in extreme bad faith for not even recognizing maybe you shouldn't compare text breakins to sexual assault, though, so I'm not sure why anyone's bothering.

Melodie

To actually contribute something...

I was walking through my house counting for sigils, and trying to remember what upgrades are where. A command to list all upgrades you have in a house and in what rooms, and another command to list what upgrades you have in that room alone, would be nice for us forgetful folks.

Rhivona

Melodie said:

To actually contribute something...

I was walking through my house counting for sigils, and trying to remember what upgrades are where. A command to list all upgrades you have in a house and in what rooms, and another command to list what upgrades you have in that room alone, would be nice for us forgetful folks.

Feel free to IDEA that, so we can look at how feasible this is.

On that note - everyone, do get this thread back to its original topic.

Reyson

Rhivona said:

Melodie said:

To actually contribute something...

I was walking through my house counting for sigils, and trying to remember what upgrades are where. A command to list all upgrades you have in a house and in what rooms, and another command to list what upgrades you have in that room alone, would be nice for us forgetful folks.

Feel free to IDEA that, so we can look at how feasible this is.

On that note - everyone, do get this thread back to its original topic.

Should the ideas most people have agreed with also be submitted via IDEA?

Melodie

Idea'd! Thanks Rhivona.

Rhivona

Reyson said:

Rhivona said:

Melodie said:

To actually contribute something...

I was walking through my house counting for sigils, and trying to remember what upgrades are where. A command to list all upgrades you have in a house and in what rooms, and another command to list what upgrades you have in that room alone, would be nice for us forgetful folks.

Feel free to IDEA that, so we can look at how feasible this is.

On that note - everyone, do get this thread back to its original topic.

Should the ideas most people have agreed with also be submitted via IDEA?

That's what the system is for, yes! There is never a guarantee we will actually spot ideas that are simply mentioned on the forums, after all. (Especially if they're nested between derailing posts)

Reyson

Got it! 

@Jurixe hit the IDEA board up? Your thread, after all! I feel like we've gotten some pretty concise opinions from most of the people who've pitched in thus far. 

Jacen

Reyson said:

You opt in to allow someone to track to you, though. That's 100% on you, you know that's a vulnerability. 

Disagree. I don't believe that existing in an outdoor room should equate to opting in to tracking.

Tracking is almost as big of a problem as prisming. The existence of tracking significantly impacted our RP in the Black Lotus Monastery, for example. Overshadowed every Master's ceremony we held.

Also, I don't agree with purchasing no-prism (or no-track). If I buy a house, I want to spend my money on furniture, descriptions, reactions, expansions. Having to buy upgrades to safely use the damn thing is just going to turn me off. Especially if I have to continue buying those upgrades everytime I expand.

Kayeil

Question for those more familiar with other classes as I haven't dabbled in them, with prism-proof and mono that stops the prism, wand of portals, and any other similar class abilities?

Also, for consequences on the home owner, this might only be in my city but I also think it sucks that outside of being interrupted and possibly losing your stuff that not only does it risk city security but there are city involved consequences if it happens more than once. I understand there are the above listed precautions but if one hasn't yet earned the price of no-prism then monolith only holds it off for so long, and there's a number of unexpected things that can happen which people don't think to leave the plot or journal. Such circumstances can be a parent suddenly hearing their kid get into something or getting hurt and jumping up without a thought to investigate, turning away to check on a pet getting into something, and even in my case I've DC'ed a number of times while passing the time logged in during the multiple times my grandparents have been at the hospital (in this case I am thankful for the way ships are now currently). Things like that where the trespasser has perfect timing and the homeowner gets screwed by something in real life is where I agree with those who feel it's very lopsided on consequences and I'm still not sure the Marks system is enough, but I'm also at a loss for what a better alternative is and I don't envy the admins for their positions.

Mindshell

Melodie said:

To actually contribute something...

I was walking through my house counting for sigils, and trying to remember what upgrades are where. A command to list all upgrades you have in a house and in what rooms, and another command to list what upgrades you have in that room alone, would be nice for us forgetful folks.

HOUSING SHOW ROOM UPGRADES. There's not one for the entire property, but you can at least check each room.

--

Also to catch one of the other claims mentioned here, mushroom sigils cannot be forced.

Reyson

What do you need a room upgrade to make it be outdoors for, except for flying into and out of it?

In terms of role-playing, you can call any room an outdoor room without adding outdoors to it. 

If you want to be able to fly out, you're by extension agreeing that others can fly in. Given rooms are not by default outdoors, how is this not opting in, given you have to confirm a room becoming an outdoor room? 

Melodie

Mindshell said:

Melodie said:

To actually contribute something...

I was walking through my house counting for sigils, and trying to remember what upgrades are where. A command to list all upgrades you have in a house and in what rooms, and another command to list what upgrades you have in that room alone, would be nice for us forgetful folks.

HOUSING SHOW ROOM UPGRADES. There's not one for the entire property, but you can at least check each room.

--

Also to catch one of the other claims mentioned here, mushroom sigils cannot be forced.

"Only the owner, or leader of the owning organisation, has sufficient privilege to do that."

Ugh. Org-owned housing for the sake of the weeping baby Jesus please, admin.

Skye

Reyson said:

In terms of role-playing, you can call any room an outdoor room without adding outdoors to it.

My OCD will not allow me to create a room that claims to be outdoors when the room title clearly states '(indoors)'.

I only walk around the gardens to harvest tho, so whatevers I guess.