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Raiding Mechanics

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  • MinifieMinifie Posts: 1,988Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited February 8
    Heavily slated by escrow, numbers, novices, skill... Need details mang! We've apparently:

    out escrowed
    out numbered
    out skilled
    out attritioned
    out reinforced

    These always come AFTER every fight. I'm going to assume many egos get hurt lately, and excuses are being trotted out as much as possible because people REALLY can't handle an L.

    My favourite was myself, kiet, alrena getting a sanction in a 3v6 and apparently we out auto'd... I'm REALLY curious where people get these facts from, because it sounds like it comes from butthurts who shrivel up and die whenever they take a loss...

    And yes, I've done the same because I've gotten an intense pang of butthurt and had to rage, but I'll be the first to admit I do and say stupid things at that point, and can accept that what I say is clouded by bias from a certain event at that time. I can only think of a handful of times our enemies have specifically used some shitty tactics to crush us, and that's over the last 6 months. The forums are making it sound like Mhaldor does this many times a day, everyday, and that is disingenuous at best, and paint-chip eating retarded at worst. 



    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Taryius says, "Oops, thats not a foray. Thats two novices going at it in the wilderness."
  • FarrahFarrah Posts: 2,051Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Makarios said:
    Antidas said:
    I might be the minority here, but I actually wish the changes had gone in the opposite way. That is, sanctions are still easy to achieve, but charging the tank itself is more difficult. I would have preferred to see raider deaths negatively charge a tank rather than simply see them negatively charge a sanction attempt. None of the changes address the issue that a single failed engagement on the side of the defenders can result in a blown room, nor the fact that long drawn out engagements where the defenders get just as many kills as the raiders (or more, sometimes) can result in the room blowing simply by attrition. Doesn't matter if you were winning the fight, because despite the fact that defenders got 50 kills and raiders only got 10, those 10 were enough to blow the tank.

    Disclaimer: obviously there are skewed numbers, just pulled them out of my ass to throw in here. You get the point.

    This was on the table but we decided against it for various reasons. Notably, a big one is that level 2 and 3 tanks happen infrequently enough as it is that a change of that nature would probably make them a nonfactor.



    They're going to become more of a non-factor if people can't get sanctions as often too. I really dislike gating sanction behind anything more than it already was. It was the most annoying part of raiding: "Will we actually be able to initiate a raid?"

    At this point, I think I'd prefer to not have to get any kills at all to obtain sanction and instead just have some other limitation on how often you can do it or whatever. So adding more kills to the requirement is the exact opposite of what I think was needed.

    Making sanction more difficult to obtain is discouraging for any group that can't bring some huge group all at once to completely best the other team despite defensive advantages. And even if you can bring such a group, your success hinges entirely on the other group deciding to engage you in spite of you having the advantage, which a lot of defenses won't do. A lot of sanctions are gained by just barely getting 6 kills with a small group because that's what defenders are willing to fight against.

    And it makes me not want to defend the stupid raids against Targ anymore, because I know I won't be able to even attempt to retaliate because of sanction mechanics. If you bring a team that can win, people don't defend. If you bring a team that's likely to lose, now you can't even get sanction.

    Reyson
  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 4,771Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kiet said:
    You had farrah + you, karren, mezghar, braver, several other heavy hitters vs a team that was 1-2 smaller than yours. I purposefully stayed out of it, as did Aegoth and a few others! The raiders had like Iaki/Crixos , true, but also several novices and midbies. You can't claim that's 'heavily' skewed lol.

    This is not true. Karren logged in after you had already been in for 10+ minutes, Braver was never around that I saw. The group that gathered to defend was Farrah and I, Xandir and a bunch of little ones. It was heavily skewed in Mhaldor favor, which is fine.

    Rage killing the Descent is laughable though.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • AralayaAralaya Posts: 1,148Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Atalkez said:
    Kiet said:
    You had farrah + you, karren, mezghar, braver, several other heavy hitters vs a team that was 1-2 smaller than yours. I purposefully stayed out of it, as did Aegoth and a few others! The raiders had like Iaki/Crixos , true, but also several novices and midbies. You can't claim that's 'heavily' skewed lol.

    This is not true. Karren logged in after you had already been in for 10+ minutes, Braver was never around that I saw. The group that gathered to defend was Farrah and I, Xandir and a bunch of little ones. It was heavily skewed in Mhaldor favor, which is fine.

    Rage killing the Descent is laughable though.
    so I'm a little one now? rude :frown:


    Tecton-Today at 6:17 PM

    teehee b.u.t.t. pirates
  • KietKiet Posts: 3,047Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited February 8
    Atalkez said:
    Kiet said:
    You had farrah + you, karren, mezghar, braver, several other heavy hitters vs a team that was 1-2 smaller than yours. I purposefully stayed out of it, as did Aegoth and a few others! The raiders had like Iaki/Crixos , true, but also several novices and midbies. You can't claim that's 'heavily' skewed lol.

    This is not true. Karren logged in after you had already been in for 10+ minutes, Braver was never around that I saw. The group that gathered to defend was Farrah and I, Xandir and a bunch of little ones. It was heavily skewed in Mhaldor favor, which is fine.

    Rage killing the Descent is laughable though.
    Oh yeah, was Baenor not Braver, but he's pretty artied too iirc. Karren was definitely there pretty early on, though, and so was Mezghar and Nazihk. If they were just afk and didn't respond at all, fair enough, but we can only go off your QW. The group purposefully counted people out to make it fairish, though @Dragonknight snuck in like a pleb. You can hardly tell me a guy that logs in like once a year is any more threatening than Aralaya, though.

    We had a bunch of little ones, too, though, it's still not 'heavily skewed.'
  • AralayaAralaya Posts: 1,148Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Karren wasn't there until we were already in the descent and sitting there.
    Mezghar and Nazihk weren't a part of the defence afaik.


    Tecton-Today at 6:17 PM

    teehee b.u.t.t. pirates
  • SyndraSyndra Posts: 45Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    This was my enemy list from QW as I was putting the party together. Most of those have defended against us. As you notice there's no Merio nor Zary. They were accidents who were grouped with your defenders. I try my best to keep things fair. I had half a group of newbie combatants with me, plus Chiam, Crixos, Saeva, and Iakimen who were my seasoned veterans. Kiet and Aegoth were not there. 

    Alasiel
    Aralaya
    Atalkez
    Baenor
    Elipise
    Farrah
    Garis
    Issam
    Itkovian
    Karren
    Laodoke
    Mezghar
    Nazihk
    Talamond
    Valonstrus
    Xandir
  • FarrahFarrah Posts: 2,051Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean

    We had 10 people total and Mhaldor had 10 people total. Four of ours were 30% of my might or less and less than 20 years old, though. I was constantly fullsensing and assessing this to see whether we could conceivably rush, so these numbers are exact.

    I'm not sure where Braver's name came from as he was never there. Karren did login mid-raid, but logged right back out. He couldn't stay. Nazihk was afk on a ship. Some of those names you have were probably people who left before you came there. Fullsense (after some time to group up and return to city, ofc) is the best indicator of who is actually there to defend.

    These were the teams, with their levels and % of my own might (I was curious, so I actually looked them up):

    Atalkez - 90% (dragon)
    me - 100% (dragon)
    Mezghar - 80% (level 92)
    Baenor - 110% (level 91)
    Aralaya - 80% (level 87)
    Xandir - 75% (level 83)
    Valonstrus - 15% (level 80)
    Merio - 15% (level 79)
    Alasiel - 25% (level 75)
    Laodoke - 30% (level 71)

    v

    Syndra - 110% (dragon)
    Crixos - 100% (dragon)
    Saeva - 75% (dragon)
    Chiam - 50% (dragon)
    Iakimen - 110% (dragon)
    Dragonknight - 105%  (level 98)
    Ismay - 95% (level 92)
    Khadafi - 45% (level 79)
    Thalyssra - 45% (level 79)
    Naelrhi - 55% (level 79)

    Our team was a lot more low-might-heavy and also a lot less dragon-heavy. I wouldn't really call these 'fair.'

    Asmodron
  • KietKiet Posts: 3,047Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited February 8
    It's not really our fault or something we could've predicted that Issam, Itkovian, Karren (who apparently 'got there later' but I saw near the start so idk), Nazihk, Garis  and Talamond chose not to or couldn't defend, though.

    When you have to ignore half your QW and start pulling out % numbers to show the teams are uneven it's not 'heavily skewed' imo. If those people all didn't want to or couldn't defend, sure, the teams are uneven. Certainly not maliciously or in any predictable way, though.

    Considering we willingly sat people out and DK literally said 'I can leave if needed' (but was told not to because we assumed everyone was defending), it'd have been pretty simple to send an OOC message (to syndra or, eg, iakimen who's always happy to raid disadvantaged) you were missing all those people or something, too! The narrative that we're just bringing in massive numbers to purposefully stomp doesn't really hold up to reality
    CailinLaedha
  • MinifieMinifie Posts: 1,988Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kiet said:
    It's not really our fault or something we could've predicted that Issam, Itkovian, Karren (who apparently 'got there later' but I saw near the start so idk), Garis  and Talamond chose not to or couldn't defend, though.

    When you have to ignore half your QW and start pulling out % numbers to show the teams are uneven it's not 'heavily skewed' imo. If those people all didn't want to or couldn't defend, sure, the teams are uneven. Certainly not maliciously or in any predictable way, though.
    I mean if we want to avoid this in future we can put some nice big pop ups:

    {City} is raiding you, will you fight? Y/N
    Choose fighters

    After you confirm, you can not add fighters and they can not take part, are you sure?

    {City} is raiding with: A B C D E F G H
    You are defending with: I J K L M N O P Q

    Accept to begin the engagement!

    Otherwise, people are going to assume on engagement #1 and redistribute and fix afterwards. Go in with too few and the element of surprise is gone, go in with too many and you don't get anything fun, just a roflstomp. It's something that actively takes a shot first to be able to show the target. 

    The other option is to just take 100% of who you can and damn the other side, but that isn't healthy for the game at all.


    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Taryius says, "Oops, thats not a foray. Thats two novices going at it in the wilderness."
  • FarrahFarrah Posts: 2,051Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited February 8

    Do people not actually use fullsense, presences, pre-eminence...? I mean, once the defense group is gathered, it's pretty easy to see who our group is. You can't tell me Mhaldor didn't know who was standing in the Descent when they decided to come gank us there. I'm sure they used location abilities and saw. I'm not faulting anyone for coming into the city. I'm just saying they didn't leave, and chose to gank people who decided against defending instead of leaving.

    It's all fine though. I don't why we hijacked this thread now. I just want to rant about the sanction change, not specific raids. I got distracted by people bickering about this, and my only point was that it wasn't even, not that anything terrible happened.

    Mhaldor has been huge lately a lot of the time, and is dealing with some of what Targossas dealt with not long ago where we always limited fights and people yelled at us for being unfair anyway.

  • CyrCyr Posts: 104Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I think from comments I consistently see on Ashtan that many people vastly overrate how good (and to a degree artefacted) the city is at fighting because good leadership can cover a great many sins (and also because Ashtan has a historical reputation as a powerhouse). By and large our 'A-Team' as it were is very rarely all on at the same time. For most of these raids (that I've been a part of) there have been around 2-5 people I'd consider part of that group. As far as the uneven raids, I don't really give a shit tbh. It's not that fun, but I get plenty of entertainment killing/helping kill people for it later, and it's all a cyclical thing anyways.

    Dunn tells you, "I hate you."
  • ChiamChiam Posts: 144Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I usually try to honours someone before we hit if I'm unfamiliar with their name, but sometimes when all of the enemies' names (same color) are in the same room you'd just yolo and attack coz they're gonna die anyway. to be fair though the newbies did get beckoned in so I agree it was our fault.

    ps: Valonstrus did start a behead on Crixos so it was probably ok to kill him
  • MinifieMinifie Posts: 1,988Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited February 8
    Chiam said:
    I usually try to honours someone before we hit if I'm unfamiliar with their name, but sometimes when all of the enemies' names (same color) are in the same room you'd just yolo and attack coz they're gonna die anyway. to be fair though the newbies did get beckoned in so I agree it was our fault.

    ps: Valonstrus did start a behead on Crixos so it was probably ok to kill him
    Nothing wrong with beheading Crixos, play on. 


    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Taryius says, "Oops, thats not a foray. Thats two novices going at it in the wilderness."
  • DragonknightDragonknight Posts: 252Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I'm sorry :'(

    Kiet
  • TysandrTysandr Posts: 441Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Dragonknight, how are you not yet a dragon. C'mon man :(
    Nexus: Accents, Autotriggers, Dragon Talismans
    "As the child did... without the rope. Then fear will find you again."

  • DragonknightDragonknight Posts: 252Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    It's a long story, filled with tears and unknightly things. Oh by the way, have you noticed I'm not a knight either?
    KietTysandr
  • XadenXaden Posts: 2,315Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    This is just gonna encourage a two man entry with a ten man earring follow up on engagement.

    Until people very quickly cotton onto to it and just say fuck it and not bother defending at all.
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

  • MathildaMathilda Posts: 881Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Mathilda said:
    Sure on all citizen deaths contributing to the tank charge, but there has to be stricter rules (and punishments) to not involve citizens unless they have explicitly involved themselves in the raid.
    Cooper said:
    That rule is already in place.
    Say again...?
     <3 
  • RangorRangor Posts: 3,158Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    See. The strategy to get a sanction with the new system is easy. You place a small group we will call "bait" in the enemy city. They spool up their defensive stuff and wait for enemy rush. Have a waterlord or depthswalker ready to Beckon/tsunami. Then when enemy is in room, you earring in with the real raid group with massively superior numbers. Get 5 kills and then you can choose to stay and bash guards that will be used, or split up the group and pray that no constables arrive.
    image
  • ReysonReyson Posts: 523Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Xaden said:
    This is just gonna encourage a two man entry with a ten man earring follow up on engagement.

    Until people very quickly cotton onto to it and just say fuck it and not bother defending at all.
    @Rangor
    Rangor
  • RangorRangor Posts: 3,158Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Reyson said:
    Xaden said:
    This is just gonna encourage a two man entry with a ten man earring follow up on engagement.

    Until people very quickly cotton onto to it and just say fuck it and not bother defending at all.
    @Rangor
    Was too many posts. Couldn't read them all. Brain said no.
    image
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormPosts: 3,059Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited February 8
    This just in, photographic evidence of Mhaldor raid practices...

    :D


    (this is the earring group)

    Not the use of "big guns" :trollface:


    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
    ChiamIsmay
  • MinifieMinifie Posts: 1,988Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited February 8
    Image result for toucannon

    Image result for toucannon

    me waiting to earring in.


    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Taryius says, "Oops, thats not a foray. Thats two novices going at it in the wilderness."
    TaryiusNyneve
  • IssamIssam Posts: 71Member, Secret Squirrel ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Syndra said:
    This was my enemy list from QW as I was putting the party together. Most of those have defended against us. As you notice there's no Merio nor Zary. They were accidents who were grouped with your defenders. I try my best to keep things fair. I had half a group of newbie combatants with me, plus Chiam, Crixos, Saeva, and Iakimen who were my seasoned veterans. Kiet and Aegoth were not there. 

    Alasiel
    Aralaya
    Atalkez
    Baenor
    Elipise
    Farrah
    Garis
    Issam
    Itkovian
    Karren
    Laodoke
    Mezghar
    Nazihk
    Talamond
    Valonstrus
    Xandir
    You have to do your recon better because I didn't even log on yesterday. Also grouping me (and probably other people judging from this list) into 'can't or won't fight' is weird when, as mentioned, not even online.

  • CaelanCaelan Posts: 1,238Member @ - Epic Achaean
    edited February 8
    Ah raids!! 

    "Let's go show them how big our dicks are"..  
    ---- "OMG IT IS TOO BIG"
    "Seriously, it wasn't *that* big, I don't understand the complaints"

    -- or --
    "LEt's go raid <city>"
    'Nah, I don't have time to defend and lawyer up the raid after the fact on forums.'

    Accipiter
  • DochithaDochitha Posts: 1,303Member @ - Epic Achaean
    RAIDWHO

    RAID DECLARE city

    City does not appear to have enough armies at this time to defend the size of your forces. Please try again later.

    COOLDOWNS
    Raid: 14 minutes and 48 seconds

    Wtf. 
  • SyndraSyndra Posts: 45Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    @issam Then someone used a chameleon tattoo of you, which I have no way of knowing if it's you or not when I put the list together until I'm inside.
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