Raiding Mechanics

Atalkez

I didn’t accuse you, I merely pointed it out. Regardless of what Mhaldor thinks, if every other faction is saying you raid with poor numbers, I think that’s pretty telling. I’ve seen it done personally, and I’ve done it too. No one is innocent.

Regardless, Mhaldor doesn’t admit fault on really anything, so I’m not surprised to see the denials/rebuttals already. Always some justification.

Elisella

I truly am sorry to see skirmish style raiding go away.

*raiders A and B show up*
*defends*
*raiders A and B get one kill before bursting twice and urning away*
*stands down*
*raiders A and B show up, get one kill before bursting twice and urning away*
*waits*
*raiders A and B show up, get one kill before bursting twice and urning away*
*waits*
*raiders A and B show up, get one kill before bursting twice and urning away*
*waits*
*raiders A and B show up, get one kill before bursting twice and urning away*
*waits*
*raiders A and B show up, get one kill, urn away to swap classes now that sanction is in effect*
*waits*
*raiders A through J show up in one exit room with full vibes/totems/harmonics/timewell*
*looks at clock, sighs*

Kiet

Atalkez said:

I didn’t accuse you, I merely pointed it out. Regardless of what Mhaldor thinks, if every other faction is saying you raid with poor numbers, I think that’s pretty telling. I’ve seen it done personally, and I’ve done it too. No one is innocent.

Regardless, Mhaldor doesn’t admit fault on really anything, so I’m not surprised to see the denials/rebuttals already. Always some justification.

Ultimately people can say whatever. I'll happily admit we outnumbered Targ the few times (and Farrah still defended, which was brave!), and that we've outgunned some of the other cities through experience sometimes.

We can't really outnumber other cities nearly as consistently as we're accused, though. It's just not mathematically possible. Tysandr's from Ashtan, though, and last time we got accused of 'massively outnumbering' when it was 13v15 our favour (by an Ashtani's count), and they had their full a-team and we had a mix of novices, midbies, and only a few of our top.

Aegoth

Atalkez said:

Regardless, Mhaldor doesn’t admit fault on really anything, so I’m not surprised to see the denials/rebuttals already. Always some justification.

This part, in particular, is fairly rich coming from Targ. I haven't enough popcorn to dole out. Alas..

Atalkez

That’s a extremely exaggerated scenario. The kill timer doesn’t last anywhere near long enough for that, if you have to leave the city after each single kill. It’s rarely going to be 6 single kills with deaths in between every time, redeffing and inking then going back.

Kiet

Atalkez said:

That’s a extremely exaggerated scenario. The kill timer doesn’t last anywhere near long enough for that, if you have to leave the city after each single kill. It’s rarely going to be 6 single kills with deaths in between every time, redeffing and inking then going back.

It's a bit exaggerated, but not really that far from reality. I've seen it happen to us and from us.

Atalkez

Sure, and I never said that situation was a good one. It did allow for smaller raiding parties, which this new system won’t, as Farrah pointed out.

If I have to get +6 kills to get sanction, now I have to bring the entirety or most of the group to even try.

Nazihk

The problem with the new sanction mechanic is that it makes taking lowbies and newbies and unartifacted people into a raid a massive disadvantage.

Take somebody like Aralaya, for example. She plays a lot, she enjoys participating, she tries hard. But, let's be honest here: She has 4500 health, and she's crazy easy to kill with damage, especially with LoS damage because she can be vulnerable to a surprisingly small volley. In a system like this, people like that become a straight up liability because they're so easy to crush, and crushing them reduces sanction progress.

I'd rather not have a system that penalizes you for taking new/inexperienced/squishy people along for the ride.

Kiet

Atalkez said:

Sure, and I never said that situation was a good one. It did allow for smaller raiding parties, which this new system won’t, as Farrah pointed out.

If I have to get +6 kills to get sanction, now I have to bring the entirety or most of the group to even try.

But what was the point of the sanction if you didn't have more people on stand-by for the tank portion? That's what seemed to be the most common scenario.

This only encourages actually small raid groups, because small raid groups (under 5) don't usually want to tank anyway, just fight.

Kiet

Nazihk said:

The problem with the new sanction mechanic is that it makes taking lowbies and newbies and unartifacted people into a raid a massive disadvantage.

Take somebody like Aralaya, for example. She plays a lot, she enjoys participating, she tries hard. But, let's be honest here: She has 4500 health, and she's crazy easy to kill with damage, especially with LoS damage because she can be vulnerable to a surprisingly small volley. In a system like this, people like that become a straight up liability because they're so easy to crush, and crushing them reduces sanction progress.

I'd rather not have a system that penalizes you for taking new/inexperienced/squishy people along for the ride.

Isn't that encouraging you to only sanction with smaller, elite, groups, then? It can't both encourage and discourage smaller groups, and almost no one has large elite groups.

Makarios

I am inclined to agree the sanction window is probably too wide now. I'm not against dropping that down slightly, but the needing to win an engagement on the raiders side is intentional. I'm thinking from 6 to 4, but will think about that a little more before making the change.

Atalkez

Well, one day I would love to succeed on a 2-man tank. Everytime I’ve been close before, we got guarded anyway.
Doesn’t seem like this will happen ever under this new system.

It doesn’t encourage it at all, imo. Now there’s no point. I’ll just smudge defendable, or desecrate, if I want a fight.

edit: Maybe a reduction in kills required could change it. Down from 6 to 3/4/5.

edit2: Ninja’d by Mak attack

Elisella

Same goes for the defense: If I can blow up six of your lowbies faster than you can blow up mine, I get the sanction. What's your point?

If you're playing entirely to win, sure, go ahead and just send in artied people and then bring in the lowbie cavalry when you get the sanction. I'm sure other cities won't respond by just sending their artied people to defend while the lowbies evacuate the city.

Or, we could do what I've been repeating this entire time, and try and make the fight fun for both sides.

Austere

Sanction requires 6 kills no deaths? So basically, if you're not at the top of your game, you shouldn't even come? I can go 6-0 with inferior odds with the right crew, but if I add one novice raider, they are suddenly a liability to our goal? 

This change is tuned to force us to choose very carefully who we bring to get a sanction.  I think the largest drawback is going to be the forced inclusion, something I - really - don't want pk to have more of..

Edit:  @Makarios ninja'd my numbers.  Point stands. 

Kiet

Atalkez said:

Well, one day I would love to succeed on a 2-man tank. Everytime I’ve been close before, we got guarded anyway.
Doesn’t seem like this will happen ever under this new system.

It doesn’t encourage it at all, imo. Now there’s no point. I’ll just smudge defendable, or desecrate, if I want a fight.

edit: Maybe a reduction in kills required could change it. Down from 6 to 3/4/5.

edit2: Ninja’d by Mak attack

Afaik, 2 man tank is unlikely right now anyway, because sanction ticks way faster when you only have 2 people in enemy city. Of course, if the defenders engage you, sure, but if they don't you risk losing it to timer.

Atalkez

Elisella said:

Or, we could do what I've been repeating this entire time, and try and make the fight fun for both sides.

I know this is a weird concept for you, but could you try to be constructive for once?

No one raids to piss other people off, except in very fringe cases. I raid because PK is fun, and I defend for the same reason. Trying to make things fun doesn’t work if mechanics allow certain people to ruin fun for everyone involved.

Austere

Kiet said:

Atalkez said:

Well, one day I would love to succeed on a 2-man tank. Everytime I’ve been close before, we got guarded anyway.
Doesn’t seem like this will happen ever under this new system.

It doesn’t encourage it at all, imo. Now there’s no point. I’ll just smudge defendable, or desecrate, if I want a fight.

edit: Maybe a reduction in kills required could change it. Down from 6 to 3/4/5.

edit2: Ninja’d by Mak attack

Afaik, 2 man tank is unlikely right now anyway, because sanction ticks way faster when you only have 2 people in enemy city. Of course, if the defenders engage you, sure, but if they don't you risk losing it to timer.

 I've two manned tanked a few times.  Three manned is way easier, though (miss you @Achilles)

Cyr

I'm personally not a fan of these changes, but willing to see how they play out. I do think it's a concern that it potentially makes it harder to raid without overwhelming force unless you bring nothing but your best, but let's see how a close raid goes I guess. 

Ismay

Austere said:

Sanction requires 6 kills no deaths? So basically, if you're not at the top of your game, you shouldn't even come? I can go 6-0 with inferior odds with the right crew, but if I add one novice raider, they are suddenly a liability to our goal? 

This change is tuned to force us to choose very carefully who we bring to get a sanction.  I think the largest drawback is going to be the forced inclusion, something I - really - don't want pk to have more of..

Edit:  @Makarios ninja'd my numbers.  Point stands. 

Holy god, please no. We already have way too many cliquey, pk groups. We definitely don't need -anything- that's going to make things worse.

I know numbers have been weird lately, but it is a big mistake to oppose inclusion. Top tiers already have players beating down their doors just to get them to come along. Mid and lower tiers should be able to participate too, regardless of how much we suck.

Really, no elitist shit here, please.

Antidas

I might be the minority here, but I actually wish the changes had gone in the opposite way. That is, sanctions are still easy to achieve, but charging the tank itself is more difficult. I would have preferred to see raider deaths negatively charge a tank rather than simply see them negatively charge a sanction attempt. None of the changes address the issue that a single failed engagement on the side of the defenders can result in a blown room, nor the fact that long drawn out engagements where the defenders get just as many kills as the raiders (or more, sometimes) can result in the room blowing simply by attrition. Doesn't matter if you were winning the fight, because despite the fact that defenders got 50 kills and raiders only got 10, those 10 were enough to blow the tank.

Disclaimer: obviously there are skewed numbers, just pulled them out of my ass to throw in here. You get the point.

Makarios

Antidas said:

I might be the minority here, but I actually wish the changes had gone in the opposite way. That is, sanctions are still easy to achieve, but charging the tank itself is more difficult. I would have preferred to see raider deaths negatively charge a tank rather than simply see them negatively charge a sanction attempt. None of the changes address the issue that a single failed engagement on the side of the defenders can result in a blown room, nor the fact that long drawn out engagements where the defenders get just as many kills as the raiders (or more, sometimes) can result in the room blowing simply by attrition. Doesn't matter if you were winning the fight, because despite the fact that defenders got 50 kills and raiders only got 10, those 10 were enough to blow the tank.

Disclaimer: obviously there are skewed numbers, just pulled them out of my ass to throw in here. You get the point.

This was on the table but we decided against it for various reasons. Notably, a big one is that level 2 and 3 tanks happen infrequently enough as it is that a change of that nature would probably make them a nonfactor.

Austere

Ismay said:

Austere said:

Sanction requires 6 kills no deaths? So basically, if you're not at the top of your game, you shouldn't even come? I can go 6-0 with inferior odds with the right crew, but if I add one novice raider, they are suddenly a liability to our goal? 

This change is tuned to force us to choose very carefully who we bring to get a sanction.  I think the largest drawback is going to be the forced inclusion, something I - really - don't want pk to have more of..

Edit:  Makarios ninja'd my numbers.  Point stands. 

Holy god, please no. We already have way too many cliquey, pk groups. We definitely don't need -anything- that's going to make things worse.

I know numbers have been weird lately, but it is a big mistake to oppose inclusion. Top tiers already have players beating down their doors just to get them to come along. Mid and lower tiers should be able to participate too, regardless of how much we suck.

Really, no elitist shit here, please.

I meant forced exclusion.. sorry was fighting off a three year old.  

I really do worry that raiding could potentially end up requiring you to cut your weaker links, which I am whole heartily against.  I want pk to be as open and accessible as possibly and this really seems like it is going to be counter productive, at least offensively.  

Makarios

Austere said:

Ismay said:

Austere said:

Sanction requires 6 kills no deaths? So basically, if you're not at the top of your game, you shouldn't even come? I can go 6-0 with inferior odds with the right crew, but if I add one novice raider, they are suddenly a liability to our goal? 

This change is tuned to force us to choose very carefully who we bring to get a sanction.  I think the largest drawback is going to be the forced inclusion, something I - really - don't want pk to have more of..

Edit:  Makarios ninja'd my numbers.  Point stands. 

Holy god, please no. We already have way too many cliquey, pk groups. We definitely don't need -anything- that's going to make things worse.

I know numbers have been weird lately, but it is a big mistake to oppose inclusion. Top tiers already have players beating down their doors just to get them to come along. Mid and lower tiers should be able to participate too, regardless of how much we suck.

Really, no elitist shit here, please.

I meant forced exclusion.. sorry was fighting off a three year old.  

I really do worry that raiding could potentially end up requiring you to cut your weaker links, which I am whole heartily against.  I want pk to be as open and accessible as possibly and this really seems like it is going to be counter productive, at least offensively.  

I am 99% sure this is a false assumption, as the exact concern was raised (but from the defending side) on city destruction's release. I'm sure someone will experiment, but I think they'll quickly find that it is simply more optimal to bring people along who want to participate (both from a combat perspective and a city playerbase retention perspective). I am happy to be proved wrong though, of course! We're committed to raiding being as inclusive as possible.

Minifie

Atalkez said:

Mhaldor has been bad lately about trying to raid with skewed numbers. Several people from differing factions have said as much.

Lots of people say the earth is flat too, doesn’t mean you give people that stupid the time of day.

Atalkez

Can we quit with the Mhaldor does no wrong and everyone who says otherwise is an idiot?

Just today since my post, there have been two attempts to raid Targ, both attempts heavily slated in Mhaldors favor. @Dunn mentioned you did the same to Ashtan earlier today. Then to top it off, ya'll rage murdered people in the Descent that you had 0 PK rights to because they wouldn't entertain your raid.

Kiet

You had farrah + you, karren, mezghar, braver, several other heavy hitters vs a team that was 1-2 smaller than yours. I purposefully stayed out of it, as did Aegoth and a few others! The raiders had like Iaki/Crixos , true, but also several novices and midbies. You can't claim that's 'heavily' skewed lol.


All these complaint raids have gotten nowhere near the level of old Ashtan or Targossas just half a year ago being happy to bring 2:1 odds.

Minifie

Heavily slated by escrow, numbers, novices, skill... Need details mang! We've apparently:

out escrowed
out numbered
out skilled
out attritioned
out reinforced

These always come AFTER every fight. I'm going to assume many egos get hurt lately, and excuses are being trotted out as much as possible because people REALLY can't handle an L.

My favourite was myself, kiet, alrena getting a sanction in a 3v6 and apparently we out auto'd... I'm REALLY curious where people get these facts from, because it sounds like it comes from butthurts who shrivel up and die whenever they take a loss...

And yes, I've done the same because I've gotten an intense pang of butthurt and had to rage, but I'll be the first to admit I do and say stupid things at that point, and can accept that what I say is clouded by bias from a certain event at that time. I can only think of a handful of times our enemies have specifically used some shitty tactics to crush us, and that's over the last 6 months. The forums are making it sound like Mhaldor does this many times a day, everyday, and that is disingenuous at best, and paint-chip eating retarded at worst. 

Farrah

Makarios said:

Antidas said:

I might be the minority here, but I actually wish the changes had gone in the opposite way. That is, sanctions are still easy to achieve, but charging the tank itself is more difficult. I would have preferred to see raider deaths negatively charge a tank rather than simply see them negatively charge a sanction attempt. None of the changes address the issue that a single failed engagement on the side of the defenders can result in a blown room, nor the fact that long drawn out engagements where the defenders get just as many kills as the raiders (or more, sometimes) can result in the room blowing simply by attrition. Doesn't matter if you were winning the fight, because despite the fact that defenders got 50 kills and raiders only got 10, those 10 were enough to blow the tank.

Disclaimer: obviously there are skewed numbers, just pulled them out of my ass to throw in here. You get the point.

This was on the table but we decided against it for various reasons. Notably, a big one is that level 2 and 3 tanks happen infrequently enough as it is that a change of that nature would probably make them a nonfactor.

They're going to become more of a non-factor if people can't get sanctions as often too. I really dislike gating sanction behind anything more than it already was. It was the most annoying part of raiding: "Will we actually be able to initiate a raid?"

At this point, I think I'd prefer to not have to get any kills at all to obtain sanction and instead just have some other limitation on how often you can do it or whatever. So adding more kills to the requirement is the exact opposite of what I think was needed.

Making sanction more difficult to obtain is discouraging for any group that can't bring some huge group all at once to completely best the other team despite defensive advantages. And even if you can bring such a group, your success hinges entirely on the other group deciding to engage you in spite of you having the advantage, which a lot of defenses won't do. A lot of sanctions are gained by just barely getting 6 kills with a small group because that's what defenders are willing to fight against.

And it makes me not want to defend the stupid raids against Targ anymore, because I know I won't be able to even attempt to retaliate because of sanction mechanics. If you bring a team that can win, people don't defend. If you bring a team that's likely to lose, now you can't even get sanction.

Atalkez

Kiet said:

You had farrah + you, karren, mezghar, braver, several other heavy hitters vs a team that was 1-2 smaller than yours. I purposefully stayed out of it, as did Aegoth and a few others! The raiders had like Iaki/Crixos , true, but also several novices and midbies. You can't claim that's 'heavily' skewed lol.

This is not true. Karren logged in after you had already been in for 10+ minutes, Braver was never around that I saw. The group that gathered to defend was Farrah and I, Xandir and a bunch of little ones. It was heavily skewed in Mhaldor favor, which is fine.

Rage killing the Descent is laughable though.

Aralaya

Atalkez said:

Kiet said:

You had farrah + you, karren, mezghar, braver, several other heavy hitters vs a team that was 1-2 smaller than yours. I purposefully stayed out of it, as did Aegoth and a few others! The raiders had like Iaki/Crixos , true, but also several novices and midbies. You can't claim that's 'heavily' skewed lol.

This is not true. Karren logged in after you had already been in for 10+ minutes, Braver was never around that I saw. The group that gathered to defend was Farrah and I, Xandir and a bunch of little ones. It was heavily skewed in Mhaldor favor, which is fine.

Rage killing the Descent is laughable though.

so I'm a little one now? rude :frown: