Quick Combat Questions

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  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USA
    Ahmet said:
    So... it should be fine for someone to ruin my time with a bug, just because I can then go forth and ruin someone else's experience with that same bug?

    Seems dickish to me, and I'd definitely advise against it until one of the admins comments on it.
    I think this is reducto ad absurdium; the scope of the bug is a key factor. Normally a bug is an isolated act, an unorthodox exploit that can be easily avoided. The problem here is that the bug encompasses the entire core mechanic of Magi combat, chaining Balance/EQ actions together, and so is slightly harder to avoid. To avoid "abusing" the bug, you're either expecting every Magi to write two sets of aliases, a normal set and a Ret set, or you're expecting them to abstain from using one of their most potent abilities, neither of which is very reasonable.

    Thus, because it is not fair to expect Magi to re-write their entire systems because of a flaw in the code, and nor is it fair to expect Magi to abstain from use of Retardation because that flaw has proved difficult to fix, then the only reasonable recourse is to accept the current imperfect reality as reality nonetheless and adapt until the issue is resolved. Tanris once said that the best combat advice he was ever given was something to the tune of "Approach combat like classleads and bugfixes don't exist." We survived Web/AXK, we can survive this.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
  • Omor said:
    Frederich said:
    @Klendathu

    She could have THREE amnesia pets in Ret.

    HELP PETS:
    6)  Amnesia - 400 Bound Credits (except: see GIFTS)

    Your pet will sometimes afflict your enemies in combat with amnesia.
    NOTE: you may only get amnesia OR custom attack message, but not both.

    More about attacks: no other attacks are allowed for any pets, at any price. Only amnesia is allowed as an attack for pets. Also you may only purchase two amnesia pets per character.

    Older people (like Bleak) have 3 amnesia pets. They stopped doing it when they realised it was fucked
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna be
    She could have also brought the pet that does damage and afflicts demetia :innocent:
    Huh. Neat.
  • I don't like the Amnesia pets.. Relapsing Amnesia in Aeon has been a core strategy for shamans and jesters and requires a crap ton of fashions and an opponent who doesn't check for concussion...

    With pets and retardation you get that super strong strategy whenever you want at a flick of a switch.. Perhaps if Amnesia pets didn't fire in retardation or fired at a reduced rate.. 

    Perhaps I'm also just ranting as you can always just not fight in retardation
  • edited March 2017
    Unless things have changed, amnesia pets are nothing like concussion because the amnesia line isn't hidden. You can just trigger it to do something and negate it. 

    That is, amnesia in Aeon used to be (and I assume still is) triggerable by entering a command, but if you don't enter one, it'll trigger at the end of your sluggish movement, eliminating your command.

    That was key to countering concussion/slow. You enter the smoke command, then tap it again just before it goes through to steal the amnesia from concussion. But with the pets it is super easy to trigger because you see it hit.
  • I queue all my attacks and things with stand/stand, is this viable against amnesia?
  • With the queue bug, yeah, until it's fixed. Otherwise that wouldn't work in aeon/retardation.
  • Aerek said:
    Ahmet said:
    So... it should be fine for someone to ruin my time with a bug, just because I can then go forth and ruin someone else's experience with that same bug?

    Seems dickish to me, and I'd definitely advise against it until one of the admins comments on it.
    I think this is reducto ad absurdium; the scope of the bug is a key factor. Normally a bug is an isolated act, an unorthodox exploit that can be easily avoided. The problem here is that the bug encompasses the entire core mechanic of Magi combat, chaining Balance/EQ actions together, and so is slightly harder to avoid. To avoid "abusing" the bug, you're either expecting every Magi to write two sets of aliases, a normal set and a Ret set, or you're expecting them to abstain from using one of their most potent abilities, neither of which is very reasonable.

    Thus, because it is not fair to expect Magi to re-write their entire systems because of a flaw in the code, and nor is it fair to expect Magi to abstain from use of Retardation because that flaw has proved difficult to fix, then the only reasonable recourse is to accept the current imperfect reality as reality nonetheless and adapt until the issue is resolved. Tanris once said that the best combat advice he was ever given was something to the tune of "Approach combat like classleads and bugfixes don't exist." We survived Web/AXK, we can survive this.
    The problem here is now you look like you didn't even read the log that started conversation this conversation. We were not discussing standard play in retardation and how queuing happens to work in ret. We're talking about someone who took this fact and then made their whole entire offense revolve around ret and the use of this bug. So no. I do not think its unreasonable to ask someone not to be a fucking dick.
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo Domingo
    edited March 2017
    There's a very easy solution to the issue. Don't fight her if it bothers you that much. Thats exactly what I do.

    As people have pointed above, this is the way things stand now. So while it might be a bit unpalatable, its not really any different from what everyone else is doing.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • Keep in mind, we don't want everyone with credits to blow to go double amnesia pet and magi to spam this so we just see less and less wanting to fight. This is a known bug, if your system already breaks it but you use that same system normally, no worries.

    if you built something AROUND the use of this bug, that is exploiting.
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo Domingo
    Everyone is exploiting it anyway. Pointing fingers just seems self-serving.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • Shirszae said:
    Everyone is exploiting it anyway. Pointing fingers just seems self-serving.
    No. Everyone is not. I'm not.
  • Kogan said:
    Shirszae said:
    Everyone is exploiting it anyway. Pointing fingers just seems self-serving.
    No. Everyone is not. I'm not.

  • edited March 2017
    Aegoth said:
    Kogan said:
    Shirszae said:
    Everyone is exploiting it anyway. Pointing fingers just seems self-serving.
    No. Everyone is not. I'm not.

    Ha, truth be told I didn't even know there was a difference in queuing serverside aliases and just queuing the actions in ret until this thread. I don't care to redo my whole offense to fight someone in ret abusing a bug to the extent of Althena. Just like most people wouldn't redo their offense to not do it... I'm not going to redo mine to abuse it. Meh.
  • Hm. Actually, I thought I fixed queueing again (after much cursing and deleting). It seems more is required.
  • Makarios said:
    Hm. Actually, I thought I fixed queueing again (after much cursing and deleting). It seems more is required.
    I hope you get a raise
  • Rip Althena's reign.
  • I haven't actually been in to test, but if that announce is Makarios' April fool's joke, I'mma be so sad...
  • edited April 2017
    Sparred @Gero earlier.  Ended up timing out with us leaving room when we absolutely had to. I haven't sparred many DW's and plan to do so to learn more, but does anyone have any general DW advice? He's quite quick at chasing, but I didn't seem to have too many issues if I had room to move. I'm a bit hesitant to wall myself in to tumble/mount jump since some of the situations I found myself in escalated quickly. I had a few scary moments where I'd suddenly find myself going from 50%h to 3% quickly between whatever he was doing and illness procs. I assume that's mutilate looking at the AB's? Hindering seemed to be enough to allow me to prio health > mana. Normally at 50% if I feel I'm ahead on momentum/don't think I'm prepped I will stick it out. Seems unsafe with DW because of mutilate? Was overall fun but I lost a lot of the log to review due to it being a long spar. He somehow lived impale/disembowel/lunge damage since he broke earlier than I thought so torso was just prepped. Not sure what else I should be looking to do to DW besides hinder/standard prep. Any advice would be appreciated! Thanks!

    Edit: I'm dwc runie myself. Also any info on how mutilate even works and what determines the damage dealt would be great. That way I know when I could instantly be put in danger.
  • AchillesAchilles Los Angeles
    Klendathu said:
    Double amnesia pets in ret is just stoopid
    Should have seen Ugrach's scorpion with full vibes and fully artied magi.  Earionduil used to abuse that for combat spars.
    image
  • @Kogan

    DW can kill from around 50% health once they have a shadow (by pairing tooros/mutilate together), so it's not particularly safe to be in the room around that point. They can also hit for around 30-35% damage each swing once they have clumsiness and weariness stuck, so things go bad way faster then you'd expect. 

    Mechanically, mutilate's damage is around 40% with the artifact dirk, but it's affected by blunt resists, so probably less then that for you between fullplate/algiz. Tooros is a terminus ability that deals another 10% damage to everyone in the room (including the dw) and only requires word balance, so it can be paired freely with mutilate.

    I'd always keep at least one exit walled, with wunjo-nairat behind it, and if he's thrown up distort, tumble before he can get you low enough for the mutilate. If he goes for preempt over distortion, you can get away easily with gallop/flying. Stick clumsiness, use paralysis/asthma/slickness for hinder, and you'll probably be able to slow him down a decent bit. In terms of your own offense, they have a health heal that they can use after they're standing, so there's a good chance that if the dsb doesn't take them out, they'll be able to use it to survive your followup. 
  • Keorin said:
    @Kogan

    DW can kill from around 50% health once they have a shadow (by pairing tooros/mutilate together), so it's not particularly safe to be in the room around that point. They can also hit for around 30-35% damage each swing once they have clumsiness and weariness stuck, so things go bad way faster then you'd expect. 

    Mechanically, mutilate's damage is around 40% with the artifact dirk, but it's affected by blunt resists, so probably less then that for you between fullplate/algiz. Tooros is a terminus ability that deals another 10% damage to everyone in the room (including the dw) and only requires word balance, so it can be paired freely with mutilate.

    I'd always keep at least one exit walled, with wunjo-nairat behind it, and if he's thrown up distort, tumble before he can get you low enough for the mutilate. If he goes for preempt over distortion, you can get away easily with gallop/flying. Stick clumsiness, use paralysis/asthma/slickness for hinder, and you'll probably be able to slow him down a decent bit. In terms of your own offense, they have a health heal that they can use after they're standing, so there's a good chance that if the dsb doesn't take them out, they'll be able to use it to survive your followup. 
    Thanks! That clears up quite a bit on the sudden bursts of damage. Hindering was going fine for me with level 2 scims and prioritizing it. My main concern about the one exit walled was if it was the only exit. Then in that burst damage moment if I had been dismounted earlier and ended up leaving my mount elsewhere I would be out of luck. I suppose I do have a 2nd mount I need to alias to drop/vault/mount jump. Gallop isn't an option if I keep mass up since I do not have a shackle, but I'm not sure if mass is as necessary against DW 1v1. 
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo Domingo
    @Kogan No real reason to mass against a Depthswalker.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • Depthswalker Preempt breaks if you move while the DW is hindered.. Couldn't you just run through a wunjo/nairat room to break it.
  • Remember that mount jump hits room hinder just like regular movement, so tumbling to guarantee the escape is often a better bet then gambling on not having a massive run of bad luck.
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna be
    How the fuck am I supposed to deal with someone who hits for 21% of my health on a 2.2s balance and can prep both legs in nine seconds, even when I'm full con spec? This is actually stupid. Para/clumsy on every hit plus parry and rebounding didn't even put that much of a dent in it. Why is this okay?
    Huh. Neat.
  • Ahmet said:
    How the fuck am I supposed to deal with someone who hits for 21% of my health on a 2.2s balance and can prep both legs in nine seconds, even when I'm full con spec? This is actually stupid. Para/clumsy on every hit plus parry and rebounding didn't even put that much of a dent in it. Why is this okay?
    Did they out P2W you? If the answer is yes, then please invest another 2000cr.
  • Ahmet said:
    How the fuck am I supposed to deal with someone who hits for 21% of my health on a 2.2s balance and can prep both legs in nine seconds, even when I'm full con spec? This is actually stupid. Para/clumsy on every hit plus parry and rebounding didn't even put that much of a dent in it. Why is this okay?
    Combat has been like this for years. I find it is more noticeable now because the counter play has been reduced due to everyone generally being more efficient in offense with the advancement of scripting and drastically improved curing systems that everyone has access to. rip
  • Gotta sell more globes, bro.

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  • Don't fight them is generally a good answer to situations like that.
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