PvE Analysis

Klendathu

Antonius said:

Klendathu said:

Lucianus said:

Didn't damage of Thoth's Fang got cut down to 20 damage? Wouldn't it be better to use something of comparable speed, but with more damage? Such as a soulpiercer?

Only a bard can wield a song-blessed rapier. If a bard dragonforms whilst wielding their rapier, they do not automatically unwield it, but cannot reviled it either. Pretty sure artefact rapiers come pre-song-blessed now too...

Not sure if rapiers come automatically songblessed now. If they do, scimitars have almost identical stats (I believe one more point of damage in exchange for one less point of speed), so that's also an option.

Would be interesting to see how that compares to thoth's fang.

No, you're right, I just checked in the artefact shop, rapiers are not pre-songblessed.

Dochitha

If I remembered correctly, thoth fang's stat is irrelevant. It has it's own damage and speed hardcoded. I tested thoth vs rapier vs scimitar before, thoth doesn't seem to scale with stat and is quicker than both rapier and scimitar. But I will have to confirm this later. Will do a test and see if what I remembered is correct.

Antonius

I can't think of any possible reason you wouldn't think that might be a bug.

Dochitha

Dragonmonk, I only tested scimitar since it has close stats with rapier I didn't test the rapier, is good enough to show Thoth isn't acting normal (it has something hardcoded).

Thoths (20/204/255): 3.24% p/s 

Scimitar (64/180/245): 2.58% p/s

Sena

Different weapons have had different damage formulae for a while now. Speed should still work the same across all weapons though, as should the strength bonus.

So a hypothetical rapier with 20 damage wouldn't do the same damage as a Thoth's Fang with 20 damage, and a longsword with 20 damage would also be different from both of those, etc.

Mindshell

I've only checked Scorpion stance for tekura currently since this is heavily time consuming.

MONK
Snapkick SNK (Scorpion)
14.00% dmg, 2.25b (2.50)
Moonkick MNK (Scorpion)
15.50% dmg, 2.25b (2.50)
Sidekick SDK (Scorpion)
15.50% dmg, 2.25b (2.50)
Whirlwind WWK (Scorpion)
15.50% dmg, 2.39b (2.65)
Axe AXK (Scorpion)
15.50% dmg, 3.56b (3.95)
Hammerfist HFP (Scorpion)
 7.75% dmg, 2.25b (2.50)
Spear SPP (Scorpion)
 7.75% dmg, 2.25b (2.50)
Hook HKP (Scorpion)
 5.75% dmg, 2.25b (2.50)
Uppercut UCP (Scorpion)
 7.75% dmg, 2.25b (2.50)
Optimum combo using MNK/SDK + HFP/SPP/UCP
31.00% dmg, 2.25b (2.50), 13.78% p/s

Thoth's fang (monk)
28.50% dmg, 1.71b (1.90), 16.67% p/s

Thrust (Tykonos)
15.00% dmg, 2.70b (3.00)
Risingkick (Tykonos)
11.50% dmg, 2.07b (2.30)
Optimum combo using Thrust + Risingkick
41.50% dmg, 2.70b (3.00), 15.37% p/s

Dart (Willow)
10.50% dmg, 1.67b (1.85)
Hiru (Willow)
11.50% dmg, 1.85b (2.05)
Hiraku (Willow)
11.50% dmg, 1.85b (2.05)
Flashheel (Willow)
11.50% dmg, 1.85b (2.05)
Optimum combo using Hiru/Hiraku + Flashheel
34.50% dmg, 1.85b (2.05), 18.65% p/s

Ruku (Rain)
11.50% dmg, 2.07b (2.30)
Kuro (Rain)
11.50% dmg, 2.07b (2.30)
Hiru (Rain)
11.50% dmg, 2.07b (2.30)
Frontkick (Rain)
11.50% dmg, 2.07b (2.30)
Optimum combo using Ruku/Kuro/Hiru + Frontkick
34.50% dmg, 2.07b (2.30), 16.67% p/s

Livestrike (Oak)
11.50% dmg, 2.07b (2.30)
Nervestrike (Oak)
11.50% dmg, 2.07b (2.30)
Ruku (Oak)
11.50% dmg, 2.07b (2.30)
Kuro (Oak)
11.50% dmg, 2.07b (2.30)
Risingkick (Oak)
11.50% dmg, 2.07b (2.30)
Optimum combo using Livestrike/Nervestrike/Ruku/Kuro + Risingkick
34.50% dmg, 2.07b (2.30), 16.67% p/s

Needle (Gaital)
15.50% dmg, 2.75b (3.05)
Ruku (Gaital)
11.50% dmg, 2.07b (2.30)
Kuro (Gaital)
11.50% dmg, 2.07b (2.30)
Spinkick (Gaital)
20.00% dmg, 3.65b (4.05)
Flashheel (Gaital)
11.50% dmg, 2.07b (2.30)
Optimum combo using Ruku/Kuro + Flashheel
34.50% dmg, 2.07b (2.30), 16.67% p/s

Ruku (Maelstrom)
11.50% dmg, 2.07b (2.30)
Livestrike (Maelstrom)
11.50% dmg, 2.07b (2.30)
Jinzuku (Maelstrom)
11.50% dmg, 2.07b (2.30)
Risingkick (Maelstrom)
11.50% dmg, 2.07b (2.30)
Optimum combo using Ruku/Livestrike/Jinzuku + Risingkick
34.50% dmg, 2.07b (2.30), 16.67% p/s

Optimum combo transition path 4 Willow, 2 Rain, 2 Oak
276.00% dmg, 15.68b (17.40), 17.60% p/s

Mindshell

Also another general comment on my testing so far, the depthswalker data was performed using full the augment path in terminus. I haven't tested without yet to compare the variance.

Dalinor

I've loaded a change which should normalize the dragon hunting damage with weapons like Fang, regardless of the profession held before switching to dragonform. 

Mindshell

Dalinor said:

I've loaded a change which should normalize the dragon hunting damage with weapons like Fang, regardless of the profession held before switching to dragonform. 

You're trying to keep me busy, I'll find something else to break for you.

--
For everyone else, how dragon hunting looks subsequent to these changes:

DRAGON
Gut
46.00% dmg, 3.00b (3.00), 15.33% p/s
Incantation
53.00% dmg, 3.27e (3.85), 16.21% p/s
Blast
28.00% dmg, 3.40e (4.00),  8.24% p/s
Thoth's fang
29.50% dmg, 1.90b (1.90), 15.53% p/s

Ankhareoutef

I'm interested to see how well gut and incantation scale with strength and intelligence if you're willing to test!

Aegoth

incant 4 lyf

Micaelis

Ankhareoutef said:

I'm interested to see how well gut and incantation scale with strength and intelligence if you're willing to test!

Incantation scales better with int than gut does with strength, as far as I can tell. At the low end (18/19) gut comes out on top, at the high end (Mindshell's 23) incant comes out on top.

Micaelis

This one's for you @Sena, like, specifically.

I'm debating the validity of these two situations, either objectively or subjectively or whatever, for serpent:

Human: 14 dex/11 con. + sip gain, + crit hits 
Rajamala: 15 dex/11 con.

I have a level 2 lash, +1 dex artie, etc. 

I'm specifically wondering if the increased DPS from a +1 dex with level 2 lash 'outweighs' the +crit/+sip bonus of human? I had heard that the +crit was a flat 1% increase on top, that doesn't scale with level. I have no idea about the +sip bonus. 

Any help would be appreciated!

Ryzeth

The "sip bonus" is only a chance to have a slightly higher sip and, from memory, it wasn't really noticeable.

I'd say Rajamala, personally. Especially if you fight much, the dodge bonus stacks with avoidance/weaving, and is a great way to piss off weaponry users.

Cooper

The sip bonus is effectively a 1% bonus. It is a 10% chance to have a 10% higher sip.

Ahmet

The human crit chance is either about 2% or 4% dps increase for you (I forget if it's half a percent or one percent). That one point of dex will be just under 3% increase. I'd stick with the dex either way for bonus dodge + faster dstab + faster phase + other benefits.

Sena

I'd definitely take +1 dex over the human crit bonus for serpent.

Micaelis

Thanks for the input everyone!

Aesgar

Reyson said:

The stat for SnB bashing is fucking depressing

Not sure how I made it from 83 - 99 post SnB nerf :O

Jonathin

Aesgar said:

Reyson said:

The stat for SnB bashing is fucking depressing

Not sure how I made it from 83 - 99 post SnB nerf :O

I did it, too.

Solnir

Anyone have numbers on how int changes shaman dps? I was under the impression until recently that int didn't change damage at all, but learned otherwise.

Sayenna

Solnir said:

Anyone have numbers on how int changes shaman dps? I was under the impression until recently that int didn't change damage at all, but learned otherwise.

Int/collar doesn't change Shaman's PvP damage. Affects PvE the same as any other magic-based class.

Solnir

Well, we're in the PvE Analysis thread.
But, to clarify, how does int change bashing for shaman. I don't know the numbers on any "other magic-based class".
I assume it's similar to str in that it starts diminishing returns at 12, but other than that I'm at a loss.

Sena

Str/int affect nearly every class's bashing in nearly the same way, they mostly all use a standard formula. Notable exceptions are serpents (who get a speed boost from dex instead of a damage boost) and dragons (whose diminishing returns start from a base of 18 instead of 12). Other than that, some classes get a slightly higher or lower benefit (like a 21% boost versus 24%) from their offensive stat, but the effect and scaling is pretty much the same.

As for the specific details of that formula (like how much of a bonus you can expect with X points in a stat), I don't have any up to date information, except maybe for dragons.

Sobriquet

That's interesting. I was told by someone rather knowledgeable that getting strength gauntlets wouldn't increase my hunting damage. 

Sena

As a runewarden? I'm 99% sure that strength benefits every knight spec. Possibly far less effective than other options, like artefact weapons, but still an increase.

Edit: There have been bugs in the past that made bashing attacks ignore stat bonuses, though.

Krypton

Serpent weapon damage doesn't scale with Strength whatsoever?

Sena

Krypton said:

Serpent weapon damage doesn't scale with Strength whatsoever?

Garrote doesn't and never has (at least for as long as I've played a serpent; I think 2006). If you count jabbing with a Thoth's Fang as "serpent weapon damage", strength does matter for that.

Even in PvP, I think the only thing affected by strength is backstab.

Sayenna

Serpent damage scales with dexterity, aside from backstab which scales with strength.

Dunno what (if anything) Camus scales with.

Sena

Dexterity does not affect serpent damage, only speed. And for garrote, it only affects speed against denizens, not adventurers.

I think camus and sumac scale with venom skill now, but I'm not 100% sure on that. Other than that and Silver Fangs (and universal bonuses like Ethian empowerment), they don't scale with anything.