Resolutions

Jinsun

The one about the kill shot being the only one to get the point is not true. I've been tracking it for two days now. It's never been true. Also, if you're not making good gold seamonster hunting it's because you don't know how to do it right. If Anaria is your example for anything, your parents don't love you.

Keorin

Am I missing something, or aren't there only, like, three resolutions that you can't re-complete? And in each case, it seems like having them done makes several other resolutions far more doable, so there's still an advantage there.

Epifania

Seems like we just made it through almost 2 rl months of defending and rebuilding our shrines. Just saying 50 shrines is a bit too much of destructive goal for the other side especially when you have people like Jhui hell bent on completing it in like 1 realm month. Twenty five shrine dustings would be more manageable spread out, though people are still going to mostly pick on the smallest orders first which sucks but oh well that's our place in the world. 

Naoma

Epifania said:

Seems like we just made it through almost 2 rl months of defending and rebuilding our shrines. Just saying 50 shrines is a bit too much of destructive goal for the other side especially when you have people like Jhui hell bent on completing it in like 1 realm month. Twenty five shrine dustings would be more manageable spread out, though people are still going to mostly pick on the smallest orders first which sucks but oh well that's our place in the world. 

They aren't just hitting small orders first. While yes it is shitty the non-comm orders are getting hit @Senoske and I both called that it would happen. Last night I can recall seeing deathsights for Lord Prospero's order, Lady Artemis' order, and Lord Sartan's if I remember correctly or that could have been a raid. I am not Mhaldorian so really I have no clue. Maybe @Cooper or @Aegoth can confirm the assumption. Regardless, it happens, it would likely be a good time to try to pick up a basic defense course and try using it? I know you are all neutral and the like but still no reason to not be able to defend yourself if you have the resources available. 

Edit: this sounds far snippier than it really is, but it's the only way to word it. No crassness meant, but just trying to offer solutions

Ahmet

Defending isnt really viable when youve got four people, they have six, and among those six are Jhui and Dunn. Just saying.

Naoma

@Ahmet I for one can tell you a bunch of Eleusian's jumped to help you lot. @Gavriil, @Valaria, myself And I am sure I have missed some, however @Senoske had a list. Then to continue this where you say four, you also had @Hosko @Draqoom @Senoske @Nicca @Frederich @Epifania plus yourself. Just those listed with some form of combat even if you just touch a web tattoo that is TEN people that could have done more. Basic combat knowledge will and does help. I am not good at it by any stretch but having something to go off of will help instead of standing there twiddling thumbs.

Jhui

You non coms know it's a lot easier to raise than defile right? I'm sure someone if your order wants to feel useful bashing up corpses. Let em do it and tell them thanks and you'll have a happy order

Ahmet

When I got there, I guess people had given up, cause all I saw were Hosko, Draqoom and Sturm for the entirety of the conflict. 

ETA: Not to mention that if it were just Jhui and Dunn versus everyone Naoma listed with a competent group leader, I'd put my money on those two.

Kiskan

Unless she really wants to defend (against the top tier no less) and isn't overly attached to the shrines in the first place, starting to defend NOW is honestly a terrible idea that will only compound frustration.

Anyway, as with so many things, the trick is whether, and to what point, you believe can afford to NOT care (hint, it's easier to not care if you win a lot).

I was in a small Order (Sect in my game) for awhile, because multiple Orders within the same faction opened up more offensive options there, but eventually it just made more sense to be in the giant Order.  Anyway, I intentionally kept a very small footprint in terms of shrines, exactly because I didn't want to provide a juicy target that could be very disheartening for the other people in that Order if we took big losses (our shrines helped with bashing, a lot).  So if they really wanted some shrines in a particular area, we did it, with the understanding that if we could defend them we would, but that we really could easily lose these things.  That said, I was backed up by a very large, powerful Order.  Not sure if that is a possibility here, but I'd guess it might have some of the same issues.  Namely that if your own guys aren't around to hear the shrines being attacked, they're probably toast.

EDIT:  I mean, this really is the truth of what shrines are.  Shrines are literally a thing that exists so that they can be attacked, if you think about it.  It is inherently a conflict mechanism, so the instant you start getting attached to it because it also provides other benefits, is the instant you have fallen into a carefully laid trap.  In my game, interestingly, that trap was utterly set to entice non-coms.  It was easy for me to not care about shrines, per se, because I don't bash.  Not sure of all the dynamics here.  

Antonius

Prior to the most recent changes, there was one mechanical reason to have shrines: worldburn. There are now two: worldburn and gaining Order essence from sovereignty. Any attachment to shrines is either roleplay or senseless emotional attachment to the game itself (i.e. the kind of player who gets affected by absolutely everything that happens in game, good or bad), because there's not really been any mechanical things to become attached to in the past.

Jinsun

Guys, seeing some "But that's not how I play" comments. When someone tells you how you can avoid dying endlessly and still contribute, if your response is "but I want to defend," then you need to be prepared to lose, plain and simple. Also, there's a resolution for adventurer deaths. @Jhui and co. is just trying to help you achieve your goals.

Xaden

Did we ever get any clarification on whether or not that needed to be the same adventurer?

Kiskan

Jinsun said:

Guys, seeing some "But that's not how I play" comments. When someone tells you how you can avoid dying endlessly and still contribute, if your response is "but I want to defend," then you need to be prepared to lose, plain and simple. Also, there's a resolution for adventurer deaths. @Jhui and co. is just trying to help you achieve your goals.

With what Antonius said, I'd be even more inclined to go "tiny shrine footprint" in Epifania's shoes.  If you're a tiny, apparently neutral Order, you avoid a lot of frustration just by not providing anything to attack.  Shrines are for fighting over, basically.  I definitely would not continue to put shrines up just to be dusted, though (especially right now).  Screw that.  At the very least, wait until after the Resolution thing ends.

Aereidhna

I logged in for a couple hours last night because it was the last night of my work vacation and I couldn't stay for longer. That was the shittiest possible end to a good weekend I could have asked for. I spent the entire time on this bullshit. I argued 'tiny shrine footprint for an IC year or two til the resolutions die down,' but was shot down and I get the reasoning behind it, it just sucks as a non-com. Combat sucks 98% of the fun out of the game for me, but I'm about to work more on defense because Order culture in just about every Order bar perhaps really small ones with inactive Divine says that you raise shrines and you defend them. It might be senseless attachment but that's the predominant view and way that people roleplay within Orders. We'll see how well that goes (the learning defense) and what it does to my desire to log in. I am grateful at least that they're not repeatable resolutions (I hope). 

I wrote a bit of a ramble on Orders and non-coms and IC/OOC feels but I don't think anyone actually gives a shit so cut that out.

Senoske

Aereidhna said:

I logged in for a couple hours last night because it was the last night of my work vacation and I couldn't stay for longer. That was the shittiest possible end to a good weekend I could have asked for. I spent the entire time on this bullshit. I argued 'tiny shrine footprint for a year or two til the resolutions die down,' but was shot down and I get the reasoning behind it, it just sucks as a non-com. Combat sucks 98% of the fun out of the game for me, but I'm about to work more on defense because Order culture in just about every Order bar perhaps really small ones with inactive Divine says that you raise shrines and you defend them. It might be senseless attachment but that's the predominant view and way that people roleplay within Orders. We'll see how well that goes (the learning defense) and what it does to my desire to log in. I am grateful at least that they're not repeatable resolutions (I hope). 

I wrote a bit of a ramble on Orders and non-coms and IC/OOC feels but I don't think anyone actually gives a shit so cut that out.

See, I enjoy combat, I enjoy learning and I'm slowly making my offense with my few hours that I'm actually home and able to work on it. But going against Jhui and co. is like throwing yourself headfirst into a brick wall. Multiple times. Will I do it? Yep, still will. Will I learn from it? No, not really, there's nothing to learn from being damagekilled or locked in 2 seconds flat.

My biggest issue is that there is -zero- rp behind what happened to P's order. And there's no reinforcing from the admins that shit actually has to be done from an RP standpoint. But alas, it's Ashtan, they'll get away with it even if they grief and are issued for it.

Shirszae

@Aereidhna  Different Patrons ascribe different importance to their shrines and their defence. You should talk with Yours about it. 

Kiskan

Issues aren't intended to prevent griefing.  I realize how crazy that sounds, but the PK-ers definitely know.  It's been touched on a few times lately, but the rules/issue system isn't up to that job.  It's basically mechanics that can prevent griefing, or, often, gives you tools to limit it.  But if people keep rigidly buying into the griefing, well past the point where they're downright miserable from the look of it, yeah, you're pretty screwed and it's going to suck.  It's kind of hard to watch.

Jinsun

@Senoske I feel like I'm missing something, do you mean there's no RP behind Babelites attacking Prospero's shrines?

Also guys, let's keep in mind all this "Woe is me, the smallest order." talk is a bit hypocritical. Babel's order has literally two members right now and no hope to add more." If you have an active god and can get more members, that's probably what you should be doing instead of getting shit stomped by the tiniest order in the game that literally can't recruit real members. Think I'll join the fun tonight.

Aereidhna

I am glad that it provides opportunities for people that enjoy combat but I agree that I doubt I'd learn much going up against Jhui and co. either. My main goal is just to be a fraction less useless, and if I learn other things in the process that's good. I also agree that it'd be nice if people had RP justification for attacking because maybe that'd make roleplaying the need to defend slightly more enjoyable. At this point I feel like I'm just here to be Jhui's griefing game content. It annoys me that Babel and Sartan can get away with the 'attack other Orders because it sows Chaos/Strengthens other people' justification for literally anything ever, which is pretty thin to me. The difference is Mhaldorians don't pull that shit as often or at all anymore..

I'm not going to pull the smallest Order card because we're probably one of the bigger and more active Orders right now, but we're still mostly non-coms (with maybe like 2-4 exceptions) and a neutral Divine who doesn't have beef with anyone.

Senoske

Jinsun said:

@Senoske I feel like I'm missing something, do you mean there's no RP behind Babelites attacking Prospero's shrines?

Also guys, let's keep in mind all this "Woe is me, the smallest order." talk is a bit hypocritical. Babel's order has literally two members right now and no hope to add more." If you have an active god and can get more members, that's probably what you should be doing instead of getting shit stomped by the tiniest order in the game that literally can't recruit real members. Think I'll join the fun tonight.

Not much TO join at this point. And last night when you "joined the fun" first thing you did was get sucked into a totem lol.

Anyway, back to completely ignoring your existence. BAH FELICIA.

Jinsun

Oh yeah, and still got away. By the time I joined it was just random people fighting Eleusis. Was not really even worth doing, so I left.

Senoske

Jinsun said:

Oh yeah, and still got away. By the time I joined it was just random people fighting Eleusis. Was not really even worth doing, so I left.

Higher priority targets.

Aereidhna

The irony is that I really don't have any mechanical attachment to shrines, I pretty much only offer at the Master Shrine and in Cyrene. This has forced me to think more about Order culture and shrines in a good way.

I got spoiled by Lady Val's pre-Order where we had a large shrine network and only rarely had a few dusted by Mhaldor and Ashtan over the 30-40 IC years I was in it. I came to expect that for following a neutral Divine, but the Tsol'teth, the shrine changes, and resolutions will probably make that a thing of the past.

I'm really grateful to the Eleusians and Cyrenians who jumped in headfirst to help out.

Sarathai

Jinsun said:

Also guys, let's keep in mind all this "Woe is me, the smallest order." talk is a bit hypocritical. Babel's order has literally two members right now and no hope to add more."

The size of an order doesn't really mean much at present, since even smaller orders can try to get some hangers-on to join them. You only need an order member for the initial desecrate, as far as I'm aware. Anybody can let themselves be cleaved/beheaded to provide a corpse that finishes the job, or fight whoever comes to defend the shrine. (Daeir kinda had a decent point on this subject.)

Admittedly a larger order will sometimes help create more personal investment, if that's what you meant?

Jhui

Not sure why defiling is being used synonymously with the word griefing.  If you feel griefed that's on you. My intent is purely in my own interest towards resolutions. All those mhun  corpses need to go somewhere. Prosperos order has probably had the least shrines dropped so far and I really only dropped those because my homies were all offline or afk and I couldn't take on the other orders by myself. When they unafked we went after the other orders.

not sure why you're all taking this so personally 

Ahmet

Rpwise, yeah, I guess Ashtan might target Prospero's order (which seems like a stretch to begin with), but yall have more active enemies that should be a much higher priority (particularly the Eleusian and Targossan ones).

As far as OOC goes, the Ashtani aren't attacking Prospero's shrines because they enjoy fighting, they're attacking Prospero's shrines because they enjoy roflstomping people who are worse than they are, especially non-coms. Outside of that, it's 100% driven by resolutions. There are plenty of other shrines for them to down but the Prosperian shrines were an easy target for some quick progress on the resolution. Mechanically speaking, it's easier to raise than it is to defile. In practice, when the defilers spend a few minutes fighting and have several adventurer corpses, that has to be offset by a much longer time spent hunting for those non-coms, which adds to the burden of being attacked for little to no reason by people they can't possibly hope to defend against, especially if you raise shrines in place of theirs so they have to defile yours or give up on their own, which leads to more conflict etc etc etc.

Tl;dr: Yeah, I guess you could justify it, but it's a shitty thing to do from both an RP and an OOC perspective.

Atalkez

It's not shitty to use a mechanic as it was designed to be used. Defiling has been this way for a really long time. Some people didn't see how hard you can get hit by virtue of not being a priority target. Now there's a problem because your shrines are getting hit?

Move along.

Telinus

I feel like we need Bonko to return so people remember what the term "grief" means.

Aereidhna

Okay, sorry, I feel like I'm Jhui's PK game content because he's bored and wants to complete a resolution and his buddies are AFK. Semantics.

Senoske

Atalkez said:

It's not shitty to use a mechanic as it was designed to be used. Defiling has been this way for a really long time. Some people didn't see how hard you can get hit by virtue of not being a priority target. Now there's a problem because your shrines are getting hit?

Move along.

More pointing out the bullshit that the fact is the ONLY reason Jhui and co are doing it is because resolutions. Actual RP reason? There is none. Shit, if there is, it's a RIDICULOUS stretch.

Don't care about dying anymore, exp is easy to gain and really hard to lose substantial amounts personally.

Don't care about shrines themselves being dusted. Just reraise.

Annoyed at reasoning behind it. Simple enough?