Poll: Which modern Achaean House is the best and why?

Trey

Nazihk said:

Keorin said:

I maintain that the Shield -could- be a great house, if some things were different. We have a good advancement system, and some of the most interesting/best written ceremonies that I've seen post-reneissance. But Cyrene as a whole can be very stifling to combatants (let's remember that "you can't bring conflict to Cyrene" means that you can't defend other cities, and that you have to accept all comers as dauntless for fear that Ashtan might come again), we've lost most of our best fighters and teachers to boredom/dormancy/political disagreement (Aerek/Kenway/Dochitha/Wessux), and while I like our leaders as people, the most I've seen them do to address our dwindling numbers is to make the novice requirements easier, which has unsurprisingly done little to motivate the people who aren't advancing anyways. I think it's going to take sustained effort by people to start building this house up, and I don't see it happening currently, particularly since our leaders, like all Cyrenian ones, it seems, have little interest in stepping down no matter how long they've been in power or how little time or ideas they have.

Bringing up how nice your ceremonies are when you are talking about a failing combat house has to be the most Cyrenian thing I have ever seen on these forums. 

The Cyrene combat house is floundering because it is a combat house in Cyrene. That's really all there is to it.

You are not going to have a healthy combat house in a city that actively avoids all conflict because a city that actively avoids conflict won't maintain a stable population of fighters. That is the bottom line. The good fighters, generally speaking, like to fight. As a result they, generally speaking, don't live in cities that try to avoid fighting. There is no way to fix the house unless you can address this discrepancy.

At one point they HAD a good solid core of fighters. @Dochitha and @Aerek aren't slouches by any stretch of the imagination, and there's a hilarious story that gets brought up every time I'm hanging out with @Wessux about him standing in the Maldaathi HL office fuming because he was getting chastised by a room full of people he could have probably taken at the same time. I can't speak to Kenway's prowess, but I've heard good things. But yeah, none of what you just said is untrue to any large extent.

Armali

Two of them are Hashani now!

Nazihk

Trey said:
At one point they HAD a good solid core of fighters. @Dochitha and @Aerek aren't slouches by any stretch of the imagination, and there's a hilarious story that gets brought up every time I'm hanging out with @Wessux about him standing in the Maldaathi HL office fuming because he was getting chastised by a room full of people he could have probably taken at the same time. I can't speak to Kenway's prowess, but I've heard good things. But yeah, none of what you just said is untrue to any large extent.

Aerek is cityless now, Wessux and Kenway are both Hashani now, and Dochitha is unranked. 

I didn't say Cyrene never had talented people or never gets talented people, just that they never stay there.

Keorin

Nazihk said:

Keorin said:

I maintain that the Shield -could- be a great house, if some things were different. We have a good advancement system, and some of the most interesting/best written ceremonies that I've seen post-reneissance. But Cyrene as a whole can be very stifling to combatants (let's remember that "you can't bring conflict to Cyrene" means that you can't defend other cities, and that you have to accept all comers as dauntless for fear that Ashtan might come again), we've lost most of our best fighters and teachers to boredom/dormancy/political disagreement (Aerek/Kenway/Dochitha/Wessux), and while I like our leaders as people, the most I've seen them do to address our dwindling numbers is to make the novice requirements easier, which has unsurprisingly done little to motivate the people who aren't advancing anyways. I think it's going to take sustained effort by people to start building this house up, and I don't see it happening currently, particularly since our leaders, like all Cyrenian ones, it seems, have little interest in stepping down no matter how long they've been in power or how little time or ideas they have.

Bringing up how nice your ceremonies are when you are talking about a failing combat house has to be the most Cyrenian thing I have ever seen on these forums. 

The Cyrene combat house is floundering because it is a combat house in Cyrene. That's really all there is to it.

You are not going to have a healthy combat house in a city that actively avoids all conflict because a city that actively avoids conflict won't maintain a stable population of fighters. That is the bottom line. The good fighters, generally speaking, like to fight. As a result they, generally speaking, don't live in cities that try to avoid fighting. There is no way to fix the house unless you can address this discrepancy.

I bring up ceremonies, because in -any- house, things that give meaning and identity are essential. In a combat house, those ceremonies help to define why one fights, and give identity to your house and your character. While I'm sure that there are people out there who only care about fighting itself, I, for one, like some roleplay in my roleplaying game, and so I very much like those ceremonies.

I think you're partially right about the issues the house faces. At the moment, you can't join the Shield and expect to seriously engage in group combat. If Cyrene someday got less completely terrified of being raided, or people in other cities would be willing to seek revenge on the people who fight rather then a city as a whole, then maybe we could be allowed to help defend other cities but for now it's just not a possibility.

That said, there's no reason that it can't be a good city for people who prefer to focus on 1v1. There have been times in the house's history where we've had a solid core of fighters and good activity from them. Our biggest problems are far more mundane really. Stagnant leadership, no house-wide activity, and nothing to actually encourage people to want to stay in the house are all issues that many houses have faced before, and which have made many other houses stagnant before this one.

Aerek

To be honest, I haven't actually seen anyone take "revenge" on Cyrene for the actions of one of its citizen fighters since Cyrene granted amnesty to all its enemies. Even when Dochitha was feeling frisky and unapologetically ganking anyone he could find in Annwyn or relentlessly hunting down infamous, I can't recall anyone actually raiding or threatening other Cyrenians over it. Perhaps if a Cyrenian was to actually defend another city during a raid, but for the most part I think that argument is just a talking point raised by the more militant pacifists to shut down their opponents. It's basically the Cyrenian version of the "Support our troops!" slogan used to shut down any criticism of US foreign policy.

Cyrene has historically been a convenient haven for folks who enjoyed casual combat, but didn't want to commit to the "obligation" of the PK-oriented cities. I don't think a combat house there is in any way impossible or antithetical, though the Shield certainly has suffered under the city's current atmosphere. In my experience, it's the "no skill use" policy that discourages fighters in Cyrene more than anything. It's just tiresome to have people whining at you constantly, or the looming threat of actual punishment, simply because you wanted to improve yourself without hogging the arena for the next hour.

Tahquil

In before Cyrenians of high standing step in to slag off Aerek and mark him as a trouble maker and just un-Cyrenian.

Nazihk

Keorin said:

I bring up ceremonies, because in -any- house, things that give meaning and identity are essential. In a combat house, those ceremonies help to define why one fights, and give identity to your house and your character. While I'm sure that there are people out there who only care about fighting itself, I, for one, like some roleplay in my roleplaying game, and so I very much like those ceremonies. 

Roleplay in your roleplaying game is good, but so is combat in your combat house. And honestly, if you can't get combat in your combat house then it has a very shaky roleplay foundation as well; the combat guild that never fights is hard to take seriously, even when you're a member of it. Maybe even especially when you are a member of it.

Tahquil

You mean, invaded by the Tsol'teth?

Keorin

I asked @Dunn to invade us as a Christmas present. No luck so far.

Aerek said:

To be honest, I haven't actually seen anyone take "revenge" on Cyrene for the actions of one of its citizen fighters since Cyrene granted amnesty to all its enemies. Even when Dochitha was feeling frisky and unapologetically ganking anyone he could find in Annwyn or relentlessly hunting down infamous, I can't recall anyone actually raiding or threatening other Cyrenians over it. Perhaps if a Cyrenian was to actually defend another city during a raid, but for the most part I think that argument is just a talking point raised by the more militant pacifists to shut down their opponents. It's basically the Cyrenian version of the "Support our troops!" slogan used to shut down any criticism of US foreign policy.

The case that got our Dauntless policy in place was a few Ashtani taking issue with one of our more casual Dauntless members not wanting to come out to fight a few days after it came out. It lead to some skirmishing in the streets/on the Muurn.

Of course, Ashtan's government apologized for the incident, because of course they did.

Dunn

Sorry! Got really holiday busy with work and family. We will come raid you some time this week if things calm down. 

Ahmet

@Keorin

Qirua

Jonathin said:

I don't like the word 'casual' but in the context, it fits well enough. I want the game to stay a game. My worst experiences with it have been when the game has become work and I felt pressured to get something done in a hurry because higher-ups want more cannon fodder.

There is no benefit to burning people out before they even reach HR5. 'If they don't like it, they can quit' is not a valid justification because that person sitting at HR1 for a RL year while they do random stuff is not a detriment to the House in any way. Even when icons were a thing and that person would be draining the icon without contributing, you could just restrict the benefit and problem solved.

This. When you log in with an hour or two as a new character, you have hunting, supplies, learning, etc to do and then House stuff on top of that. The Academy is pretty cool in letting you go at your own pace and matching you with what -you- find interesting, as you were referencing in another post. 

Farrah

Keorin said:

Nazihk said:

Keorin said:

I maintain that the Shield -could- be a great house, if some things were different. We have a good advancement system, and some of the most interesting/best written ceremonies that I've seen post-reneissance. But Cyrene as a whole can be very stifling to combatants (let's remember that "you can't bring conflict to Cyrene" means that you can't defend other cities, and that you have to accept all comers as dauntless for fear that Ashtan might come again), we've lost most of our best fighters and teachers to boredom/dormancy/political disagreement (Aerek/Kenway/Dochitha/Wessux), and while I like our leaders as people, the most I've seen them do to address our dwindling numbers is to make the novice requirements easier, which has unsurprisingly done little to motivate the people who aren't advancing anyways. I think it's going to take sustained effort by people to start building this house up, and I don't see it happening currently, particularly since our leaders, like all Cyrenian ones, it seems, have little interest in stepping down no matter how long they've been in power or how little time or ideas they have.

Bringing up how nice your ceremonies are when you are talking about a failing combat house has to be the most Cyrenian thing I have ever seen on these forums. 

The Cyrene combat house is floundering because it is a combat house in Cyrene. That's really all there is to it.

You are not going to have a healthy combat house in a city that actively avoids all conflict because a city that actively avoids conflict won't maintain a stable population of fighters. That is the bottom line. The good fighters, generally speaking, like to fight. As a result they, generally speaking, don't live in cities that try to avoid fighting. There is no way to fix the house unless you can address this discrepancy.

I bring up ceremonies, because in -any- house, things that give meaning and identity are essential. In a combat house, those ceremonies help to define why one fights, and give identity to your house and your character. While I'm sure that there are people out there who only care about fighting itself, I, for one, like some roleplay in my roleplaying game, and so I very much like those ceremonies.

I think you're partially right about the issues the house faces. At the moment, you can't join the Shield and expect to seriously engage in group combat. If Cyrene someday got less completely terrified of being raided, or people in other cities would be willing to seek revenge on the people who fight rather then a city as a whole, then maybe we could be allowed to help defend other cities but for now it's just not a possibility.

That said, there's no reason that it can't be a good city for people who prefer to focus on 1v1. There have been times in the house's history where we've had a solid core of fighters and good activity from them. Our biggest problems are far more mundane really. Stagnant leadership, no house-wide activity, and nothing to actually encourage people to want to stay in the house are all issues that many houses have faced before, and which have made many other houses stagnant before this one.

Honestly, I'm not sure people will ever be completely satisfied with new Houses simply because they are not and cannot be what old Houses were. Old Houses had an identity because they had something to define them - class.

New Houses are either basically just the city itself (see Insidium/Legates with a multitude of paths to accommodate everyone) with no real individualized identity, or divided into areas of interest which will always be subject to your type of comment of "Well, anyone in any House can do combat."

It'd always be great to have more ceremonies, etc. But they require people to write them, and those are in short supply in a House that actually does focus on combat and does it well, in part due to advancement structure. If you advance people who just write ceremonies and don't fight, it decreases your legitimacy as a combat House because the highest ranks should really be the advanced warriors and military leaders. But if you don't advance people who write ceremonies and whatnot, nobody has incentive to spend the time.

We've slowly added things in the Dawnblade, like our blade ritual, but there are so many tasks to juggle that I am not surprised you have a House like the Shield that has neat ceremonies but little combat and a House like the Dawnblade that has a lot of combat and resources for combat but not as much ceremony. I know I've spent my time as HL entirely focused on writing help scrolls to help people obtain the necessary knowledge to do well at combat, working with people individually to teach them those things, fixing the advancement structure, and leading group combat things. I see all of these as necessities because I don't want my combat House to suck at combat, but it doesn't cover all angles.

Some day, when someone gets the energy to do more, it'll be expanded more, I'm sure.

Aereidhna

I guess party duels at NoNT/clouds are too much work. Or literally any other form of combat than being raided.

Shirszae

Aereidhna said:

I guess party duels at NoNT/clouds are too much work. Or literally any other form of combat than being raided.

Or maybe understanding they are pretty different things is too much work too

Aereidhna

They are pretty different things, but if you want to be in a city that is regularly raided and has city vs city conflict, there are five of those. If you want to be in a city that isn't but still has a lot of other options open (Dauntless, Mark, treacherous planes, dueling or practicing skills anywhere outside the city, etc. etc. ad nauseam), there are plenty of options for conflict that people willfully choose to ignore. Ironically combatants in other cities that DO have city vs city conflict often participate in these other forms of conflict, too.

I have zero patience for people who sit at CC complaining that there's nothing fun to do and no one will RP with them...the same principle applies. Make your own fun.

Verrucht

Aerek said:

 In my experience, it's the "no skill use" policy that discourages fighters in Cyrene more than anything. It's just tiresome to have people whining at you constantly, or the looming threat of actual punishment, simply because you wanted to improve yourself without hogging the arena for the next hour.

Well, it's just in no public areas. If you do it in the Shield House or the public part of the hub, or even an out of the way part of the city that people won't see it'd be fine. Also, the purpose was to allow the Shield to hog the arena, that's why it was free. But, I mean, whatever. Some people don't want to be happy.

Frederich

There's a sense of thrill and danger in getting raided.

The city is under attack, you can utilize the home-field advantage as much as you want.  Drag them into totems, call guards.  Do all sorts of available, neat, options.

A party duel at NONT requires people to actually want to play (1 requirement of a raid)
Requires those people to not get lolganked by people who want em dead (not a requirement.. usually)
No totems/home-field advantage (1 thing a raid provides)

Verrucht

Frederich said:

There's a sense of thrill and danger in getting raided.

The city is under attack, you can utilize the home-field advantage as much as you want.  Drag them into totems, call guards.  Do all sorts of available, neat, options.

A party duel at NONT requires people to actually want to play (1 requirement of a raid)
Requires those people to not get lolganked by people who want em dead (not a requirement.. usually)
No totems/home-field advantage (1 thing a raid provides)

A city raid impacts a lot of people who don't want to be raided or attacked, which is partly why Cyrene went in the direction it did. The other stuff impacts people who actually want to fight. It's real rough that it's not exactly how they want things. If only there was another city they could live in that might get them what they want.

Aereidhna

Shockingly, I've defended in several raids before and am aware of the differences. 

Jonathin

90% of Hashan remains unaffected by raids aside from a room getting blown up and usually, people can just walk the other way around the parade of founders.

It's not a very good argument to say that it involves more than just the people that want to play because unless it's in your laws that people have to defend, they can just go about their daily business. 80% of of the active population of Hashan doesn't even respond when there is a raid and they remain blissfully in their own little worlds while the other 20% are happy to fight.

Verrucht

Jonathin said:

90% of Hashan remains unaffected by raids aside from a room getting blown up and usually, people can just walk the other way around the parade of founders.

It's not a very good argument to say that it involves more than just the people that want to play because unless it's in your laws that people have to defend, they can just go about their daily business. 80% of of the active population of Hashan doesn't even respond when there is a raid and they remain blissfully in their own little worlds while the other 20% are happy to fight.

It's actually more of a cultural thing, people feel obligated to defend even if they don't want to. Not everyone, mind you, but quite a few people. Definitely more people than those who are asking Cyrene to be raided or want Cyrene to be raided.

Also just, I think it's a very good argument that the minority should not seek to negatively impact the majority in an organisation. I understand that you may not feel that way, and that's nice and all, but I feel like that's part of being a conscientious player. 

Aereidhna

Well, and Hashan isn't exactly neutral in the same sense that Cyrene is. To me, more than who raiding impacts, it's that city vs. city conflict just isn't a part of Cyrene's culture anymore. 

Frederich

Verrucht said:

Frederich said:

There's a sense of thrill and danger in getting raided.

The city is under attack, you can utilize the home-field advantage as much as you want.  Drag them into totems, call guards.  Do all sorts of available, neat, options.

A party duel at NONT requires people to actually want to play (1 requirement of a raid)
Requires those people to not get lolganked by people who want em dead (not a requirement.. usually)
No totems/home-field advantage (1 thing a raid provides)

A city raid impacts a lot of people who don't want to be raided or attacked, which is partly why Cyrene went in the direction it did. The other stuff impacts people who actually want to fight. It's real rough that it's not exactly how they want things. If only there was another city they could live in that might get them what they want.

Oh no, trust me.  I'm not advocating one-way-or-the-other.

I'm just stating differences between a group brawl at NONT and a city getting raided.

Keorin

Farrah said:

Keorin said:

Nazihk said:

Keorin said:

I maintain that the Shield -could- be a great house, if some things were different. We have a good advancement system, and some of the most interesting/best written ceremonies that I've seen post-reneissance. But Cyrene as a whole can be very stifling to combatants (let's remember that "you can't bring conflict to Cyrene" means that you can't defend other cities, and that you have to accept all comers as dauntless for fear that Ashtan might come again), we've lost most of our best fighters and teachers to boredom/dormancy/political disagreement (Aerek/Kenway/Dochitha/Wessux), and while I like our leaders as people, the most I've seen them do to address our dwindling numbers is to make the novice requirements easier, which has unsurprisingly done little to motivate the people who aren't advancing anyways. I think it's going to take sustained effort by people to start building this house up, and I don't see it happening currently, particularly since our leaders, like all Cyrenian ones, it seems, have little interest in stepping down no matter how long they've been in power or how little time or ideas they have.

Bringing up how nice your ceremonies are when you are talking about a failing combat house has to be the most Cyrenian thing I have ever seen on these forums. 

The Cyrene combat house is floundering because it is a combat house in Cyrene. That's really all there is to it.

You are not going to have a healthy combat house in a city that actively avoids all conflict because a city that actively avoids conflict won't maintain a stable population of fighters. That is the bottom line. The good fighters, generally speaking, like to fight. As a result they, generally speaking, don't live in cities that try to avoid fighting. There is no way to fix the house unless you can address this discrepancy.

I bring up ceremonies, because in -any- house, things that give meaning and identity are essential. In a combat house, those ceremonies help to define why one fights, and give identity to your house and your character. While I'm sure that there are people out there who only care about fighting itself, I, for one, like some roleplay in my roleplaying game, and so I very much like those ceremonies.

I think you're partially right about the issues the house faces. At the moment, you can't join the Shield and expect to seriously engage in group combat. If Cyrene someday got less completely terrified of being raided, or people in other cities would be willing to seek revenge on the people who fight rather then a city as a whole, then maybe we could be allowed to help defend other cities but for now it's just not a possibility.

That said, there's no reason that it can't be a good city for people who prefer to focus on 1v1. There have been times in the house's history where we've had a solid core of fighters and good activity from them. Our biggest problems are far more mundane really. Stagnant leadership, no house-wide activity, and nothing to actually encourage people to want to stay in the house are all issues that many houses have faced before, and which have made many other houses stagnant before this one.

Honestly, I'm not sure people will ever be completely satisfied with new Houses simply because they are not and cannot be what old Houses were. Old Houses had an identity because they had something to define them - class.

I think I clarified badly in my first post, but just to be clear, I understand that making a house run, let alone adding things, is damned hard, and I have massive respect for the active leaders who put their time and energy in to doing just that. Heck, I'm probably more often part of the problem then part of the solution, myself. I'm frustrated with how things are largely because of how much good stuff got deleted, really, not at the leaders who are working to make what we have better. You guys are awesome.

I don't agree that old houses were all unified from class, though. Some very obviously were, but several had broadened to be defined not on classes, but on archetypes. Personally, I wish that model had been what was pushed during the renaissance, rather then the city/activity based houses we got.

Verrucht said:

Jonathin said:

90% of Hashan remains unaffected by raids aside from a room getting blown up and usually, people can just walk the other way around the parade of founders.

It's not a very good argument to say that it involves more than just the people that want to play because unless it's in your laws that people have to defend, they can just go about their daily business. 80% of of the active population of Hashan doesn't even respond when there is a raid and they remain blissfully in their own little worlds while the other 20% are happy to fight.

It's actually more of a cultural thing, people feel obligated to defend even if they don't want to. Not everyone, mind you, but quite a few people. Definitely more people than those who are asking Cyrene to be raided or want Cyrene to be raided.

Also just, I think it's a very good argument that the minority should not seek to negatively impact the majority in an organisation. I understand that you may not feel that way, and that's nice and all, but I feel like that's part of being a conscientious player. 

As to this, personally, I feel like being a conscientious player means trying to create spaces where everyone can have fun, rather then trying to segment off parts of the game into places that only your kinds of players can enjoy. We're not talking Qashar-style city occupations here, we're talking people potentially having to leave the city for an hour every once in a while. I don't see that as a particularly severe accommodation.

And if the problem is feeling like you have to participate, then I don't think raids themselves are the issue here. Play the game how you want to play it, don't say that people should play in different cities because you don't enjoy your own roleplay.

Siena

I know that I have come back only recently....however....
I play a game to get away from the stresses of life. When a game becomes something similar to school or a paying job, I don't like to play anymore. I wasn't interested in what Targossas had to offer nor Ashtan for that matter. I decided to give Eleusis a try and I am glad I did. I voted for the Heartwood Kin. I like it because Achaea still feels like a game that way and not another time-consuming stress. As @Jonathin said, I don't want a game where it forces to be more than that. Eleusis and Heartwood Kin gives me a fun gaming experience whereas Cyrene is too boring for me or Ashtan/Mhaldor/Targossas too stressful. Life is already crazy. Don't need to add to it 

Sirrion

Personally, I'd rather see houses continue to be large vague entities clearly tied to the city's purpose. Just add the ability to create guilds tied to the faction. Make them take x citizens to create. Make them cost an outrageous sum of gold yearly. Force them to construct a guild hall only in allied towns, that costs an outrageous amount of commodities. Then everyone can have their tight knit rp, remove gold from the game, remove commodities from the market, and create opportunities for conflict and rp outside the city gates. 

Aerek

Verrucht said:

Aerek said:

 In my experience, it's the "no skill use" policy that discourages fighters in Cyrene more than anything. It's just tiresome to have people whining at you constantly, or the looming threat of actual punishment, simply because you wanted to improve yourself without hogging the arena for the next hour.

Well, it's just in no public areas. If you do it in the Shield House or the public part of the hub, or even an out of the way part of the city that people won't see it'd be fine. Also, the purpose was to allow the Shield to hog the arena, that's why it was free. But, I mean, whatever. Some people don't want to be happy.

This is the tune that you've been singing for years, but the fact that a high percentage of your prominent/upcoming fighters have all left or chosen retirement/dormancy, and that the Shield that was once very large and active is now a desolate cemetery, should make it pretty obvious that this and other Cyrenian attitudes toward combat make the city unwelcoming to even the casual combatant.

Whether that's your intention or not, the results speak for themselves.

Liyane

So, I've recently come back and I completely missed the previous house system. The last time I played was in the time of Guilds (circa 2003) and I will say I am enjoying the game significantly more than under that system. At that time I ended up having to choose between the class I liked, Runewarden, and the Guild that I liked, Druid. I hated the old Runewarden Guild as it was super stuffy and uptight and loved the Druid Guild because the people were fairly laid back and focused on having a good time... So I'm pleased that currently I don't have to choose between the two and can get the play style I want both in bashing/combat and in RP/Social.

That being said, I still find myself having to compromise when it comes to the advancement paths in the Eleusian houses. I have struggled to feel a connection to the Scions advancement path and when I've made an alt to check out the advancement for the Heartwood Kin I wasn't particularly drawn there either. The house that I found to have the most interesting advancement paths (after making some alts in just about all of them at least long enough to read the help scrolls) is the Outriders... so in a way I'm back to where I started in having to make a compromise XD.

TL; DR: I'd be super behind further decentralization of houses as separate entities from cities.

Bann

Man this thread is pure gold. Pure. Gold.

Also wtf is a party duel? I'm Ashtani and never heard of it.

Also also if Ashtan wants to raid your city, Ashtan is gonna raid your city. It doesn't matter if there's two of us or ten of us. Hell, @Lylith and I "raided" Eleusis last night and she ended up getting like 15% from it, while I lost my level 100 T_T rip.