The Revelation

Exelethril

Can confirm Proficy RPs

[spoiler]with the lol emote[/spoiler]

Keorin

No one said he doesn't RP, people are saying he breaks immersion/character by saying things that only make sense OOC. 

Also messages that start with "//" are pretty recognized as being messages specifically communicating OOCly. If someone doesn't want to have any OOC communication, even through messages, you should probably just tell someone that you don't want that sort of communication in game at all.

Korben

Begun, the Shrine War has.

Omor

Shine war confused me before, I honestly only did it to troll. Now, though, I'm not sure I even know how to go about it, much less actually troll with it.. so... I guess I'm more confused.

Ryzeth

Keorin said:

If someone doesn't want to have any OOC communication, even through messages, you should probably just tell someone that you don't want that sort of communication in game at all.

There's virtually nothing that says you have to take an OOC comment as being OOC, just because they use fancy identifiers to get around talking with your character.

Just like bitching / insulting someone doesn't save you from repercussions, just because you included fancy little (( )) symbols in your tells.

If you want to talk OOCly with someone, you ask them first if they're okay with it. If you don't, they're well within their rights to not treat it as IC if they want.

Ahmet

Ryzeth said:

Keorin said:

If someone doesn't want to have any OOC communication, even through messages, you should probably just tell someone that you don't want that sort of communication in game at all.

There's virtually nothing that says you have to take an OOC comment as being OOC, just because they use fancy identifiers to get around talking with your character.

Just like bitching / insulting someone doesn't save you from repercussions, just because you included fancy little (( )) symbols in your tells.

If you want to talk OOCly with someone, you ask them first if they're okay with it. If you don't, they're well within their rights to not treat it as IC if they want.

If a comment is clearly marked as OOC, it's OOC. If you don't want someone to converse with you OOCly, then tell them. If they don't stop, IGNORE exists for a reason.

Granted, harassment and insults and other such rules apply in OOC conversations, but treating what is clearly an OOC message as an IC one, especially if they're initiating a conversation as purely OOC, just makes you a prick. There's no difference between 'fuck you' and '((fuck you))', but if someone approaches you asking for a discussion OOCly and you respond with something like "Why would I ever converse with a heathen such as you?", you're a prick, plain and simple.

Ryzeth

Ahmet said:

Ryzeth said:

If you want to talk OOCly with someone, you ask them first if they're okay with it.

You basically just repeated what I said. To each their own, though. There's nothing that says I have to treat 'OOC' stuff as ooc.

I read something on Imperian forums I rather agree with when it comes to this kinda situation in IRE games in general.

"Anything that I hear inside the game itself can be taken as 100% IC. Anything. It doesn't matter what it is. It doesn't matter if you put up your ((rp shields)) or if you erect your //rpbarrier. If I hear it, I can take it as IC and I can act on it. Any channel, any subject, with anybody. The only exceptions to this are if you are talking to Jeremy and the other OOC admin characters. Everything else is IC and actionable."

Exception to the bolded, are clans that are specifically OOC. Everything else is fair game.

Xaden

If it's just out of the blue 'tell ryzeth // brace yourself we're coming in dry' then aye that's fine.

If however you are having an ooc conversation with someone, with actual back and forth //'s and then you take that conversation IC you're in the wrong.

Keorin

Ryzeth said:

Ahmet said:

Ryzeth said:

If you want to talk OOCly with someone, you ask them first if they're okay with it.

You basically just repeated what I said. To each their own, though. There's nothing that says I have to treat 'OOC' stuff as ooc.

I read something on Imperian forums I rather agree with when it comes to this kinda situation in IRE games in general.

"Anything that I hear inside the game itself can be taken as 100% IC. Anything. It doesn't matter what it is. It doesn't matter if you put up your ((rp shields)) or if you erect your //rpbarrier. If I hear it, I can take it as IC and I can act on it. Any channel, any subject, with anybody. The only exceptions to this are if you are talking to Jeremy and the other OOC admin characters. Everything else is IC and actionable."

Exception to the bolded, are clans that are specifically OOC. Everything else is fair game.

I disagree with this pretty strongly. Sure, there's nothing that says you -have- to, just like there's no rules saying you -have- to roleplay beyond the absolute minimum (don't shout about IRL things). Achaea isn't an RPI, there are minimal rules for just about all roleplay and communication, but that doesn't mean we can't try to hold ourselves to better standards.

OOC communication assists tremendously for a lot of things. It's necessary in a game like this for certain cases, and in others it helps us to manage a fun game world as players (like communicating with enemy forces about raids and such). I think judicious use of it is simply good RPG practice. 

While I personally would always suggest asking if someone is alright with some OOC first, I think that 99% of the time, sending them a message asking them to stop isn't really an unreasonable request, either. That said, if you want to take messages you -know- are supposed to be OOC and have your character react to them, you're perfectly allowed to. But that -is- taking something out of character into character, if you know it's supposed to be OOC and they've used common practices to tag it as such. Doing that is generally always permitted by the rules, but that doesn't make it good roleplay.

I suppose I'm just of the opinion that we should always be trying to make our shared world more enjoyable and more immersive for other people in it.

Ankhareoutef

People who take marked OOC things as IC things are assholes.

Ryzeth

No more so than ones who only ever ask OOCly before doing anything that might have a bad outcome, if they went with whatever they had in mind.

Please tell me more about how someone who favours OOC conversations for everything- whether present, or in the close future- IC, is a better person.

Calira

Ryzeth said:

Please tell me more about how someone who favours OOC conversations for everything- whether present, or in the close future- IC, is a better person.

Middle-grounds exist

Sena

Treating clearly OOC (though in-game) communication as IC doesn't seem any different from treating out-of-game communication as IC, in my opinion. ICly discussing something you heard on an OOC clan or a clearly-OOC tell is no better, to me, than ICly discussing something you read in a Facebook post for example. I see no real difference between the two.

Nazihk

There's a certain class of player who thinks that throwing up their ((rp shields)) before they talk trash is enough to keep them from suffering the consequences of talking trash. So you get things like "((you're a fucking coward, ganking me while bashing. Duel me 1v1 and i'll kick your ass))".

The proper response to this situation is to ignore them until the next time you see them bashing, at which point you should kill them again for insulting you. An insult delivered from behind your RP shields is still an insult and you can totally get killed over it.

Ankhareoutef

Sena said:

Treating clearly OOC (though in-game) communication as IC doesn't seem any different from treating out-of-game communication as IC, in my opinion. ICly discussing something you heard on an OOC clan or a clearly-OOC tell is no better, to me, than ICly discussing something you read in a Facebook post for example. I see no real difference between the two.

These people are also assholes.

Bann

Anything said in the game can be taken as IC. If you want to consider something 100% OOC, say it on Skype or AIM or whatever. That's not really a 'decent' way to view things, but it is what it is.

Most people aren't so common, though. In fact, 90% of my tells don't have a single ( or / in them, and are OOC as shit. It was very much a culture shock for me, coming here from MKO/Aetolia, and there are a couple of my buddies who I never expect a single IC thing from unless it's out loud in a say.

Someone talking shit is just one of those things that's probably going to get them killed, and it's also one of those things I try very hard not to do.

Farrah

It's a culture shock that people use // or that they don't use it?

That culture varies pretty widely across factions and groups of people. The main Ashtan pk group is heavily OOC compared to most factions, though there are people in other factions who are too.

I'm still of the mind that you shouldn't send OOC tells to people unless they consented, but it's a spreading thing.

Bann

Farrah said:

It's a culture shock that people use // or that they don't use it?

That culture varies pretty widely across factions and groups of people. The main Ashtan pk group is heavily OOC compared to most factions, though there are people in other factions who are too.

I'm still of the mind that you shouldn't send OOC tells to people unless they consented, but it's a spreading thing.

It's actually not Ashtani who are the main ones that do this

Dunn

Lol ok. 

Omor

Generally speaking, I'm IC unless in a party or tell. My tells are IC unless // precedes them. Party, though, "pt lol k bruh" is probably my most common typed phrase.

Jacen

I have no issue with being told with OOC tags that someone's too laggy to do something, or they have to leave soon, or going from a clan OOC conversation into more private tells. I generally won't hesitate to do the same myself either, unless its someone I don't know well, or is from another faction or something. Seems kind of weird to me to get up in arms over a player wanting to talk to you, and forcing them to funnel things that are more appropriately said OOC through IC channels because... reasons?

This is how we ended up with "I'm really feeling the aeon" and "my soul has to leave for awhile."

Kiskan

lol at people talking about jumping -Proficy- because he talked smack OOC.  Or in IC.  I mean, I guess if he talks smack to Jhui he's got something to worry about.  That's sort of the problem with that line of reasoning/justification.  A chunk of the game is basically "above the law" in every way that matters.

EDIT:  it is what it is, but people sometimes present it as though players have something akin to an equal shot at some kind of recourse in these situations, which is simply untrue.  I think that hurts people's expectation management and then they get doubly frustrated when they can't achieve recourse.  It's actually better to go in knowing that you're mostly at the mercy of these guys unless you can kill them, or have friends that can, because that is how the games work.  It helps you go in with the right mindset, knowing what to expect, and how things really work.

Frederich

I OOC a lot, but it's generally with people I know.

Also if I'm in dragon form (since i'm very expressive with how I talk with the emoticons at the end), I usually can't actually be as expressive.  Which sucks.  So I have to substitute what I'd actually feel/say as a dragon at the end.  tell <person> "OH MY GOSH ITS SO NICE TO SEE YOU! ."

Farrah

Omor said:

Generally speaking, I'm IC unless in a party or tell. My tells are IC unless // precedes them. Party, though, "pt lol k bruh" is probably my most common typed phrase.

Right. Never seen parties as OOC as Ashtan's get. To each their own, though. I'm not saying it in a negative light. It's just not my personal preference.

Kiskan said:

lol at people talking about jumping -Proficy- because he talked smack OOC.  Or in IC.  I mean, I guess if he talks smack to Jhui he's got something to worry about.  That's sort of the problem with that line of reasoning/justification.  A chunk of the game is basically "above the law" in every way that matters.

EDIT:  it is what it is, but people sometimes present it as though players have something akin to an equal shot at some kind of recourse in these situations, which is simply untrue.  I think that hurts people's expectation management and then they get doubly frustrated when they can't achieve recourse.  It's actually better to go in knowing that you're mostly at the mercy of these guys unless you can kill them, or have friends that can, because that is how the games work.  It helps you go in with the right mindset, knowing what to expect, and how things really work.

There is always recourse through the marks, though admittedly not 100% guaranteed, no. Everyone dies sometimes to somebody.

Kiskan

My view on Mark type systems is that I'd be ecstatic if my guy got the kill.  I've barely had occasion to use the Mark system here because I pretty much avoided PK at all costs when I played Achaea and was also fairly cautious about theft stuff.  That said, I did get a chance to use the Mark system after it got its big overhaul, because I'd been absent a long time, and wasn't up to snuff on some theft changes.  I was pretty ecstatic I got Jarrod.  I could tell he was going to make a good faith effort and he's definitely able to kill people.  The problem was, even though the new system gave me a better shot at getting a good Mark who sincerely wanted to do the job, his target basically just laid low and or didn't log in, or had plenty of backup, and that seems to be fairly typical.  Pretty sure he didn't get her.  And she wasn't even a "real" PK-er.  Just a thief that could run to Mhaldor and had Mhaldor to back her up (I think he might actually be Mhaldorian himself now, but he was Ashtani then).  

I mainly wanted to shoot down the whole idea that "just kill him" for the kind of crap Proficy (apparently) does is something that is any sort of real option for most people.  And it's often those people who talk the most shit.  Exactly because they know they CAN.  

So absolute best case scenario you might get a single kill on a guy like that through the Mark system for what was probably a hell of a lot of shit-talking - whereas if you can kill the person (or better yet, can round up a gank squad - because pinning down slippery targets), sure, you just hunt them down every time they say something jerkish.  At the very least, you can probably make them log out or not leave their guardstack.  And I think this crowd knows that you can get away with a LOT before you need to be worried about an issue that might stick, so long as you can write a good response.  I didn't truly understand just how rarely the issue system actually applies for the longest time, and I think a lot of players don't.  In fact, the best way to start to learn about the issue system and its limits, is to be fairly involved in PK in one of the games.  Someone sort of touched on it in the What Happened thread.  It truly is for a few very specific types of instances, and those instances have to be something that could get IRE sued, or the person has to be practically rezz killing you on guards or something.  That is really IT.

Kiskan

Achaea has such short edit times... Just wanted to add that as for more creative, long term forms of vengeance that are sometimes suggested... I mean, you'd have to practically go Count of Monte Cristo there in most cases.

Nazihk

If you can't kill them alone, bring a friend. If you and your friend can't kill them, bring more friend!

Kiskan

I already mentioned bringing friends if you have them.  But you need the right friends.    

I also think most people who have those kind of friends already have a pretty good idea of what they'd need to bring along to try to gank a guy like Proficy (who also has some pretty good friends he'll likely bring, if not in match 1, certainly in the rematch).  They don't need to be told about RP-barriers on a forum in the first place.  They already know, and they'll gank if they have the right manpower.

One of my biggest beefs about the whole "RP barrier" conversation is the insinuation that it's usually non-coms or lower tier PK-ers (people who are easy to take out) that have the biggest mouths.  Those that do sure don't last long.  It's actually (some of) the guys who can win, and who have buddies who can make sure they win, who usually won't shut up in a game like this.  

Sarathai

Kiskan said:

I also think most people who have those kind of friends already have a pretty good idea of what they'd need to bring along to try to gank a guy like Proficy (who also has some pretty good friends he'll likely bring, if not in match 1, certainly in the rematch).

Proficy won't bring friends in a rematch. He'll just chase everybody involved individually for the next few days.

Kiskan

If he can chase them down and take them out that easily alone (before people can arrive to help) they're not the right kind of friends and you are in the situation most people are actually in - can't kill the guy myself, don't have the right kind of friends.  And that is the situation where your best option, your only option really, is to do nothing and take it on the chin.  

There's a threshold of artifacts/competence there, and if you don't meet that threshold, taking him down is sort of a trap.  You want to avoid the trap.  So if your friends can't actually beat him, they are pretty good at tanking/running/stalling/calling for help that can arrive quickly and so forth.