Latest batch of seafaring changes!

Anaria

Aerek said:

I am a lightly artefacted Dragon who can't easily hunt DKs/Annwyn/etc. I can make about 30k/hr bashing things that I can easily handle, or I can make 30k/hr seamonster hunting. For me, 30k/hr is worth it, plus I find the thrill of monsters more fun. Every midbie that I've taken out sea hunting has been blown away by the earning potential, and wants to do it more. If 30-40k/hr is not enough gold for you, I'd say you have very high expectations, and that a Seafaring faucet that could pour out the kind of money you want (100k/hr per person?) is not a reasonable expectation. If you think 15k/hr from grinding L1 zones is too low, I agree with you! But instead of saying that L1 zones need to be better so you can continue to anchor-tank monsters that (should, once fixed) have no risk of killing you, I'd say that 15k/hr is reasonable for the low amount of risk you're taking, and if you want more, you should gather a crew and go fight real monsters like you're supposed to.

(place holder line)

Aerek said:

You spend 1 hour, alone, in a kiddie pool, kill 1 monster every 20 min because spawns are capped at every 20 min, 5k per, and make 15k. I spend 1hr in the Phocian with 3, I can kill 1 monster about every 5-10min because they have no spawn cap, 15k per, and make 90k-120k total, 30k-40k per person. I make 200%-260% your earnings, in the same amount of time.

Difficulty finding crew is valid, I don't get to go out every day. Difficulty dealing with higher damage post-Hullgird is valid, I probably can't kill Phocian critters in 10min anymore, until the rebalancing is done. But limiting yourself to the L1 zones because there's no risk to you, solo, in a strider, is still your problem, the system is not meant to be gamed in the way you're gaming it. If parking a ship in the kiddie pool and plugging away is the only way you liked monster hunting, it's fair to say the system is not really designed for you. I don't get why you would like that sort of repetitive action and not regular hunting.

Just so I'm clear on what you are saying here...

People who hunt the L1 zones make substantially less than dragon loop-bashing, which also carries absolutely no risk? I agree.

People who hunt the bigger monsters make substantially more at times when they actually have a large enough crew for a meaningful voyage? I agree, and good for them.

Pre-hullgird change I was making around 50% of dragon bashing and even less than higher zone seamonstering? Sounds about right.

But somehow, I have been "gaming the system"?????? HUH???

Marisella

Maybe it's the average experienced ship crew or something, but I found that 20 mins per spawn for the lowest sea monster level pools to be just fine. I would kill a sea monster northeast of Mysia and then sail down past Zanzibaar to kill a second sea monster east of Tapoa. By the time I sail back up, it's already been 20 minutes.

Sometimes, I sail west over to Tapoa to see if I can do the area there by myself; I tried it once or twice, and I think it's entirely possible pre-changes with a bit of smart planning, but I have not tried it post-change yet!

Ahmet

@Anaria except you're not a fully-artefacted dragon who can loop-bash annwyn/catacombs. Someone could go out and do what you're doing solo at level 80 (if not lower) without much trouble. You should be making about what someone hunting at level 80 makes (if not less), if we really wanted to make things even with bashing, in terms of gold generation. Which, hey, actually seems pretty fkin spot on for this situation.

You're "gaming" the system, as Aerek puts it, by doing things in a way that you're not intended to do them, by design, and then complaining that you're not making enough because you're not doing things the way they're intended to be done.

Just my two cents. Ahmet out.

Kiskan

I am really, really excited about the forceboarding change, which should allow someone like me to finally consider taking part in ship combat (hopefully with a crew) without having to assume that it will almost always morph into regular PK with Achaea's elite PK-ers, which is definitely something I don't think most players are going to be ready for any time soon.  With forceboarding, it just really wasn't ever going to be the ship combat I'd hoped to sign up for.  From the beginning, ship combat was touted as a sort of simplified group combat that should be a bit easier for people to get into in terms of complexity, and I had been excited about that, but then felt I'd been sort of tricked into being raided by A-team on a floating roach motel (they check in but they don't check out ).  So, thanks for fixing things so that the system works more like I think a lot of us had been hoping it would.   

As for the economic portion, I'll reserve judgment there because I haven't tried it yet, but I do feel that Achaean systems definitely have a strong tendency to squeeze players pretty hard compared to other IRE, pretty much across the board.  Ships are money pits for sure, and I think most ship owners actually do accept that.  Although, there's a tipping point, and crew to consider.  I have a huge amount of investment and ongoing upkeep for my ships, and I accept that.  What I actually probably wouldn't accept would be if I felt the need to pay my player crewmates significant sums to make sure it was worth their while to crew with me.  In other words, if the payouts from doing these monsters not only took me out of pocket for extra supplies and such, but I felt the need to pad meager returns from the kills, ugh.  So hopefully, that is not the case.  

Jinsun

Ok having tried tethers, they need a cool-down on chop. Having 4 people on the ship should not mean you can chop all the tethers at once. Seafaring is very much becoming "Who has more people on their ship?" and not about skill.

Kiet

Seafaring definitely should be lucrative if you want actual people to be out at sea. If you're a pirate, you definitely want more people out at sea.

Sena

Aerek said:

If all you want to do is generate gold, there are always going to be cheaper/more efficient ways to do that. Monster hunting is group PVE, an exciting team activity that brings folks together in a unique setting that ALSO happens to pay in gold if you're good at it.

Why does it have to be that way, though? Would it really be a problem if seafaring offered one of the best gold generating activities?

Krypton

Jinsun said:

Ok having tried tethers, they need a cool-down on chop. Having 4 people on the ship should not mean you can chop all the tethers at once. Seafaring is very much becoming "Who has more people on their ship?" and not about skill.

Um... a 4x chopping efficiency sounds like exactly what having 4 able bodies on board should do?

Jinsun

Krypton said:

Jinsun said:

Ok having tried tethers, they need a cool-down on chop. Having 4 people on the ship should not mean you can chop all the tethers at once. Seafaring is very much becoming "Who has more people on their ship?" and not about skill.

Um... a 4x chopping efficiency sounds like exactly what having 4 able bodies on board should do?

What I'm saying is, now Seafaring really just means whoever has more people wins. It's boring and silly. The whole thing of forceboard was it enabled 1 person to take on ships with 4-5 people, and to be honest, if you can kill 4-5 people at one time with pvp, those people shouldn't be engaging in aggressive activities until they learn to do it. I also think the new rule of no retribution on land is stupid as well. You can kill for virtually anything but ship attacks now, and being sunk costs a shit ton of gold. It's completely illogical. You can hire someone for someone pickpocketing 10 gold, but plundering and sinking is now some graced action. 

Jinsun

But it's not a contest of seafaring. It's just a DPS contest of who has more crew.

Edit: And that is my major issue. Before, if you didn't have someone to grapple, you'd either chase or if you thought you could tank swashies and group damage, you'd board. Now, if you're alone and someone rolls up with 5 people on their ship, even if you're a better captain, you won't have a prayer. It focuses way too much on having a bonus for having a large crew, and kinda leaves solo and small crews out to dry.

Kresslack

Jinsun said:

Krypton said:

Jinsun said:

Ok having tried tethers, they need a cool-down on chop. Having 4 people on the ship should not mean you can chop all the tethers at once. Seafaring is very much becoming "Who has more people on their ship?" and not about skill.

Um... a 4x chopping efficiency sounds like exactly what having 4 able bodies on board should do?

What I'm saying is, now Seafaring really just means whoever has more people wins. It's boring and silly.

It's a lot less boring and silly than one person on a Cutter being able to sail up and kill the captain and shipmates on a larger ship.

This is how Seafaring should have worked to begin with. Solo sailing as an option for exploratory, ferrying, and fishing but the more hands on deck the more you can accomplish, and larger ships by nature invite and require more people.

Jinsun said:

But it's not a contest of seafaring. It's just a DPS contest of who has more crew.

Edit: And that is my major issue. Before, if you didn't have someone to grapple, you'd either chase or if you thought you could tank swashies and group damage, you'd board. Now, if you're alone and someone rolls up with 5 people on their ship, even if you're a better captain, you won't have a prayer. It focuses way too much on having a bonus for having a large crew, and kinda leaves solo and small crews out to dry.

I feel as if this is the intent of the design, so as to encourage more people sailing together, which in turns makes sailing a lot less boring. Because compared to one person sailing and doing everything else on the ship and everyone else standing around idle, people now have things to do.

Jinsun

Kresslack said:

Jinsun said:

Krypton said:

Jinsun said:

Ok having tried tethers, they need a cool-down on chop. Having 4 people on the ship should not mean you can chop all the tethers at once. Seafaring is very much becoming "Who has more people on their ship?" and not about skill.

Um... a 4x chopping efficiency sounds like exactly what having 4 able bodies on board should do?

What I'm saying is, now Seafaring really just means whoever has more people wins. It's boring and silly.

It's a lot less boring and silly than one person on a Cutter being able to sail up and kill the captain and shipmates on a larger ship.

This is how Seafaring should have worked to begin with. Solo sailing as an option for exploratory, ferrying, and fishing but the more hands on deck the more you can accomplish, and larger ships by nature invite and require more people.

Jinsun said:

But it's not a contest of seafaring. It's just a DPS contest of who has more crew.

Edit: And that is my major issue. Before, if you didn't have someone to grapple, you'd either chase or if you thought you could tank swashies and group damage, you'd board. Now, if you're alone and someone rolls up with 5 people on their ship, even if you're a better captain, you won't have a prayer. It focuses way too much on having a bonus for having a large crew, and kinda leaves solo and small crews out to dry.

I feel as if this is the intent of the design, so as to encourage more people sailing together, which in turns makes sailing a lot less boring. Because compared to one person sailing and doing everything else on the ship and everyone else standing around idle, people now have things to do.

So essentially, screw you if you really like ship v. ship combat and have no one to sail with?

Morthif

You don't like ship v ship combat. You like force boarding and PKing then sinking empty ships

Jinsun

Morthif said:

You don't like ship v ship combat. You like force boarding and PKing then sinking empty ships

Not true. I've got a ton of non-forceboarding sinks under my belt, heh. I just rarely have enough people in Ashtan who want to go sailing.

Kresslack

The whole point is ship vs ship combat is that it's supposed to be a multi-person activity, not an individual one; sailing itself is supposed to be a multi-person activity. One person can be expected to manage a ship for a simple expedition, or a calm fishing trip. Still, if you run into trouble on the seas, you're just one person. You're inherently supposed to be at a disadvantage. Thus the incentive to get a crew together and actually work with people to make sailing interesting and involved, compared to one person just running around sinking someone because it's possible. So if you like ship vs ship combat, try making some friends and forming a crew, because that's how it's supposed to be done.

Ahmet

It'd be a shame if the way someone acted IC drove others away from them.

It'd be nice if there was a highclan for pirating where you could find people to sail with.

It'd be amazing if four people could do things faster than one person.

It'd be so realistic and fair if it were nigh-impossible for one-person to win against four people in any sort of combat scenario.

Oh wait.

Kiskan

I was always on board with trying to fully man ships.  One problem I always had though, was being able to get the crew I could actually get my hands on into the SPPs we needed, even though I'd given up on ever commanding my own ship, knowing that most people I'd ever get to crew would have lots of command SPPs.  The most troublesome thing was deckhand, because of its remoteness, but really, it would have been really nice to be able to do all necessary SPP shuffling on land, and then set sail.  

And at the time, there was a lot of stubbornness about making it easier to shuffle SPPs on the fly.  So in short, you not only needed a crew, you needed what the military would call a hard crew, where you always have the same people, doing the same job, and you manage to get them all together at the same time, every time, to do a mission.  The best pirates clearly managed this, and were also the people most against making it a bit easier for crews to work with the people they could get.  I think it's just too high a bar for the average guy trying to put some kind of decent crew together.  Has this been mitigated at all?  Might it be?  I understand there are some changes to SPPs... but not sure if you still need "particular" SPPs to have a solid crew lineup.

Kresslack

Kiskan said:

I was always on board with trying to fully man ships.  One problem I always had though, was being able to get the crew I could actually get my hands on into the SPPs we needed, even though I'd given up on ever commanding my own ship, knowing that most people I'd ever get to crew would have lots of command SPPs.  The most troublesome thing was deckhand, because of its remoteness, but really, it would have been really nice to be able to do all necessary SPP shuffling on land, and then set sail.  

And at the time, there was a lot of stubbornness about making it easier to shuffle SPPs on the fly.  So in short, you not only needed a crew, you needed what the military would call a hard crew, where you always have the same people, doing the same job, and you manage to get them all together at the same time, every time, to do a mission.  The best pirates clearly managed this, and were also the people most against making it a bit easier for crews to work with the people they could get.  I think it's just too high a bar for the average guy trying to put some kind of decent crew together.  Has this been mitigated at all?  Might it be?  I understand there are some changes to SPPs... but not sure if you still need "particular" SPPs to have a solid crew lineup.

Having a dedicated crew is near impossible unless you just happen to stumble across some other people with the same interest and same activity time as you. The variance in play times and other obligations IC'ly largely prevent(ed) this and made it a pipe-dream.

I would much rather sail with a set crew and get comfortable with working together and even take on greenhorns to show them the ropes. To me, that is how seafaring should be, and I think that would be the most rewarding. You form a crew, build some bonds, have some adventures. Pass knowledge and skills down to fresh, wide-eyed greenhorns and build from there.

Alas, as this is a game and there is still a significant lack of interest in Seafaring (mainly stemming from people chasing coin, which can be understandable), this is hard to accomplish. I've always sailed for the pure enjoyment of the activity, sometimes for the opportunity to get away from the chaos of the mainland, other times to chase a bit of danger, maybe a bit of coin, but even if I was bored out of my mind I could sail around Sapience and enjoy it.

It's just a matter of finding those individuals who are as passionate about it as you are. Such groups have popped up from time to time, and hopefully more will again in the future.

Shirszae

I do think it'd be easier to gather crew, in a way, if all specialisation teachers were on the mainland. Right now Deckhand is on the fucker's end of the world, Command is on Zanzibaar and Helm is on Zaphar. That makes people generally not want to give up their specialisations in any of those, because then they have to trek back to regain them. 

Unfortunately, the admins seem to be against moving the teachers to more accessible areas.

Kresslack

I don't think they need to be moved, or more accessible. It's a journey, as it should be, as well as an investment. The specialists being spread out are, I imagine, intended to make people give careful consideration towards their point dispersal, knowing the time and travel investment required to respec.

Shirszae

Yes, and making it needlessly hard to sail with people who don't all have the same SPP. But hey, if that is how you like it.

Kresslack

Shirszae said:

Yes, and making it needlessly hard to sail with people who don't all have the same SPP. But hey, if that is how you like it.

How exactly is it needlessly hard? Sailing up to Suliel isn't nearly as difficult as people make it out to be, especially with the chop changes I imagine. People just find it tedious, but you know, that's sometimes part of it. If a person isn't interested in sailing that trip themselves, or investing the time to travel to such a location, that is their prerogative. Deckhand is one of the more essentially useful specs which can contribute a lot to a ship in many various circumstances. As such, I think the placement of the specialist is rather appropriate for the benefit it yields.

Skye

Sailing is an immense time investment not afforded by a lot of people. I don't sail as much as I'd like and during the hours that most other people are active. Which is one of the frustrating things because it's not that I don't want to help when you're 3 hooks deep and getting your hull reamed. It's that I'm half-naked with facial product all over my hands trying to get dressed for work. And the next time you see me again, I am at work!

I just feel like I want to get that out there because people are always complaining that 'there's so many of you and nobody wants to sail out and do that ship combat thing'. Well some of us have to work, we don't get unemployment benefits in our country and our work hours are long and often unreasonable. And our timezones put our actual full-attention playtimes at 'offpeak' and by the time we do get home after a whole day of wrangling snotty children and unreasonable parents, we're mostly half asleep and have no energy to sail anyway.

...that came out more ranty than I intended but there you go.

Kinilan

What the?

Kresslack

That's understandable, which is why it's typically difficult to get a crew together. The same could be said about nearly anything in Achaea, however, especially hunting. I don't sail nearly as much as I'd like. By the time I get home I have maybe 2-3 hours of free time, if I don't have work I bring home with me and if I'm not exhausted. Sometimes, there just isn't time. I try to make up for it when there is the time, but at the end of the day other things take priority.

I don't see, as a result, a way to reasonably make accommodations. This is a game which, inevitably, requires a certain commitment of time for certain aspects more than others.

Taraus

Skye said:

Sailing is an immense time investment not afforded by a lot of people. I don't sail as much as I'd like and during the hours that most other people are active. Which is one of the frustrating things because it's not that I don't want to help when you're 3 hooks deep and getting your hull reamed. It's that I'm half-naked with facial product all over my hands trying to get dressed for work. And the next time you see me again, I am at work!

is that what the kids are calling it these days?

Kiskan

Kresslack said:

Shirszae said:

Yes, and making it needlessly hard to sail with people who don't all have the same SPP. But hey, if that is how you like it.

How exactly is it needlessly hard? Sailing up to Suliel isn't nearly as difficult as people make it out to be, especially with the chop changes I imagine. People just find it tedious, but you know, that's sometimes part of it. If a person isn't interested in sailing that trip themselves, or investing the time to travel to such a location, that is their prerogative. Deckhand is one of the more essentially useful specs which can contribute a lot to a ship in many various circumstances. As such, I think the placement of the specialist is rather appropriate for the benefit it yields.

The problem is, say I know a couple guys who might be willing to crew with me sometimes, maybe even take on the risk of engaging pirates once in awhile, if I am very, very lucky, and we feel we've made some kind of decent prep to try something like that.  But most of the time, those guys want to tool around, so guess where their SPPs are?  They are almost all going to look like solo captains, because that's probably what they are.  So now, for a single outing... I'd have to try to drag everyone across hell's half acre (and hopefully not get sunk in the process), and then, maybe we can go sailing?  If they didn't get bored and wander off yet.  But then... they probably need to switch back afterwards too, because tooling around...

It is needlessly hard because now I need multiple people who are already highly devoted to sailing, not just on any crew, but MY crew, and they also have to have similar schedule to me.  It just it seems like a very, very good way to continue to keep people off the water, because if there is one thing that has been made clear by everyone from admin to pirates to regular sailors, it's that you're a bit of a sucker, and asking for trouble if you don't sail with a pretty decently well rounded crew complement.  

See, if you eventually do manage to build a hard crew (maybe because some of those solo captains end up deciding sailing in a real crew can be fun and has real advantages) great, and I think that kind of crew is always going to have a big advantage over other crews.  But I think not being able to work with what you have in a reasonable way (by shifting SPPs) makes that less likely to ever happen for most people, and needlessly hamstrings crews that are already at a big disadvantage exactly because they aren't experienced ship combatants, and haven't worked with each other.

Shirszae

I'll never understand people who say tediousness in a game is a good thing.

Cooper

I don't understand people saying seafaring gold rewards are okay currently, or that they shouldn't be increased.

More skill than bashing
More credit/lesson investment than bashing
More time than bashing
More coordination involved than bashing
More upkeep than bashing

Being able to only pull 30-40k an hour if you're with 2 other people, or less if you aren't, after investing all that time and money in it is a bit silly. That said, I think the recent(ish) and recent nerfs to bashing were pretty silly too. "Hey, you know those guys who have spend a few thousand dollars on bashing arties? Let's nerf 'em so they can't generate gold as fast. Even though if they had just bought credits and sold them on market, 90%+ would have more gold."

Kresslack

Shirszae said:

I'll never understand people who say tediousness in a game is a good thing.

I don't recall saying it was a good thing, simply that it is what it is. People want things to be simpler, easier to get, easier to use, so on and so forth. There's little value in things when everything comes easy and without a commitment.