Starmourn!!!

Korben

There are probably more people thinking 'I'll make a character in the new MUD and buy credits there' than 'I won't make a new character there because I can't use retirement credits on it'. In addition, the true-newb potential is bigger because this is a different genre and could attract a new public.

Kellonius

Korben said:

There are probably more people thinking 'I'll make a character in the new MUD and buy credits there' than 'I won't make a new character there because I can't use retirement credits on it'. In addition, the true-newb potential is bigger because this is a different genre and could attract a new public.

That is probably true. I'm just an old fogey that has attempted that in the past and it never worked out.

Kiskan

Kellonius said:

Korben said:

There are probably more people thinking 'I'll make a character in the new MUD and buy credits there' than 'I won't make a new character there because I can't use retirement credits on it'. In addition, the true-newb potential is bigger because this is a different genre and could attract a new public.

That is probably true. I'm just an old fogey that has attempted that in the past and it never worked out.

Most whales absolutely will not do this, because even without calculating it out, there is a sense that we've already spent a truly enormous sum on IRE games, and spending in those tiers again just feels downright exploitative.  We won't bite.  At best, we'll do what Kellonius and I have done in our non-primary games, and then we'll kind of get bored and leave.  (Eventually) allowing retirement to a game he's actually interested really is probably the best option to keep a guy like that.

Korben

'Eventually' being the key word. Once there's enough characters there who are comparable to the retirees, then the retirees won't unbalance things.

Atalkez

I'd wager people that are in that boat, largely only play because of their investment anyway. It's one thing to log in because you are having fun and aren't burnt out, but another thing entirely to log in because you have this massive investment that you don't want to just walk away from.

I've said this before, but the IRE model is vastly different from other games because of the continued expenses that make a massive difference, and the prices of them. You can't cap out, it's going to cost you an absolutely crazy amount of funds to actually get close; or it will take you an insane amount of time invested to reach that point through game-generated means. I don't think there is anyone that has completely Omni'd everything purely through the game without spending.


Honestly, I would like to see Starmourn move away from this model of continued exorbitant spending. If you compare the price point of IRE games vs any game on your phone, console, PC; IRE is more expensive by a pretty wide margin. While I understand that it isn't easy to keep a profitable MUD in 2016, at the same time we're competing with playtimes against these other games. Paying $500 for a text sword and a shield, versus buying an entire console and a two entire games - it's really a no brainer if you aren't hooked to IRE to begin with. Promotions and the like are one thing, but 'pay for X% increase' or 'pay to negate X' models are extremely outdated and only serve to keep a game alive, not build a new one. At least, not at the current price points of credits. Anyone that logs into Achaea for the first time, even with the credit and lesson packages, if they want to actually partake in all facets of the game (PK, Seafaring, Smithing, Enchanting, etc) then they're going to need to buy it or grind it. Since there is no real cap on anything (it is a living breathing world, afterall) there is never a saturation point of 'ok this is good' like you have in nearly every game. There is never a point where you can really 'catch' someone that started 10 years before you, dedicated to the grind. There's always something else you can add, and for most of us, we generally can justify a new purchase because of the past purchases. 'I already have 12000 credit escrow, I want a mask of lifevision, what's 500 more'? I just did this, actually, this isn't a made up scenario.

I can say with certainty, that I wouldn't ever dump the amount of money I have into Atalkez, into any other character on any other game. It's simply not going to happen. When I actually extrapolate the amount out, I cringe. Was/is it fun? Yes. Was/is it interesting enough to keep me coming back? Yes. Was it worth the price I've paid so far (and will continue to pay, because I'm hooked)? Absolutely not. I should have bought a brand new PC, all the steam games, a PS4 etc etc and had vastly more options on a day-to-day basis.

Kellonius

Atalkez said:

I'd wager people that are in that boat, largely only play because of their investment anyway. It's one thing to log in because you are having fun and aren't burnt out, but another thing entirely to log in because you have this massive investment that you don't want to just walk away from.

I've said this before, but the IRE model is vastly different from other games because of the continued expenses that make a massive difference, and the prices of them. You can't cap out, it's going to cost you an absolutely crazy amount of funds to actually get close; or it will take you an insane amount of time invested to reach that point through game-generated means. I don't think there is anyone that has completely Omni'd everything purely through the game without spending.


Honestly, I would like to see Starmourn move away from this model of continued exorbitant spending. If you compare the price point of IRE games vs any game on your phone, console, PC; IRE is more expensive by a pretty wide margin. While I understand that it isn't easy to keep a profitable MUD in 2016, at the same time we're competing with playtimes against these other games. Paying $500 for a text sword and a shield, versus buying an entire console and a two entire games - it's really a no brainer if you aren't hooked to IRE to begin with. Promotions and the like are one thing, but 'pay for X% increase' or 'pay to negate X' models are extremely outdated and only serve to keep a game alive, not build a new one. At least, not at the current price points of credits. Anyone that logs into Achaea for the first time, even with the credit and lesson packages, if they want to actually partake in all facets of the game (PK, Seafaring, Smithing, Enchanting, etc) then they're going to need to buy it or grind it. Since there is no real cap on anything (it is a living breathing world, afterall) there is never a saturation point of 'ok this is good' like you have in nearly every game. There is never a point where you can really 'catch' someone that started 10 years before you, dedicated to the grind. There's always something else you can add, and for most of us, we generally can justify a new purchase because of the past purchases. 'I already have 12000 credit escrow, I want a mask of lifevision, what's 500 more'? I just did this, actually, this isn't a made up scenario.

I can say with certainty, that I wouldn't ever dump the amount of money I have into Atalkez, into any other character on any other game. It's simply not going to happen. When I actually extrapolate the amount out, I cringe. Was/is it fun? Yes. Was/is it interesting enough to keep me coming back? Yes. Was it worth the price I've paid so far (and will continue to pay, because I'm hooked)? Absolutely not. I should have bought a brand new PC, all the steam games, a PS4 etc etc and had vastly more options on a day-to-day basis.

Agreed. I would vastly prefer a subscription model with a few pay for perks add ons(like beds in Achaea for privacy) rather than the current pay to win model we have now. I know that calling it "pay to win" is arguable, but its fairly clear at this point that a combination of specific artefacts make it nearly impossible for non-artefacted players to kill them. I digress. Subscription model would be highly agreeable for me for Starmourn rather than what we have now.

Atalkez

I'd like to see more in game bonuses and a subscription model. The membership right now could be used the same way but completely different set of things that you get for it.

Kill the hardest mob in the game for 24 hours of +5 constitution type of stuff.

Korben

Your argument about the value of competing games has been made many times, but ultimately IRE can't make credits cheaper (other than indirectly, with sales and Iron Elite) without veteran players feeling their investment has been devalued. If they offer cheaper credits in the new MUD, then there's a series of problems involving some kind of exchange rate between 'regular' credits and Starmourn credits. What they can easily do, however, is make credits go farther there, with skills taking fewer lessons to master and cheaper artefacts. We'll see.

Kiskan

I don't know that they actually can move that far away from their business model, even if they wanted to (as has been discussed quite a few times).  It's a legitimate argument that they simply can't have "reasonable" subscriptions and keep providing the kind of content that Achaea gets.  Because even Achaea isn't nearly big enough for that kind of model.  I'd argue that the other games actually need to look at what value they're providing for cost but that's a whole other discussion.  Achaea has real, devoted devs who consistently produce new, quality content, and that costs money.  Other than that, sure, Starmourn could be an opportunity to not rely so heavily on gigantic customers, and frankly, that is a situation where, if it were actually feasible, I think they should tell us to piss off if we bitched.  But I doubt it is.

I am just saying, if they want to retain their good old whales within the fold as the years go by, they're going to need to work with us, and we're going to need to feel we're being treated fairly.  In addition to having an investment so big you just know it's gigantic (many, many chars well over $10K US I'd say, quite a few far, far bigger than that), the whole desperate addict/drug dealer theme starts to play itself out (someone on Aetolia once characterized the player admin relationship in that way, and I think it's very apt for most players who aren't further along in their lifecycle).  We're still interested, we want to keep playing, but we're not so desperate that we'll do it at any cost on any terms. 

Atalkez

Korben said:

Your argument about the value of competing games has been made many times, but ultimately IRE can't make credits cheaper (other than indirectly, with sales and Iron Elite) without veteran players feeling their investment has been devalued. If they offer cheaper credits in the new MUD, then there's a series of problems involving some kind of exchange rate between 'regular' credits and Starmourn credits. What they can easily do, however, is make credits go farther there, with skills taking fewer lessons to master and cheaper artefacts. We'll see.

Sure, you're right.

There are plenty of options to make the system a better one than the current one. I'm not advocating for anything In particular, just saying as someone with a fairly substantial investment, I just can't see myself making it again and I know I'm not alone in that.

IRE will do better by keeping people like me hooked than hoping some new player turns into people like me. Purely my opinion, ofc.

Tahquil

It would be better if when Starmourn starts up you can't use retirement credits, however once a certain criteria is met (Starmourn being open for x time, reaching x level on your character, character being x old) you could then choose to transfer your retirement credits across. This lets people get use to the game, everyone starts on the same foothold, and then you can choose to supplement your character once they have developed.

Korben

I've always been in favor of cheaper credits, especially if you compare how much 'game power' you get per dollar in other pay-for-perks games. A model with smaller purchases from more people would probably work just as well as the current one, bringing in a larger playerbase which would have its own advantages. But I also understand IRE set its prices in other times, with another public, and it cannot easily change that now.

Kiskan

If they had in the range of 1000 actual subscriptions for a given game, possibly a bit more, possibly a bit less, a true subscription model starts to look viable - at least to a consumer casually crunching numbers with the awareness that we might not be quite right.  At the very least, I think you can say if you don't have that, it looks very hard to meet costs you and I can make not totally off the wall guesses about, and have some profit.  I think 1000 subscriptions (has to be reliably that, so have to try to guess how many cancellations, how many new subscribers) is a tall order for a MUD.  People and their graphics. 

Actually though, there's at least two paid devs working on Starmourn (I mean, I kind of hope that producer and lead builder aren't serving as interns, or in IRE lingo, "volunteers").  If they're not paying them absolute peanuts that's a bare minimum of 180K per year for the pair, for as long as Starmourn takes to become profitable itself (or not).  They'd have to budget for that, and it seems crazy to take out big loans here, so that has almost got to be Achaea money.  Now whether it's out of strictly company funds, or whether it's taken out of funds that are normally earmarked as pure profit (and just how profitable the game is), it's really hard for us to know for sure, especially since whale, and uh, mini-whale? purchases are sporadic, but Achaea is definitely, definitely still earning its keep I'd say and is probably being used to at least some extent as a cash cow here.  I mean, I think it is very safe to say that it earns its keep and then some. 

Atalkez

Obviously or the lights would have been off years ago!

Blujixapug

To me the big issue is that subscription-gating limits the playerbase. If you look at all the people playing Achaea who either never or only irregularly buy credits, I suspect that's 80% of players or more. If you imagine the game without 80% of its playerbase - ghost town. Empty cities, dead orgs. Very few people to sell to or trade with, to kill, to socialise and RP with, to show off your cool stuff to, to be better than.

It's like the issue you see with failing MOBAs and team-based FPS games where they don't reach that minimum population for critical mass, so game modes aren't played, queues are empty, and matchmaking takes forever. It becomes self-perpetuating because the people who do want to play the game have nobody to play it with.

Subscriptions work for big MMOs because they have that minimum population needed for it to be self-sustaining, and then they split it off across multiple servers. If the playerbase drops, they start shutting down servers, but the gameplay experience is still the same on the remaining servers.

Nazihk

You don't have to subscription gate it necessarily.

What if having an active Elite subscription made you count as tri-trans in your first profession on one character? You could learn the skills like normal if you wanted to, but there would be that subscription option to provide a cheaper entry rate.

Iniar

Kellonius said:

Using myself for example: ... The new game would reinvigorate my desire to play these games...

Flawed argument. Dangerous assumption. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.

Chael

For retirement credits, I suppose something to highlight is that MKOs closure did mean there are a few people floating around with their credits from there.

I've been holding on to mine in the hope I can use them in Starmourn, but if I'm told that I have to wait a year to spend them then that's kinda lame and would make it tempting to wait before moving, which in turn can hurt the game heavily because it provides an incentive to people to not jump across immediately. The only way this would be fair is if everyone can use them regardless of character age once the option opens up. 
 
It would also likely be beneficial to have some IRE vets moving across early on and allowing the use of retirement credits will help with this. Worst case, after a while people might move back to their games but that's not too bad because some of those retirement credits have been taken out of people's balances.


For other stuff

A true sub model seems like it would be a pretty bad direction, even graphical mmos typically now start as pay for perks or eventually transition back, the only exceptions that come to mind are FFXIV and WoW.

An elite enhancement could be interesting, there have been complaints elsewhere that elite has been almost forgotten to some degree.

Korben

Chael said:

elite has been almost forgotten to some degree.

It's already the best credit deal in the game, with lessons and an XP bonus on top. If there were a 'silver elite' level with an even better deal, it might eat into the money people use for regular credit purchases.

Xenomorph

When you're permashrubbed this is a lot less confusing or perhaps my status sets me apart and I -never- have to worry about shit. Only if perma means xmas time begging each year hoping some idiot lets me out of my cage 

Jonathin

Well hey guys, I said my information may be out of date. I heard it at the Michigan meet back in August or whenever it was. Personally, before I got all up in a huff, I'd ask again for confirmation.

Sarapis

Kiskan said:

If they had in the range of 1000 actual subscriptions for a given game, possibly a bit more, possibly a bit less, a true subscription model starts to look viable - at least to a consumer casually crunching numbers with the awareness that we might not be quite right.  At the very least, I think you can say if you don't have that, it looks very hard to meet costs you and I can make not totally off the wall guesses about, and have some profit.  I think 1000 subscriptions (has to be reliably that, so have to try to guess how many cancellations, how many new subscribers) is a tall order for a MUD. 

Subscription models are a fail from the get-go unless you're huge. Avoiding a mandatory subscription is literally the reason I invented the microtransaction model back in the 90s, and we wouldn't exist today without it.

Ahmet

@Sarapis said:
I invented the microtransaction model back in the 90s, 

Officer, arrest this man for the murder of every free-to-play MMO in recent history.

Sarapis

Ahmet said:

@Sarapis said:
I invented the microtransaction model back in the 90s, 

Officer, arrest this man for the murder of every free-to-play MMO in recent history.

Gotta admit, I don't quite follow you!

Alaskar

Jk. Mostly.

Kellonius

Iniar said:

Kellonius said:

Using myself for example: ... The new game would reinvigorate my desire to play these games...

Flawed argument. Dangerous assumption. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.

Except its not. I didn't spell it out in detail but I used myself as an example purposefully, because I know how I feel and I know exactly I'm losing interest in Achaea and exactly why MMOs and text based MMOs excite me in the first place. I never said this would be the case for everyone. I know myself well enough that I'm not assuming anything about, well, myself.

Chael

Korben said:

Chael said:

elite has been almost forgotten to some degree.

It's already the best credit deal in the game, with lessons and an XP bonus on top. If there were a 'silver elite' level with an even better deal, it might eat into the money people use for regular credit purchases.

The complaints I've seen elsewhere tend to be that it's not incorporated into monthly promotions and that there's a point where it just doesn't feel worth it so people cancel it. The forgotten I guess is that it doesn't seem referenced except during promotions that it will stack with, so having a look over it and how it interacts with things like the more common promotions would be nice, even if that then involves levels. Silver might guarantee you something in most monthly promotions, this month for example you might get a stocking.

Sarapis

Alaskar said:

Jk. Mostly.

I actually hate the word microtransaction. I prefer to call them virtual goods, but cash shop and microtransaction seems more popular these days.