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PvE Adjustments

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  • IsmayIsmay
    Back many moons ago, I bashed to dragon. I can tell a huge difference between now and then. Then, bashing was (somewhat) enjoyable. Now, I have to force myself to bash 30 min each time I login. Maybe it's the class I'm playing - monk. Bashing just seems so much slower now than it used to be. It's a chore, really.

    Of course, this is just my own opinion. Some of you may like it better now. I don't.

    And I could -never- think of you as an ass, @Anedhel! You're one of the good ones. :p
    Give us -real- shop logs! Not another misinterpretation of features we ask for, turned into something that either doesn't help at all, or doesn't remotely resemble what we wanted to begin with.

    Thanks!

    Current position of some of the playerbase, instead of expressing a desire to fix problems:

    Vhaynna: "Honest question - if you don't like Achaea or the current admin, why do you even bother playing?"


  • CynlaelCynlael
    Bashing to dragon is definitely quicker now, than it was previously. Even moreso if you choose to get rare minerals to help the grind, and lucky elixir.

  • AnedhelAnedhel
    You should get a bashing pal. It's so so so much better with a friend (and more rewarding, if you work well together and can hunt slightly more dangerous stuff than you ought to be bashing!) :O
  • SenaSena
    Ismay said:
    Back many moons ago, I bashed to dragon. I can tell a huge difference between now and then. Then, bashing was (somewhat) enjoyable. Now, I have to force myself to bash 30 min each time I login. Maybe it's the class I'm playing - monk. Bashing just seems so much slower now than it used to be. It's a chore, really.
    Is that because of the battlerage changes, or the massive nerf to monk damage (it was reduced by about 40% in July 2014)?
  • PenwizePenwize
    Monk is a poor choice to estimate the bashing changes with.  Monk used to be top-tier bashing, and now it's bottom-tier.  Its damage was severely nerfed a while back, and it has not recovered at all.  Monk used to be one of the most interesting classes to bash with because of all the active ways you could defend or modify your defense to suit the moment without draining yourself of mana or willpower.  It still has all of that, but struggles with damage, so in the end ... why bother with it, when you could just switch to any other class and lean on one attack alias?
  • MinifieMinifie
    Penwize said:
    Monk is a poor choice to estimate the bashing changes with.  Monk used to be top-tier bashing, and now it's bottom-tier.  Its damage was severely nerfed a while back, and it has not recovered at all.  Monk used to be one of the most interesting classes to bash with because of all the active ways you could defend or modify your defense to suit the moment without draining yourself of mana or willpower.  It still has all of that, but struggles with damage, so in the end ... why bother with it, when you could just switch to any other class and lean on one attack alias?
    This is perfectly apt, monk's damage WAS too high, but the tools available to monks was amazing. I don't think lifting the damage to middle of the road will be too horrifying to balance, but at the minute it takes WAY too long to kill something as monk to deal with all the nifty hunting tools available to them.
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna be
    I dunno, I...

    Lucianus said:
    They did apply differently for each spec, but the general direction in the application is all in the direction of nerfing damage. I personally didn't feel 2-hand needed it. Our attacks are slow, we don't have SOA, and we don't have a chance to crit twice like the dual wielding specs. So 2-handers pretty much got the short end of the stick in that pve change for knights. :/
    Wha...
    Our attacks are slow, we don't have SOA, and we don't have a chance to crit twice like the dual wielding specs.
    Could it possibly be...
    Lucianus said:
    don't have a chance to crit twice like the dual wielding specs
    It is... he said it...

    How many times does this have to be explained on the forums?

    u.u

    (yes yes for those of you lubricating your typewriters for a condescending response i understand overkill disparity but come on at least complain about that aspect of it, don't complain about 'double the crits' cos that just makes you sound wrong)
    Huh. Neat.
  • ValkynValkyn
    I much prefer hunting post battlerage to before. Group hunting is actually feasible, and I get use out of higher crits in solo too.

  • LucianusLucianus
    Ahmet said:
    I dunno, I...

    Lucianus said:
    They did apply differently for each spec, but the general direction in the application is all in the direction of nerfing damage. I personally didn't feel 2-hand needed it. Our attacks are slow, we don't have SOA, and we don't have a chance to crit twice like the dual wielding specs. So 2-handers pretty much got the short end of the stick in that pve change for knights. :/
    Wha...
    Our attacks are slow, we don't have SOA, and we don't have a chance to crit twice like the dual wielding specs.
    Could it possibly be...
    Lucianus said:
    don't have a chance to crit twice like the dual wielding specs
    It is... he said it...

    How many times does this have to be explained on the forums?

    u.u

    (yes yes for those of you lubricating your typewriters for a condescending response i understand overkill disparity but come on at least complain about that aspect of it, don't complain about 'double the crits' cos that just makes you sound wrong)
    How is a double crit a reason to complain? It's literally the main advantage for primary bashing attacks are comprised of multiple weaker attacks.

    You viciously jab a Soulpiercer into an ogre sentry.
    You have scored a CRITICAL hit!
    The songblessing upon the rapier sings out with a piercing high note.
    You have scored a CRITICAL hit!
    03:06:31.422 5133h, 5000m, 23273e, 20640w Shin:[] ecdbk 66.3%xp- Target: Alaran [ST:
    sentry39892 92% Rage:3]
    You have recovered balance on all limbs. (1.734s)
    03:06:33.156 5133h, 5000m, 23280e, 20640w Shin:[] excdbk 66.3%xp- Target: Alaran [ST: sentry39892 92% Rage:3]
    Lightning-quick, you jab an ogre sentry with a Soulpiercer.
    You have scored a CRITICAL hit!
    The songblessing upon the rapier sings out with a piercing high note.
    You have scored an ANNIHILATINGLY POWERFUL CRITICAL hit!
    03:06:33.241 5133h, 5000m, 23273e, 20640w Shin:[] ecdbk 66.3%xp-
    Target: Alaran [ST: sentry39892 75% Rage:6]

    It's the main reason why I prefer hunting in Bard over Blademaster and 2-handed Runie. It's a massive crit rate with the speed of the balance and the number of times you attack per balance. It's always something you should consider when determining the bashing viably of a class. When you're walking with 40% crit or more with Aim to Kill. It's amazing.
    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna be
    You don't crit any more or less than someone with two attacks, or a faster balance.

    As I said, yes there's a difference when it comes to overkill values, and if you want to complain you should complain about that, not some mystical difference in crit rate that isn't actually there.

    On the subject of overkill though, I saw this mentioned way back and don't remember what the exact response was, either a 'not right now' or a 'not ever', but would it be possible to implement some sort of overkill damage system? I.e. if you hit something for way harder than it has health left, a portion of it is stored for a few moments and will transfer to your next hit, or expire some seconds down the line if you're not attacking anything.
    Huh. Neat.
  • LucianusLucianus
    Here's another example of why bashing attacks that are comprised of two or more attacks is an advantage:

    Lightning-quick, you jab an orc soldier with a Soulpiercer.
    You have scored an ANNIHILATINGLY POWERFUL CRITICAL hit!
    The songblessing upon the rapier sings out with a piercing high note.
    You have scored a CRUSHING CRITICAL hit!
    03:30:44.454 5607h, 4969m, 23270e, 20549w Shin:[] edbk 69%xp- Target: Alaran [ST: orc14948 40% Rage:36]
    har
    call harmonics
    You dash off the clarion call of the wanderer, summoning your harmonics to you.
    03:30:44.819 5607h, 4969m, 23270e, 20549w Shin:[] dbk 69%xp- Target: Alaran [ST: orc14948 40% Rage:36]
    Pivoting quickly, an orc soldier slashes into you with his axe, sending a trail of dark blood splattering across the ground.
    03:30:44.921 5116h, 4969m, 23270e, 20549w Shin:[] dbk 69%xp- Target: Alaran [ST: orc14948 40% Rage:36] (-491h, 8.8%)
    You use your powerful voice to distract an orc soldier with a ululating howl before stepping in with a vicious slash.
    03:30:45.017 5116h, 4969m, 23270e, 20549w Shin:[] dbk 69%xp- Target: Alaran [ST: orc14948 30% Rage:0]
    You can use another Battlerage ability again, but none of your abilities are currently available.
    03:30:45.814 5396h, 5000m, 23270e, 20549w Shin:[] dbk 69%xp- Target: Alaran [ST: orc14948 30% Rage:0] (+280h, 5.0%, +31m, 0.
    6%)
    You have recovered balance on all limbs. (1.807s)
    03:30:46.261 5607h, 5000m, 23280e, 20573w Shin:[] xdbk 69%xp- Target: Alaran [ST: orc14948 30% Rage:0] (+211h, 3.8%)
    You bleed 26 health.
    03:30:46.924 5581h, 4986m, 23280e, 20569w Shin:[] xdbk 69%xp- Target: Alaran [ST: orc14948 30% Rage:0] (-26h, 0.5%, -14m, 0.
    3%)
    First faintly, and then full force, the notes of your several harmonics respond to your call.
    03:30:47.812 5581h, 4986m, 23280e, 20569w Shin:[] xdbk 69%xp- Target: Alaran [ST: orc14948 30% Rage:0]
    With a fierce overhead swing, an orc soldier hacks his massive, gleaming axe into your side.
    03:30:47.907 5191h, 4986m, 23280e, 20569w Shin:[] xdbk 69%xp- Target: Alaran [ST: orc14948 30% Rage:0] (-390h, 7.0%)
    You have recovered equilibrium. (3.295s)
    03:30:48.115 5191h, 4986m, 23280e, 20569w Shin:[] exdbk 69%xp- Target: Alaran [ST: orc14948 30% Rage:0]
    You viciously jab a Soulpiercer into an orc soldier.
    You have scored an OBLITERATING CRITICAL hit!
    The songblessing upon the rapier sings out with a piercing high note.
    You have scored a CRITICAL hit
    !03:30:48.215 5191h, 4986m, 23273e, 20569w Shin:[] edbk 69%xp- Target: Alaran [ST: orc14948 0%
    Rage:4]
    You have recovered balance on all limbs. (1.663s)
    03:30:49.878 5191h, 4986m, 23280e, 20569w Shin:[] exdbk 69%xp- Target: Alaran [ST: orc14948 0% Rage:4]
    You viciously jab a Soulpiercer into an orc soldier.
    You have scored a CRITICAL hit!
    You have slain an orc soldier, retrieving the corpse.
    A large pile of sovereigns spills from the corpse.

    Quite literally outclasses my Blademaster in hunting, and because I'm only attacking every 2.8 seconds with my 2-hand Runie. I come across instances of higher critical attacks (crushing criticals or greater) a lot less.

    Right now I'm seriously considering the possibility of swapping my Runewarden's 2-handed specialization to dual wield cutting. Sure I'll end up doing around 4%-5% damage per double slash. But the balance recovery speed will be around 1.7s and those sweet sweet crits is worth the trade-off of lugging a big slow weapon around for hunting.
    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.
  • LucianusLucianus
    Ahmet said:
    You don't crit any more or less than someone with two attacks, or a faster balance.

    As I said, yes there's a difference when it comes to overkill values, and if you want to complain you should complain about that, not some mystical difference in crit rate that isn't actually there.

    On the subject of overkill though, I saw this mentioned way back and don't remember what the exact response was, either a 'not right now' or a 'not ever', but would it be possible to implement some sort of overkill damage system? I.e. if you hit something for way harder than it has health left, a portion of it is stored for a few moments and will transfer to your next hit, or expire some seconds down the line if you're not attacking anything.
    I agree with Overkill though. In Lusty. We had an overkill system where any excess of damage done to a mob was transferred to another. It helped with Monk Bashing there a ton.
    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna be
    edited April 2016
    Again I'm not quite sure you understand what I'm saying. You still crit at the same rate. You're technically LOSING some damage, because the obliterating doesn't apply to the songblessing and the songblessing crits vice versa (oh the number of times I've WSC on accentato u.u), but you're regaining that damage in the instances where single, more powerful attacks would waste damage with overkills. Whether or not those values of damage lost even out or one comes ahead depends on the health pools of what you're hunting.

    EDIT: To clarify, you're technically not -losing- damage, as in a perfect spread you would crit those same crits on the other attacks in the same span, but your crits are less effective, overall.

    It's nice to see 'more' crits, but you're not really doing any more than someone with just one attack instead of two.
    Huh. Neat.
  • AnedhelAnedhel
    I understand what you're saying, but people with faster hits tend to get to the 'big' criticals quicker, which means less time spent bashing overall. Unless I guess you're uber lucky and get only ever big criticals or something (no accounting for RNGesus).
  • LucianusLucianus
    edited April 2016
    And yeah, I agree that the crit rate is the same regardless of the weapon spec or bashing attack you use. If your general crit rate is a 40%, it remains that way whether you are a 2-hander or a DWC.

    What I'm banking on though... is that even though the crits are weaker with DWC, at least I get one critical off each doubleslash from the 40% roll on whether or not you will crit per attack. They're often weakass crits, but sometimes RNGesus (Praise be!) decides today is a good day, and your all crits shall be consistently be one of those annihilating and world-shattering ones.

    EDIT: And I run one of those 15 str/15 int Bard builds w/ level 3 collar. So both the damage from jab and the accentato are decent. Artie'd Bard bashing is... very interesting.
    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.
  • SenaSena
    Anedhel said:
    I understand what you're saying, but people with faster hits tend to get to the 'big' criticals quicker, which means less time spent bashing overall. Unless I guess you're uber lucky and get only ever big criticals or something (no accounting for RNGesus).
    With a low critical chance (like below level 80), where higher crits are rare, that's probably the case. With a good crit rate though, criticals are common enough even at 4s per attack that it's not a big difference.
  • AntoniusAntonius
    Accentato damage on denizens has nothing to do with intelligence and collar, it's purely 25% of jab damage.

    Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files

  • LucianusLucianus
    Antonius said:
    Accentato damage on denizens has nothing to do with intelligence and collar, it's purely 25% of jab damage.

    So going full strength is better? :/

    Bleh... all that testing watching the damage go up and down with the collar on players is a waste. I'm stupid. Meh!
    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.
  • AntoniusAntonius

    If you're splitting your spec and traits to balance strength and intelligence, yes. I generally prefer a full constitution spec and trait focus since Bard scales amazingly well on max health when it comes to its defence, and just let level three gauntlets boost me to 16 strength.

    Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files

  • DochithaDochitha
    @Anedhel is right, 2-person hunting is really optimal.
  • FrederichFrederich
    Dochitha said:
    @Anedhel is right, 2-person hunting is really optimal.
    What these people said.

    While I can't hunt Dun Fort alone as a monk because monks can't fight jack shit that stacks at level 82 because.. reasons.  Whenever I'm teamed up with @Persephonia I can actually manage it.  We both take the attacks of one of the orcs, generally by me pissing one off.. then I swap to attacking the one on her.  She's, generally, in a consistent damage lead ahead of me due to #ArtiedMagi life... but sometimes I overtake her.  Needless to say, as a monk, I can fight ONE enemy semi-fine, it's just 2 quickly outpaces me.  She also gives Sensitivity, and I give her clumsy which makes for REALLY good bashing.

    Especially in cases where I wait a bit or save up my BR for about 2 combos, a tornado kick, then mind blast.  It really does a lot of damage, and after those two combos, it means the timer on Sensitivity is almost up so we get the most out of the battlerage without actually ending it instantly.  I only use clumsy on occasion, namely whenever I'm getting overrun.
  • MizikMizik
    Telendrieth said:
    Mizik said:
    You guys are unbelievable.
    Without an autobashing script, I can't really stop and respond to a few people, or check on chats without risking dropping my rage.
    Shit you're right. This probably want taken into consideration when balancing the game. 

    Agreed to disagree.
    image
  • KryptonKrypton shi-Khurena
    edited April 2016
    ANNOUNCE #4538 said:
    Druid - Damage decrease (Tiny)
    ANNOUNCE #4539 said:
    Metamorphosis
    -------------
    * MAUL damage to denizens has been increased.
    :#? 
  • EldEld
    Aerek said:
    I took BM out for a spin on the lower level of Dun fortress. Definitely improved. For some purely anecdotal numbers, (12 STR, level 101, human crit bonus) damage ranges from 2-3% in Thyr to 3-4% in Arash against orc soldiers/guards/ogre knights. Honestly, Sanya's too middle of the road to be good anymore, and the damage in Arash, while higher, still doesn't justify the extra damage you take. Would say Thyr and Mir are the best stances now, Thyr if you can take the damage, Mir if you can't. They're both fairly decent, and their damage is pretty similar, it's just trading speed vs defense.


    I don't understand your comment about Sanya. The stances just increase or decrease damage and balance times by some percentage, so unless this change applies differently to the different stances, Sanya should still be the best dps other than Arash, by a considerable margin. Unless you're somehow getting enough benefit out of the faster balance to make up for the lost dps, I don't see why Thyr would be any more favorable than it was before the change.
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USA
    Because I found the rebalanced difference of all stances' damage was negligible in the context of hunting, while the speed/defense difference between the stances was not. Given the vagueness of denizen damage, I noted Sanya doing "about" 3%, and Thyr also dealing "about" 3%. I could tell Thyr was a little less, sure, and on paper, maybe Sanya is still be the best, but in practice, it was taking roughly the same number of hits to kill an orc either way, except Thyr was significantly faster, and Mir was significantly more resistant.

    Feel free to do your own testing, my cursory test was by no means scientific, I would only caution against automatically assuming Stances operate in bashing the same way they do in PvP anymore. I think most bashing attacks have been disconnected in whole or in part from their underlying PvP systems and balanced on their own throughout these bashing changes. (Weapon damage no longer determines denizen damage for knights, for example, when that was once a 1:1 relationship. Now, DSL with 2x 159-damage axes does less damage than Slaughter with a 182-damage warhammer, at least before this last round of changes.) So you could be right, or Stances' effects on bashing damage might not mirror effects in PvP anymore.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
  • SenaSena
    The testing we did with stances was for PvE specifically. And the damage and speed modifiers are percentages, so the relative benefit shouldn't really change no matter how the damage changes; whether drawslash damage is 100 or 1000, Sanya's DPS should still be about 14% higher than Thyr's (specifically, Sanya should have about 25% higher damage than Thyr, Thyr should be about 10% faster than Sanya).
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USA
    I don't bash, guys, you're debating bashing numbers with the wrong guy. I hunted one location, saw the damage for Thyr/Mir/Sanya was not discernibly different against the 3 denizens I hit, made a judgement call based on that perception, and reported back the purely anecdotal experience because someone asked. Bottom line, I found BM hunting a lot better than it was when I first tried it in October of 2015. If you want more detail than that, or if you want to prove the testing you've already done is still accurate, you're going to have to try it for yourself.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
  • EldEld
    Aerek said:
    Because I found the rebalanced difference of all stances' damage was negligible in the context of hunting, while the speed/defense difference between the stances was not. Given the vagueness of denizen damage, I noted Sanya doing "about" 3%, and Thyr also dealing "about" 3%. I could tell Thyr was a little less, sure, and on paper, maybe Sanya is still be the best, but in practice, it was taking roughly the same number of hits to kill an orc either way, except Thyr was significantly faster, and Mir was significantly more resistant.

    Feel free to do your own testing, my cursory test was by no means scientific, I would only caution against automatically assuming Stances operate in bashing the same way they do in PvP anymore. I think most bashing attacks have been disconnected in whole or in part from their underlying PvP systems and balanced on their own throughout these bashing changes. (Weapon damage no longer determines denizen damage for knights, for example, when that was once a 1:1 relationship. Now, DSL with 2x 159-damage axes does less damage than Slaughter with a 182-damage warhammer, at least before this last round of changes.) So you could be right, or Stances' effects on bashing damage might not mirror effects in PvP anymore.
    Ah, yeah, that makes more sense. On average, sanya should be about 10% faster than thyr, which I could see being little enough that you wouldn't notice it much over a few denizens, but still enough to add up over time. But if that helps significantly with survivability, or even just by making bashing more tolerable psychologically, it could well be preferable for you on those grounds, even if it's slightly worse overall by objective measures. I am curious now about how big the difference in crit overkill is actually likely to be, though. Maybe I'll play with the math a bit more at some point.

    As for the behavior of stances being the same in PvP and pve, none of my statements about their effects are based on PvP testing, since testing PvP damage in any detail is too complicated to be worth it; it's all based on falcons and practice dummies (although the results of my limb damage testing have all been consistent with the effects being the same there). Granted, I haven't done any detailed damage testing post battlerage, but if be a bit surprised if that aspect of the mechanics had changed. For one thing, the balancing adjustments in general, at least in that initial round, seem to have just been to base damage, rather than the details of other modifiers. For another, the damage modifiers for the stances all come in the same increments as the ones for bands; I haven't heard anything about changes to how bands work, and changing how the mechanics work on that fundamental a level seems likely to be more work than would have been worth it from the perspective of the rebalancing project.
  • TelendriethTelendrieth
    Also, someone mentioned overkill.
    Survival skill - Overkill: When a critical would deal more damage than required to kill a mob, you gain a rush of energy lasting 15 seconds. The excess damage is applied on the next strike upon a denizen within that time.

    A wonderful skill from Aetolia.



  • LucianusLucianus
    edited April 2016
    Telendrieth said:
    Also, someone mentioned overkill.
    Survival skill - Overkill: When a critical would deal more damage than required to kill a mob, you gain a rush of energy lasting 15 seconds. The excess damage is applied on the next strike upon a denizen within that time.

    A wonderful skill from Aetolia.



    Yeah, Lusty has that too. Exact same thing. It's really nice for those on the extreme ends of the bashing attack spectrum (those who hit slow and heavy, but wastes those hard crits on mobs at low hp % and those who do a lot of small and fast hits and end up landing a big crit as the killing blow).

    I wonder if Imperian has that implemented as well... I know for sure MKO does not have it.
    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.
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