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PvE Adjustments

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  • PenwizePenwize
    Dortheron said:
    Frederich said:
    Telendrieth said:

    Sena said:
    These changes seem to be based on the assumption that the previous round of changes (bringing all the classes to about the same level of DPS) was successful, which it very much was not, the previous round of changes still seemed half-finished to me.

    Apostate, for example, already had below-average damage which their tankiness already didn't make up for, but they got nerfed further. Bard already had well above-average damage (above-average unartied, one of the best classes by far with a Soulpiercer and a couple defensive arties) and got buffed further.

    Edit: I missed the upcoming canticle change, so the bard change might be fine after that.
    I'm glad I'm not the only one who realizes that the bashing was far from fixed.

    Personally, and I know this is -far- from IRE's style. I wish we'd start raising everyone instead of cutting people down. I went Runie as my second class because I both loathe the feel of battlerage bashing, and serpent bashing was mind numbingly atrocious. People are going the classes that can handle things better because it makes bashing a little more tolerable. The goal should be to try and raise every class to that level.

    I didn't want to post without actually testing it first, and yeah. The duo orc rooms in Dun, I used to do about 4-5% per combo to. I'm now doing 2% (I noticed one only did 1%, but I'll chalk that up to just a random happenstance.). I wouldn't be so pissed off if Achaea offered other ways to earn experience, but so far it's one of the few games to lock it almost entirely behind bashing.
    Hey, welcome to the Monk life of only being able to do 2-3% per combo (without crits) to duo orc rooms in Dun...  You get all of the survivability... and we do a little bit more damage!

    Now all monks need is to be able to actually wear some god damn armour or have a kaido defense skill to reduce damage from non-PVP damage sources and we'll be friggin golden.  Seriously, I still can't fight fire wyrms because I'm taking 2.5k-3k from one of their talon swipes.  #PleaseTectonSaveMeFromThisHell
    If I remember right Evade block (EVB) in Tekura is also suppose to work vs denizens now, but I almost never use it because I forget. How are you taking so much damage from wyrms though? I don't remember them ever being that difficult (except the Wyrm Lord killing you in one shot because the jerk you're following wasn't paying attention to where they were going).
    Bodyblock (BDB), not evadeblock, works against denizens now, yeah.
  • SarathaiSarathai
    These changes seem to have ensured that I will never bash as Druid again. Damage nerf was the very last thing it could have needed.
    - (Eleusis): Ellodin says, "The Fissure of Echoes is Sarathai's happy place."
    - With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
    - (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
    - Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
    - Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."



  • TelendriethTelendrieth
    Sarathai said:
    These changes seem to have ensured that I will never bash as Druid again. Damage nerf was the very last thing it could have needed.
    I saw that and have to agree. Druid bashing is rough as butts. So either you and I are missing something rather huge about Druid hunting, or there was a rather silly oversight.
  • IlessiaIlessia
    Tolan said:
    At this point, might as well get rid of canticle overall. Why bother with an ability that has zero effect on the caster?
    Classically Bards have always been a support class in gaming. Not to say they must reflect the classical wisdom but anything that actually emphasizes support and team play is healthy for a game. If the numbers were right it could even get a buff or new effect. 

    I'm all for anything that denies every individual from being their own swiss army knife. That's never necessary.
  • JeslynJeslyn United States
    Mage should have gotten more than a small damage increase. Statted at 17-18 int and it was still slow as molasses even when I borrowed arties, god forbid you forgot even one of your defenses.

    I don't understand why Druid got a damage decrease, even if it was a tiny one. Wyvern isn't even Godmode for bashing.

    Priest I can understand for a damage decrease, anyone know how much of a decrease it got?
  • DortheronDortheron
    Penwize said:
    Dortheron said:
    Frederich said:
    Telendrieth said:

    Sena said:
    These changes seem to be based on the assumption that the previous round of changes (bringing all the classes to about the same level of DPS) was successful, which it very much was not, the previous round of changes still seemed half-finished to me.

    Apostate, for example, already had below-average damage which their tankiness already didn't make up for, but they got nerfed further. Bard already had well above-average damage (above-average unartied, one of the best classes by far with a Soulpiercer and a couple defensive arties) and got buffed further.

    Edit: I missed the upcoming canticle change, so the bard change might be fine after that.
    I'm glad I'm not the only one who realizes that the bashing was far from fixed.

    Personally, and I know this is -far- from IRE's style. I wish we'd start raising everyone instead of cutting people down. I went Runie as my second class because I both loathe the feel of battlerage bashing, and serpent bashing was mind numbingly atrocious. People are going the classes that can handle things better because it makes bashing a little more tolerable. The goal should be to try and raise every class to that level.

    I didn't want to post without actually testing it first, and yeah. The duo orc rooms in Dun, I used to do about 4-5% per combo to. I'm now doing 2% (I noticed one only did 1%, but I'll chalk that up to just a random happenstance.). I wouldn't be so pissed off if Achaea offered other ways to earn experience, but so far it's one of the few games to lock it almost entirely behind bashing.
    Hey, welcome to the Monk life of only being able to do 2-3% per combo (without crits) to duo orc rooms in Dun...  You get all of the survivability... and we do a little bit more damage!

    Now all monks need is to be able to actually wear some god damn armour or have a kaido defense skill to reduce damage from non-PVP damage sources and we'll be friggin golden.  Seriously, I still can't fight fire wyrms because I'm taking 2.5k-3k from one of their talon swipes.  #PleaseTectonSaveMeFromThisHell
    If I remember right Evade block (EVB) in Tekura is also suppose to work vs denizens now, but I almost never use it because I forget. How are you taking so much damage from wyrms though? I don't remember them ever being that difficult (except the Wyrm Lord killing you in one shot because the jerk you're following wasn't paying attention to where they were going).
    Bodyblock (BDB), not evadeblock, works against denizens now, yeah.
    I checked and you're right @Penwize, it's bodyblock not evadeblock. Well, that was a waste of mana the few times I used it

    You know, that one thing at that one place, with that one person.

    Yea, that one!
  • AesgarAesgar
    Mizik said:
    As an SnB Runewarden I still shred through denizens while being damage immune. And that's with a buckler. With SoA I truly feel like the defense spec  B)

    I feel no discernible loss in dps.
    Shhhh! We don't want this to be known

    (I haven't tried it yet. Might be different for me not being a dragon)
  • SarathaiSarathai
    edited April 2016
    Latest list of changes has me very confused.

    Announce 4538: "Druid - Damage decrease (Tiny)"
    Announce 4539: "MAUL damage to denizens has been increased."

    So Druid damage as a whole goes down (which I still disagree with) while Maul goes up? All that should do is make it harder for novice/lowbie/midbie players to get anything done, because they have to rely on Claw until they can get to Maul (and Druid doesn't have an alternate bashing attack).

     @Tecton can you provide further information?
    - (Eleusis): Ellodin says, "The Fissure of Echoes is Sarathai's happy place."
    - With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
    - (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
    - Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
    - Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."



  • TectonTecton The Garden of the Gods
    edited April 2016
    The changes earlier today were whole class adjustments to overall damage output based on defensive capabilities. The maul change was one to tweak the damage of that particular ability up to be in (unadjusted) parity with all of the class abilities.
  • AesgarAesgar
    2 Quisalis guards and 2 Initiates were easily doable before the changes with one "hit and run". Now it takes 3-4.

    Definitely gonna slow me down but I can't really complain. It will be fun to have everyone on a level playing field so to speak. 
  • TolanTolan
    edited April 2016
    The damage buff bards got is nowhere even remotely close to the nerf from no canticle. My dps(with a SP) has significantly dropped, it in fact feels like the damage was decreased. I'm finding myself fighting things(not really hard things either) a lot longer than I use to, just because the lack of speed. Not really something I want to deal with, since I primarily hunt alone.
  • AylekAylek
    What was canticles speed boost? 10%?
  • AntoniusAntonius
    Sounds about right. Basically the same as having a second Nimble trait.

    Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files

  • LucianusLucianus
    They could have done something more comprehesive like add a diminishing return to balance reduction buffs to address the issue with canticle and other possible stacking methods. Pretty sure there will be whining about other classes getting 1.5 sec speeds when ganking with bards until the song just disappears from the game completely. Fix + pitiful pve damage buff feels more reactionary than something that was carefully thought out. Meh. 
    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.
  • KinilanKinilan
    Soooooo time was spent making everything the same and then things were made uneven again.
  • SynbiosSynbios
    So...any numbers on BM hunting? 

  • AylekAylek
    30 speed
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USA
    I took BM out for a spin on the lower level of Dun fortress. Definitely improved. For some purely anecdotal numbers, (12 STR, level 101, human crit bonus) damage ranges from 2-3% in Thyr to 3-4% in Arash against orc soldiers/guards/ogre knights. Honestly, Sanya's too middle of the road to be good anymore, and the damage in Arash, while higher, still doesn't justify the extra damage you take. Would say Thyr and Mir are the best stances now, Thyr if you can take the damage, Mir if you can't. They're both fairly decent, and their damage is pretty similar, it's just trading speed vs defense.

    I don't think BM hunting is "good", no one's ever going to switch to BM for that reason, but if you are BM, I think you can now hunt without wishing sweet merciful death would come now and save you from this boredom. (at least with my crit rate) I still had to hit-and-run the orc guards and ogres a bit, even as a level 101 BM, but I could do it and it didn't take me an unreasonable amount of time, which is more than I could say before.

    That said, the more research I see/hear/do, the more convinced I am BM benefits from STR more than most classes in this game. (Which makes complete sense, to try and discourage people from just speccing CON all the way) Possible that with more STR, hunting would actually be pretty good for BM, as long as you still had enough health to survive.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
  • BorranBorran
    I like that adjustments are being made to try to balance the classes. Even if the balancing may tip the scales in the opposite direction for a while, at least we're getting closer to a healthy state.

  • CooperCooper
    Tried out serpent with a level 3 lash and 17 dex and level 2 healing set + runes.

    Holy god it was fast, but I still prefer dragon. I could just barely tank 1 sidhe or unsidhe, was very open to any sort of damage gank.

    I can kill 3 sidhe at once in dragon without worrying. 

    Would estimate artied serpent to be like 30-40% faster at killing than dragon, but dragon level areas are out of the question unless you are level 2-3 artied.

    Haven't tested s&b infernal because it will probably make me want to cry. 

  • SynbiosSynbios
    Aerek said:
    I took BM out for a spin on the lower level of Dun fortress. Definitely improved. For some purely anecdotal numbers, (12 STR, level 101, human crit bonus) damage ranges from 2-3% in Thyr to 3-4% in Arash against orc soldiers/guards/ogre knights.
    Do you have a comparison between that and pre-'buff'ed BM bashing?

  • TolanTolan
    So I guess I now need to find a way to reset my traits, and get nimble.
  • AereidhnaAereidhna Dallas
    A free trait/race spec reset would have been nice considering that this is going to make bashing difficult for some people. I usually group/pair hunt with lower levels in lesserform because of defend, but reconsidering that now.
  • FarrahFarrah
    Tolan said:
    So I guess I now need to find a way to reset my traits, and get nimble.
    Why would you not already be nimble as bard...?
  • TolanTolan
    edited April 2016
    Farrah said:
    Tolan said:
    So I guess I now need to find a way to reset my traits, and get nimble.
    Why would you not already be nimble as bard...?
    Why would I pick something that gives me less resistance to incoming damage as a class race that already doesn't wear armour, when I have canticle?
  • AtalkezAtalkez
    Tolan said:
    Farrah said:
    Tolan said:
    So I guess I now need to find a way to reset my traits, and get nimble.
    Why would you not already be nimble as bard...?
    Why would I pick something that gives me less resistance to incoming damage as a class race that already doesn't wear armour, when I have canticle?
    Because Tune more than makes up for that small drop in resistance. It's really insignificant. 

    You hurt your bashing speed by going QW, especially with canticle still helping the Bard, because most of the things Bard does is balance not EQ. You got faster harmonics, but that's about it, I think?

    Definitely should be Nimble as a balance class.




    Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USA
    Synbios said:
    Aerek said:
    I took BM out for a spin on the lower level of Dun fortress. Definitely improved. For some purely anecdotal numbers, (12 STR, level 101, human crit bonus) damage ranges from 2-3% in Thyr to 3-4% in Arash against orc soldiers/guards/ogre knights.
    Do you have a comparison between that and pre-'buff'ed BM bashing?
    My effective pre-buff BM hunting damage was 0%-0%, because I tried it when Multiclass first came out, and it was so awful I refused to do it again. I don't trust my memory to give unbiased estimates, it was just very, very bad, and this is much better.

    Tolan said:
    Farrah said:
    Tolan said:
    So I guess I now need to find a way to reset my traits, and get nimble.
    Why would you not already be nimble as bard...?
    Why would I pick something that gives me less resistance to incoming damage as a class race that already doesn't wear armour, when I have canticle?
    Because when your a class that wears no armour and has essentially 0 resistances, Nimble is basically free. Also because speed = dps. I get that you're not a combatant, but even as a hunter, the extra damage you take pales in comparison to the extra damage you deal over time.

    And there's a way to reset traits. It's called a gilded page. You own a $500 text sword and I'm betting that's not all, so I'm sure it's within your reach.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
  • XinnaXinna
    Yeah, nimble hurts less if you have low armour, not more. And canticle doesn't make nimble better or worse. You used to get a benefit from both. It's like saying why buy a SP when I already have canticle? More speed is always better so I'm not sure where you draw the arbitrary line of "this is fast enough with canticle but not fast enough without."
  • CooperCooper
    @Tolan Nimble lowers your current resistance by 10%. If you have have low damage resistance it will add next to no damage to you.

    If you have questions about anything feel free to ask me here or in game.

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