Seafaring ship vs ship stuff

Aerek

Not saying ship v ship damage isn't broken, but if you guys are all Weapons 1 and 2, Weapons 4 and 5 fire literally twice as fast. You guys are basically attempting PVP without Nimble/QW, which is not going to accurately represent the norm.

Still, I think it's true that with 1 or 2 Deckhands aboard, plus Hullgird, any strider/galley is going to be essentially invincible. Just needs some better damage scaling on the ballista, and/or giving onager/arm some damage opportunities as well. Firing flares sets fires, but those are quickly extinguished; perhaps firing flares could do a small amount of upfront damage in addition, (very small, since you can fire multiple flares) just so the ballista isn't the sole source of damage and you can actually overcome Deckhand's repair.

Edit: Another option is making Hull/Sailgird work only vs seamonsters, not ships. I think the low rate of fire on weapons is a solid mechanic, but when we can tank monsters that hit for 25% (pre-gird) of a strider's hull every 4 seconds, then surviving a ballista bolt every 9 or so seconds is a no-brainer.

Valkyn

Really don't see why it's a problem for large ships to be difficult to sink. The loss on sinking can be huge costs. Why should it be easy or quick to achieve that especially without optimal weapons set up against an experienced captain?

Shirszae

Really dislike the idea of making hull/sailgird only work versus seamonsters. Thanks, but no thanks. Make it costlier or whatever, but I think removing it as a defence against other ships would be overdoing it.

Greys

A lot of it is having a correctly spec'ed crew and equipment and being intimately familiar with the ship's weapons. Its definitely doable and with 2 ships is not that hard. You aren't going to get it done w/ rank 3 gunners though. Seafaring is about specializing and complementing one another. Gotta go all in on that.

Kiet

Valkyn said:

Really don't see why it's a problem for large ships to be difficult to sink. The loss on sinking can be huge costs. Why should it be easy or quick to achieve that especially without optimal weapons set up against an experienced captain?

Because if you are under no danger to be sunk there's no point to even having the seas being open to attack by other ships. The seas are either dangerous or they are not. Currently, they are not unless you get two or three+ ships on you (or you're in a cutter, rip cutters).

No one's saying ships have to sink in 30 seconds, either. It should just not be 100% avoidable even if you stick around for 30-40 minutes.

Greys said:

A lot of it is having a correctly spec'ed crew and equipment and being intimately familiar with the ship's weapons. Its definitely doable and with 2 ships is not that hard. You aren't going to get it done w/ rank 3 gunners though. Seafaring is about specializing and complementing one another. Gotta go all in on that.

That's all well and good, but even at double the damage we were doing the hull would've only gone down to 60%. If you need two ships to sink one ship, that is, again, a no-danger situation.

Of course, Anaria keeps implying shipscan is 'broken', but unless she posts her own numbers/log there's nothing constructive to take from that.

There's also a limit to how much you can expect specialisation, let's be honest. Requiring two people with weapons 5 to even stand a shot at sinking is absurd. Weapons 5 being much faster, sure! But requiring it is ridiculous given how small our playerbase is and how expensive seafaring is.

Shirszae

I fail to see how you are responding to me. But there sure is. You can sink ships. It is just understandably more difficult if you have an awful shooting speed. As someone said. Weapons 5 makes a big difference. You simply shoot far too slowly otherwise. 

More than anything else, I suspect that was the reason Anaria was able to escape you lot.

Kiet

I meant to quote Valkyn! Fixed it.

Second: no, as I said, even at double the damage she'd have been fine. We've also engaged in combat with weapons 5 people and it still didn't do anything.

Shirszae

Also I don't see how requiring having spec five in weaponry is absurd. Its like saying you should be able to hold your own without all your relevant class skills. Sure, you can kill the small fry, but more than that just aint gonna happen.

Kiet

You don't have to give up subterfuge to be able to trans hypnosis, for instance. Either give more SPP total by trans seafaring or balance combat around 5-ranks being optimal but not necessary (just like all the other seafaring specs are, except for watch).

For the third time, though, weapons 5 is in the same situation of 0 real damage.

Tahquil

Bring hull healths of different types of ships closer together.

Wargalleys will still be a benefit as they have superior fire power, fast over with the wind and over chops, more crew on board means they will also regen a lot quicker as well. However manouervability sucks.

Sea striders are the mid ground. Middle fire power, slower than galleys but can take closer to the wind, average hull regen from shipmates and is still fairly manourveable.

Cutters have next to 0 fire power however with their ability to turn in a hell of a lot quicker than the other two and being able to sail one off the wind They have superior escapability. However their regen is the slowest because of the small number of crew.

I would perhaps also make cutters a tiniest bit quicker so if you are on the ball you can escape as no ship should have a 100% garuntee kill on another type of ship.

If the information I have is correct,
Galleys have Sails =15000 Hull =12000
Cutters have Sails = 3000 Hull = 2000

That's x5 and x6 times the health. I know you guys paid a lot more for your galleys but it's not going to be easy to balance ship combat with such a huge discrepancy. It's going to be like trying to balance combat between a newb and a dragon health pool and I'm sure noone wants scaling damage.

Kiet

Tahquil said:

Bring hull healths of different types of ships closer together.

Wargalleys will still be a benefit as they have superior fire power, fast over with the wind and over chops, more crew on board means they will also regen a lot quicker as well. However manouervability sucks.

Sea striders are the mid ground. Middle fire power, slower than galleys but can take closer to the wind, average hull regen from shipmates and is still fairly manourveable.

Cutters have next to 0 fire power however with their ability to turn in a hell of a lot quicker than the other two and being able to sail one off the wind They have superior escapability. However their regen is the slowest because of the small number of crew.

I would perhaps also make cutters a tiniest bit quicker so if you are on the ball you can escape as no ship should have a 100% garuntee kill on another type of ship.

This is probably a good solution, yeah. I'm not sure how you'd balance the three ship types without making the hull health differences less drastic.

Skye

It's kind of a compelling way to encourage people to hire their crews to an appropriate number instead of just a skeleton crew for minimising overheads. 

Valkyn

Doubling the damage would not double the max about of -%health on the hull, it would accumulate a lot more over time. If with level 3 gunners you do say 5 damage per second, but level 5 you do 10 damage per second, and the enemy can regen 4 damage per second, that's 5 done, 4 healed, so a total of 1 damage that 'sticks', vs 10 done, 4 healed so a total of 6 that 'sticks' and that stacks up a lot faster over a long period.

Kiet

Regardless, unless things were recently adjusted (and it doesn't seem like they have been), for the fourth time, we've fought with level 5 weapons and it's still a slog.

Shirszae

@Kiet I am morbidly curious as to for how long you'll keep track of the number of times you've repeated the same point. 

"For the fiftieth time, We've fought..." 

Kiet

If people keep arguing the same point, I will keep going forever!

Ahmet

Kiet said:

That's all well and good, but even at double the damage we were doing the hull would've only gone down to 60%. If you need two ships to sink one ship, that is, again, a no-danger situation.

Your ability to multiply twenty by two is impressive, but I assure that if you were doing double the damage, she would have been sunk long before the thirty minute mark.

If I have $100 in my bank account, get paid $20 a day and spend $20 a day, if my spending doubles to $40, my payments don't spontaneously double as well. My bank account will very very rapidly empty. The same goes for someone else's (Anaria's) ability to repair their ship hull in a certain amount of time.

Kiet

I wasn't gonna bother doing the actual math, but jeez. Fifth time now: we've also tested with weapons 5. Thanks!

Ahmet

Kiet said:

I wasn't gonna bother doing the actual math, but jeez. Fifth time now: we've also tested with weapons 5. Thanks!

I didn't say you hadn't, I was just pointing out that your math was inherently flawed.  

Kiet

Thanks, only 3 other people pointed that out and I totally couldn't figure that out on my own, rather than just lazily having tossed out a number!

Ahmet

Kiet said:

Thanks, only 3 other people pointed that out and I totally couldn't figure that out on my own, rather than just lazily having tossed out a number!

Apparently my sleep-deprived brain skimmed literally every other instance someone pointed out, srry  

Klendathu

The answer is clear. Delete ships. Nerf all the things.

Kiet

We've found some stuff to try, though, so we'll test on next strider we find before calling for anything definitive. Will report back to this thread.

Anaria

Kiet said:

Of course, Anaria keeps implying shipscan is 'broken', but unless she posts her own numbers/log there's nothing constructive to take from that.

I never once said or implied any such thing. I have offered my log of the battle to any member of the administration that would like to take a look at it, although as Saeva pointed out, they no doubt have this information already at their finger tips.

I'm not saying weapon damage should not be looked at. However it seems like you are maintaining the position that you lost because of faulty coding when in actuality, you lost because of your tactics. I'm not trying to insult you by saying that, it is just a fact. You made several key errors during the fight that allowed me to regain the initiative or pull out of range and repair, then ultimately extend and escape. For that reason, this particular battle is probably not representative enough to base any technical judgement upon.

I would actually suggest parking two sea striders next to one another with crews at equal level, and slogging it out while repairing, while also testing things like hull gird and the like. Ideally however, such a test should be conducted by the coders directly, if they feel so inclined. 

Gamden

Klendathu said:

The answer is clear. Delete ships. Nerf all the things.

@Klendathu  u just made the list...what list u ask?
I dont know but u made it!!!

Kiet

Anaria said:

Kiet said:

Of course, Anaria keeps implying shipscan is 'broken', but unless she posts her own numbers/log there's nothing constructive to take from that.

I never once said or implied any such thing. I have offered my log of the battle to any member of the administration that would like to take a look at it, although as Saeva pointed out, they no doubt have this information already at their finger tips.

I'm not saying weapon damage should not be looked at. However it seems like you are maintaining the position that you lost because of faulty coding when in actuality, you lost because of your tactics. I'm not trying to insult you by saying that, it is just a fact. You made several key errors during the fight that allowed me to regain the initiative or pull out of range and repair, then ultimately extend and escape. For that reason, this particular battle is probably not representative enough to base any technical judgement upon.

I would actually suggest parking two sea striders next to one another with crews at equal level, and slogging it out while repairing, while also testing things like hull gird and the like. Ideally however, such a test should be conducted by the coders directly, if they feel so inclined. 

Well I shouldn't have put quotations around 'broken', since then it can be implied as an attack, sorry! But, it's still your word vs shipscan, and since you aren't posting a log I can't really do anything but go by shipscan. According to shipscan, you never went under 80% hull, (or 76% if it rounds to nearest, or 71% if it rounds up). That's not "close" at all.

You were also like... never out of weapon range except once at the beginning, nor were you freely repairing with no dart pressure, I don't know what you're talking about. If we were having trouble keeping up with you we wouldn't have grappled you like two dozen times.

We've also, unsurprisingly, dealt with a fully equipped/crewed strider firing at us, and the damage was paltry then, too.

Anaria

Kiet said:

But, it's still your word vs shipscan, and since you aren't posting a log I can't really do anything but go by shipscan. According to shipscan, you never went under 80% hull, (or 76% if it rounds to nearest, or 71% if it rounds up). That's not "close" at all. 

You were also like... never out of weapon range except once at the beginning, nor were you freely repairing with no dart pressure, I don't know what you're talking about. If we were having trouble keeping up with you we wouldn't have grappled you like two dozen times.

We've also, unsurprisingly, dealt with a fully equipped/crewed strider firing at us, and the damage was paltry then, too.

I really have no ego investment at this point, and I'm disinclined to post a log that would not only reveal ways for you to be more successful against me next time, but might also showcase some of my own tactical mistakes for others to exploit. The fact is, we are both remembering vastly different battles. Whether you take my word for it or not, I was significantly damaged towards the end. I really can't speak to what you saw with shipscan, as I was not on your ship. 

As far as me being grappled goes... I have no idea how you came up with "like two dozen" times. Try two or three. 

And yes, looking over the log, I will admit that I made my own share of tactical misjudgments during the fight. I'm not trying to thump my own chest here. There are definitely some places where I need to improve my system.

Either way, this is turning into a literal "he said, she said" so I think I'll leave it that.

Tahquil

Hey @kiet @saeva, post your log to prove ships can is borked?

Or at least snippets of the grappling, and the lowest hull health ships an showed you.

edit:@Anaria could do it as well. Don't post the whole log and give away tactics but when you were grappled and your lowest health overall

Kiet

Will have to get a log with someone else from Mhaldor, useless to post our shipscan if Anaria won't post her log

Tahquil

She can still confirm if that was the lowest. While lying about it to save face on the forums might happen in the long run lying would only disadvantage her in her own sea battles.