Seafaring ship vs ship stuff

Kinilan

One weapon at a time is what we used to have. It didn't work. If this was a response to every shot type doing something special, well, every shot type didn't need to do something special. I mean kicking people off the figurehead? Really? That is just OP AF.

I don't like it. BUT, if you want to make it work remove hull repairs while at sea. No crew repairs, no hull/sail maint ability. No more damage from moving (which was always stupid). Adjust monster health/damage to suit.

Suddenly Wavecall isn't the answer to everything. Crashing through chops might not be the best idea. No more turtling AND the bug that lets ships repair from 0% hull health NEVER has to be fixed. But after 9-10 years I guess it never will be anyways...

Taraus

Speaking for my part in the battle (which was first ship vs. monster, then monster vs. ship vs. ship, then ship vs. ship, with the latter part turning into a 30-45m exchange of burning through ammo & figurehead energy), these are some of the things I walked away with (disclaimer: I am by no means fluent or well-versed in the new seafaring PvP yet):

• The bug with grapple is astoundingly crippling to the offensive ship, but I'm unsure if its a legitimate bug, or grapple was tweaked to fail pending certain circumstances. Part of offensive success hinges on being able to immobilize your victims, so grappling becomes even more crucial now that chops no longer exist as a viable wall to pin to.
• No simultaneous weapon firing - the fact that one weapon firing resets the channel on ALL weapons, when only one type of weapon does actual hull damage, doesn't really make sense to me (sail damage is irrelevant - ships don't sink because of damaged sails). I can understand where it would hold true if it reset the channel of same-type weapons, to prevent burst volleys of damage (ie a strider equipped with 3 ballistas vs. one of each type, or a tank-built galley), but interfering with ALL weapons, regardless of type, seems excessive.
• Related to the above, ship repair easily, easily outpaces dart damage. Like Kiet said, we started out the battle with out hull at roughly 50%, and the opposition certainly wasn't shy about shooting us - but we repaired back to full easily, all while engaging & firing back ourselves. I'd suggest either increase the damage done via darts, leaking, and-or some other method of adjusting this on the repair side - maybe reducing number of shipmates or total amount repaired, require a specific skill somewhere in seafaring to have seaborne repairs be effective.)
  
• Regarding the PK aspect involved in PvP - while I have certainly been a longstanding, very vocal advocate of not turning ship vs. ship into standard on-land PvP, the fact that firing on another ship does not count as provocation for the fired-upon captain to seek retribution via forceboard is a little... wonky - and greatly limits the ways in which a forceboarding individual CAN strongarm opposition (we all know how I feel about killing shipmates, too)
  

I wholly understand and agree that sinking a ship should not be -easy-, that it should be something you have to work for, and should require multiple people. But after spending 30m steady-volley at a ship, and not seeing their hull dip at all, and actually sailing away -because we were bored- does not bode well for the long-term future of PvP (SvS?) combat.

Skye

Regarding grapple: I've not been able to successfully grapple a ship for quite some time now in the times that I've crewed for other ships. The circumstances under which a ship may be grappled seems to be so specific that it appears to be capable of being averted purely by spamming rowing/sails regardless of whether the ship moves (or can move)  

Also, can we have a check on that forced map update for shipwarning and monster movement? It doesn't seem to be working at this point. 

Aerek

Yeah, I don't really understand the logic for the ship v ship weapon reset, can that be explained to me? I'm guessing it's because they were worried about the ability of one guy on an onager to keep the sails/figurehead/weapon locked down, (which is pretty strong) or that they thought that 3 ballistas firing in broadsides was too much damage at once, but neither of those things seem particularly unfair to me or could at least be mitigated through other means.

But I'm not a hardened veteran when it comes to ship combat, so perhaps there are some things I'm not realizing.

Kiet

Ship vs ship damage is still pretty ridiculous.  Spent 30-40 minutes firing at a ship that was constantly grappled or stuck in place and the ship only lost 20% hull? Pretty absurd! Cutters sink pretty fast, but strider vs strider is pretty useless.

Anaria

Kiet said:

Ship vs ship damage is still pretty ridiculous.  Spent 30-40 minutes firing at a ship that was constantly grappled or stuck in place and the ship only lost 20% hull? Pretty absurd! Cutters sink pretty fast, but strider vs strider is pretty useless.

Or maybe I just knew what I was doing.

Also, I was not 'constantly stuck in place'. I was grappled on and off but that is not the same thing.

Saeva

Anaria said:

Kiet said:

Ship vs ship damage is still pretty ridiculous.  Spent 30-40 minutes firing at a ship that was constantly grappled or stuck in place and the ship only lost 20% hull? Pretty absurd! Cutters sink pretty fast, but strider vs strider is pretty useless.

Or maybe I just knew what I was doing.

Also, I was not 'constantly stuck in place'. I was grappled on and off but that is not the same thing.

You were stuck in place a lot. A fair lot. That whole venture was around 30 minutes and you weren't far east of Zaphar and it took -that- long for you to get to the harbour. And you never got below 80 hull from what I could tell. That's just stupid.

Kiet

I mean, you can say you 'knew what you were doing' but there's only like a couple of things you can really do to mitigate incoming damage, and neither of them are exactly high level strategizing. You also weren't doing all of them.

If you allow yourself to be fired at for 30-40 minutes straight (our ballista never stopped firing) I would really say you should at least be close to sinking if not outright sunk. Small-scale fights not having any sort of winner decided by the 30 minute mark is just not great design, and I doubt it's what was necessarily intended when weapons got reworked.

Gamden

I think Anaria IS experienced but im with Kiet on this one..Strider vs Strider is pretty much broken

Kiet

Gamden said:

I think Anaria IS experienced but im with Kiet on this one..Strider vs Strider is pretty much broken

Right, like, we used to have regular adventurer 1v1 fights that lasted 30 minutes all the time back in the day, but this was recognized as not desirable.

Of course, ship combat shouldn't be as fast as land combat (a ship getting sunk in 20 seconds would be absurd), and there's also the issue that you have to account for galleys/groups of ships. But I imagine having some kind of scaling damage based on how many darts are firing at you over the last X seconds might work?

Strider vs cutter times are pretty good, though of course striders could take a bit longer to sink than that.

Taraus

haha lol

god damn it now I miss Merador

Gamden

I think amount of damage per person per weapon rank should be increased.

2 weapons lvl 5 x people shooting per weapon at on lvl 1 sailor thought sink him faster than lower level sailors..srry on cell..cannot flesh out my idea

Anaria

Saeva said:

Anaria said:

Kiet said:

Ship vs ship damage is still pretty ridiculous.  Spent 30-40 minutes firing at a ship that was constantly grappled or stuck in place and the ship only lost 20% hull? Pretty absurd! Cutters sink pretty fast, but strider vs strider is pretty useless.

Or maybe I just knew what I was doing.

Also, I was not 'constantly stuck in place'. I was grappled on and off but that is not the same thing.

You were stuck in place a lot. A fair lot. That whole venture was around 30 minutes and you weren't far east of Zaphar and it took -that- long for you to get to the harbour. And you never got below 80 hull from what I could tell. That's just stupid.

You are also leaving out the fact that I was not running for Zaphar the whole time. I was on the defensive and returning fire whenever possible and only started to bug out after it became clear you had me out numbered at least 3 to 1 if not more and no help was likely to arrive before I DID sink. You are also understating how much hull damage I took during the battle, particularly near the end, but I don't care to provide exact numbers for your analysis. Suffice it to say, it was not a favourable situation for me to be in. 

Saeva

Anaria said:

Saeva said:

Anaria said:

Kiet said:

Ship vs ship damage is still pretty ridiculous.  Spent 30-40 minutes firing at a ship that was constantly grappled or stuck in place and the ship only lost 20% hull? Pretty absurd! Cutters sink pretty fast, but strider vs strider is pretty useless.

Or maybe I just knew what I was doing.

Also, I was not 'constantly stuck in place'. I was grappled on and off but that is not the same thing.

You were stuck in place a lot. A fair lot. That whole venture was around 30 minutes and you weren't far east of Zaphar and it took -that- long for you to get to the harbour. And you never got below 80 hull from what I could tell. That's just stupid.

You are also leaving out the fact that I was not running for Zaphar the whole time. I was on the defensive and returning fire whenever possible and only started to bug out after it became clear you had me out numbered at least 3 to 1 if not more and no help was likely to arrive before I DID sink. You are also understating how much hull damage I took during the battle, particularly near the end, but I don't care to provide exact numbers for your analysis. Suffice it to say, it was not a favourable situation for me to be in. 

Stuck in the box:
Then shipscan is broken.

Shirszae

Some time ago shipscan was silently changed to give an actual percent in regards to a ship's hull health, and then just as silently changed back to this vague mess. I sort of wish it had stayed, but perhaps it'll come back with a future rework.

Kiet

Yeah either shipscan is broken or there's not really any way for us to 'understate' the damage done. It's still giving a percent right now, though?

Saeva

Yes it gives a percentage in increments of 10s

Shirszae

Is it? All I get is the usual Hull no damage or Hull md damage or whatever. What I am referring to was it being changed to saying something like 100% health like you get on your own ship prompt. Do you still guys get it like that? Maybe I am the one bugged then xD

Edit: I wonder if it is related to how much you have in the watch specialisation

Saeva

Shirszae said:

Is it? All I get is the usual Hull no damage or Hull md damage or whatever. What I am referring to was it being changed to saying something like 100% health like you get on your own ship prompt. Do you still guys get it like that? Maybe I am the one bugged then xD

Do you do shipscan brief? It's at the end. You'll see Hull % and sails %

Shirszae

Saeva said:

Shirszae said:

Is it? All I get is the usual Hull no damage or Hull md damage or whatever. What I am referring to was it being changed to saying something like 100% health like you get on your own ship prompt. Do you still guys get it like that? Maybe I am the one bugged then xD

Do you do shipscan brief? It's at the end. You'll see Hull % and sails %

All I get with shipscan brief is

[H] TLS Crown of Thorns (WC ) no flag - ; H ^^^

Tahquil

Would have helped if you had called you position east of Zaphar instead of East of Tapoa where those looking to back you up went.

Its going to be really hard to balance out damage wise since the hull healths of the three types of ship vary ridiculous amounts.

Saeva

@Shirszae

** SHIPSCAN BRIEF ** You see the following ships nearby.

[H] The Barrel (WG ) golden - S@100%; H@90%

[H] Mysterious Shroud (WC ) no flag - S@90%; H@90%

[H] Enheduanna`s Glass Heart (WC ) no flag - S@90%; H@90%

[H] Drowning Grace (WC ) black - S@100%; H@100%

[H] The Malarkey (SS ) blue - S@100%; H@100%

[H] The Lighthammer (SS ) no flag - S@100%; H@100%

[H] Shadows Escape (WC ) blue - S@100%; H@100%

[H] an unnamed Windcutter (WC ) no flag - S@80%; H@70%

[H] The Sea Rose (WC ) no flag - S@90%; H@90%

[H] SS Arcane Butterfly (WC ) no flag - S@90%; H@80%

[H] Tempting Fate (WC ) silver - S@100%; H@100%

[H] The Eye of Asopos (WC ) no flag - S@90%; H@90%

[H] The Durande (SS ) red - S@100%; H@90%

[H] TLS Lionheart (WC ) glyphic pirate's - S@100%; H@100%

[H] The Sea Lily (WC ) no flag - S@100%; H@100%

[H] The Talliest Giraffe (WC ) no flag - S@60%; H@40%

[H] SS Miss Behavin (WC ) no flag - S@80%; H@60%

[H] Vashnarian Heart (WC ) silver - S@100%; H@100%

[H] The Albatross (WC ) green - S@100%; H@100%

[H] The Crimson Wake (WC ) red - S@90%; H@100%

[H] TLS Manifest Arcitena (WC ) no flag - S@90%; H@90%

[H] The Wildwood Nautilus (SS ) no flag - S@100%; H@90%

[H] The Scurvy Eel (WC ) no flag - S@100%; H@100%

[H] The Jaunty Fugue (WG ) no flag - S@100%; H@100%

[H] Ulangian Starlight (WC ) no flag - S@100%; H@100%

[H] The Relentless (SS ) silver - S@100%; H@100%

[H] The Silver Spider (WC ) red - S@100%; H@100%

[H] The Hokulea (SS ) silver - S@100%; H@90%

[H] Draoi Keleus (WC ) no flag - S@100%; H@100%

[H] Perpetual Motion (SS ) no flag - S@90%; H@90%

[H] The Compass Rose (SS ) blue - S@100%; H@100%

[H] Mere Nature (WC ) no flag - S@100%; H@100%

[H] Ravens Wing (WC ) no flag - S@100%; H@90%

[H] Yard and Fundament (SS ) black - S@100%; H@100%

[H] The Hyphen (WC ) blue - S@100%; H@100%

[H] ANS Blade of Entropy (SS ) black - S@90%; H@70%

[H] The Emerald Maiden (WC ) no flag - S@100%; H@100%

[H] Ainghaeal`s Revenge (WC ) blue - S@90%; H@90%

[H] TLS Windweaver (WC ) Mhaldorian flag of crimson - S@90%; H@90%

[H] TLS Leviathan (WG ) Mhaldorian flag of crimson - S@100%; H@100%

[H] The Gypsy Wind (SS ) and belled pirate's - S@100%; H@100%

Kiet

Tahquil said:

Would have helped if you had called you position east of Zaphar instead of East of Tapoa where those looking to back you up went.

Its going to be really hard to balance out damage wise since the hull healths of the three types of ship vary ridiculous amounts.

Yeah by far the hardest part is balancing the vastly different hull strengths and the numbers of weapons. A galley has a ridiculously higher amount of firepower, and that's fine, but you don't want them like one-shotting striders.

Shirszae

Yeah, apparently seeing it like that requires full watch.  The more you know.

Saeva

Shirszae said:

Yeah, apparently seeing it like that requires full watch.  The more you know.

Aha, I learned something new today then too.

Anaria

Saeva said:

Anaria said:

Saeva said:

Anaria said:

Kiet said:

Ship vs ship damage is still pretty ridiculous.  Spent 30-40 minutes firing at a ship that was constantly grappled or stuck in place and the ship only lost 20% hull? Pretty absurd! Cutters sink pretty fast, but strider vs strider is pretty useless.

Or maybe I just knew what I was doing.

Also, I was not 'constantly stuck in place'. I was grappled on and off but that is not the same thing.

You were stuck in place a lot. A fair lot. That whole venture was around 30 minutes and you weren't far east of Zaphar and it took -that- long for you to get to the harbour. And you never got below 80 hull from what I could tell. That's just stupid.

You are also leaving out the fact that I was not running for Zaphar the whole time. I was on the defensive and returning fire whenever possible and only started to bug out after it became clear you had me out numbered at least 3 to 1 if not more and no help was likely to arrive before I DID sink. You are also understating how much hull damage I took during the battle, particularly near the end, but I don't care to provide exact numbers for your analysis. Suffice it to say, it was not a favourable situation for me to be in. 

Stuck in the box:
Then shipscan is broken.

I have set aside the log of the battle for @Tecton or @Sarapis in case either wishes to see the combat from my ships perspective and see just how low I got. 

Also my apologies to the Mariners. When I was first attacked I did call out Tapoa instead of Zaphar. Woops. My bad. When you are under sudden attack there are a lot of details happening at once.

Saeva

Pretty sure they can see it without your log if they have the approx. time. Which they do, because Kiet's post was right after it all.

Frederich

I do kinda wonder what damage our two ships did against yours.

that was my first time fighting someone else on the ocean and i was really jittery and scared because gamden dragged me out there

Saeva

We got down to 50 or so but there was some wavecall damage, and I never put up hullgird. Wasn't exactly worried, cause it's not the first time I've had numerous ships called out to come and play.

But welcome to the high seas! Keep at it!

Melodie

Confirmed on the 50%, I noticed when we docked. But like she said, we weren't staying to really fight, no hullgird, I wasn't maintaining hull, etc. Would have loved to fight one of you other ships one on one (or rather crew on crew), but sure as hell aren't sticking around for 1 on 3 (or 2)!

Also interesting thing to learn about watch, nice catch. If Saeva never saw it dip below 80%, though, there's clearly some kind of bug if Anaria is correct in being low towards the end. I'll be the first to admit that none of us had high-ranking weapons and that absolutely could be part of it, but for as long as we were against each other, especially being as stationary as we were for some parts, it is crazy that it was survived. But at the same time, lifting the damage is dangerous for multiple ship interactions.

Not entirely sure on a good middle here, but something definitely needs a boost.