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Predatory Advances

124

Comments

  • VansittartVansittart

    Really interesting thread, and lots of thoughtful comments on "naming and shaming" from @Skye, @Blubear, @Tibitha and others.  I think you're probably right, on balance - the bad probably would outweigh the good.

    Would be interesting to get a steer from @Tecton on whether cross-character accountability is applied in these cases, that would be good to know.

    I suspect the real problem though is enforcement.  If (as anecdotal evidence suggests here) genuine newbies are often the most targeted, then they are very unlikely to be savvy enough about how Achaea works to either make a claim, or make that claim stick (I bet they don't log, or probably even cut and paste).  And people who do this kind of harassment can be very plausible in their defence (I misread the signs, we were just chatting!, I only asked if she was interested - I never forced anything, we were roleplaying, I was trying to be helpful and she misinterpreted).  Difficult for the admin in those cases - particularly if the only thing that really is going to stop it is a cross-character shrubbing.

    Every time I chat to people about this though, you hear more amazing stories.  I am dumbfounded by @Tahquil's story for example - I never would have thought there was (at that time at least when I had more of a handle on everything) someone in that position who would have done that. 

    It's a really hard problem to solve, I suppose that it's just everyone's responsibility to try and deal with it.  Get the admin involved where we can, push for hard punishments where we can, look after the newbs, not tolerate it among the people we know and play with.  Step in and stop it if we see it.  If we're in a House/city/order, and a member does it, then punish it as hard as we can (whether or not the person involved is popular, useful etc).

    I also have a LOT to say about @Boosteya's argument that demonizing sex is the problem, but that runs the risk of derailing.  I'll just say: I disagree - an absence of sex-positivity is not a contributory factor here.  In fact, if I thought everyone was as interested in my amazing views as I am, I'd link bank to the "Bacon and RP" thread and run an entirely counter argument that defending mudsex as an integral/necessary/useful part of RP, is actually a contributory factor the other way, but I'll try and restrain myself.

  • KatsuragiKatsuragi
    edited January 2016
    This is why any and all of my female characters are rude, crass, belligerent and homo-leaning bisexuals who are inherently distrustful of men. That way it's completely in-character for them to fire "Piss off, you're not my type" to any male who even says hello. The sexhavers are cowed into slinking away, muttering weak placatives such as  "wow, don't have to be such a [tart], only being friendly" and the ones who aren't are generally interested in the genuine roleplay. 

    Then there's Katsuragi herself who's so linguistically clueless that the one time someone tried to proposition sex with her, they were the one who got impaled, and I don't mean with wedding tackle. 
    I have 150 Lusternian credits that I'll trade over for Achaean ones. Let me know if you're interested!
  • TectonTecton The Garden of the Gods
    Vansittart said:

    Really interesting thread, and lots of thoughtful comments on "naming and shaming" from @Skye, @Blubear, @Tibitha and others.  I think you're probably right, on balance - the bad probably would outweigh the good.

    Would be interesting to get a steer from @Tecton on whether cross-character accountability is applied in these cases, that would be good to know.

    I suspect the real problem though is enforcement.  If (as anecdotal evidence suggests here) genuine newbies are often the most targeted, then they are very unlikely to be savvy enough about how Achaea works to either make a claim, or make that claim stick (I bet they don't log, or probably even cut and paste).  And people who do this kind of harassment can be very plausible in their defence (I misread the signs, we were just chatting!, I only asked if she was interested - I never forced anything, we were roleplaying, I was trying to be helpful and she misinterpreted).  Difficult for the admin in those cases - particularly if the only thing that really is going to stop it is a cross-character shrubbing.

    Every time I chat to people about this though, you hear more amazing stories.  I am dumbfounded by @Tahquil's story for example - I never would have thought there was (at that time at least when I had more of a handle on everything) someone in that position who would have done that. 

    It's a really hard problem to solve, I suppose that it's just everyone's responsibility to try and deal with it.  Get the admin involved where we can, push for hard punishments where we can, look after the newbs, not tolerate it among the people we know and play with.  Step in and stop it if we see it.  If we're in a House/city/order, and a member does it, then punish it as hard as we can (whether or not the person involved is popular, useful etc).

    I also have a LOT to say about @Boosteya's argument that demonizing sex is the problem, but that runs the risk of derailing.  I'll just say: I disagree - an absence of sex-positivity is not a contributory factor here.  In fact, if I thought everyone was as interested in my amazing views as I am, I'd link bank to the "Bacon and RP" thread and run an entirely counter argument that defending mudsex as an integral/necessary/useful part of RP, is actually a contributory factor the other way, but I'll try and restrain myself.

    Cross-character accountability (HELP CROSSCHARACTER) would apply to cases of harassment/predation, yes.
  • RispokRispok
    I'd be curious, @Sarapis, what Achaea's "time to penis" was. 15 seconds?
  • SarapisSarapis
    Well, we pretty tightly control any custom description that could be in public view (or we try to) so that's a tough one to pull off here. Time til Penis really refers more to instances where people can do things like push together a bunch of crates to make a picture of a penis, or just sculpt one in something like Minecraft or Second Life. It's almost impossible to stop in those situations.
  • RispokRispok
    Sarapis said:
    Well, we pretty tightly control any custom description that could be in public view (or we try to) so that's a tough one to pull off here. Time til Penis really refers more to instances where people can do things like push together a bunch of crates to make a picture of a penis, or just sculpt one in something like Minecraft or Second Life. It's almost impossible to stop in those situations.
    Challenge accepted
  • JinsunJinsun TN, USA
    I'm always surprised when people proposition Jinsun out of the blue. It's happened a few times and it's always someone I've never met. It generally gets "Who are you? I'm busy. Leave me alone."
    image
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna be
    Rispok said:
    Sarapis said:
    Well, we pretty tightly control any custom description that could be in public view (or we try to) so that's a tough one to pull off here. Time til Penis really refers more to instances where people can do things like push together a bunch of crates to make a picture of a penis, or just sculpt one in something like Minecraft or Second Life. It's almost impossible to stop in those situations.
    Challenge accepted
    Journals. Scrolls. Posters. Wax Tablets. There's even a temple with a public display board of sorts.
    Huh. Neat.
  • JinsunJinsun TN, USA
    Name and shame @Sanevito. Dude keeps trying to get novices to let him draw them nude. Sick of that kind of crap.
    image
  • SilvarienSilvarien
    edited January 2016
    @Qwyn : I feel like a total retard, honestly. I knew this sort of thing was happening, but I didn't know it was an epidemic or that it was ruining the game.

    I try to make light use of Ignore, but if somebody is truly odious, do it in a heartbeat. That forbids any further access. If they approach you past Ignore -- it's their funeral. My God once made me into a shrubbery for the Order's amusement, they all decided to make me back into a Dwarf once the rustling became particularly panicky. Have you ever seen shrubberies get a hotel room? Oh, wait, they can't. I am sure there's a shrubbery procreation manual somewhere on Wikipedia, but this game's Gods haven't bothered to read it. ;)

    In all seriousness, there is 0 excuse for predatory stuff and if you're dealing with novices and that crap, it's "goodbye head." I know it's been said here a number of times, but you need to understand almost nobody in this game is going to see it in a positive light. This isn't the community you met, it's a worthless asshat that we'd like gone as much as you would like it. Please don't judge the community based on such interaction.
  • AsmodronAsmodron
    Is it wrong when I first saw the title of this thread, I thought it was about a cool Predator class concept? >>
  • QwynQwyn
    I seem to have levelled up enough and have been playing enough that I'm off the radar. I also race-changed out of Siren, since I figured that wasn't helping, heh. I did get pretty skittish about this, though, as it wasn't an isolated incident - I've played before about a decade ago, and had a situation where someone icewalled me in and demanded I "pay them back" for them taking me on a guild hunt. It seems like I'm not the only one who's experienced stuff like this, though, so perhaps a good dialogue has been opened.
  • KyrraKyrra Australia
    Jinsun said:
    Name and shame Sanevito. Dude keeps trying to get novices to let him draw them nude. Sick of that kind of crap.
    He doesn't just ask novices. He's asked me once or twice in the past as well. I just say I'm not interested and he backs off.
    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

  • IsmayIsmay
    I don't see why, in this situation, they can't just be PKed out of the game. Sexually preying on an orgs novices is plenty of ic justification.
    Give us -real- shop logs! Not another misinterpretation of features we ask for, turned into something that either doesn't help at all, or doesn't remotely resemble what we wanted to begin with.

    Thanks!

    Current position of some of the playerbase, instead of expressing a desire to fix problems:

    Vhaynna: "Honest question - if you don't like Achaea or the current admin, why do you even bother playing?"


  • TahquilTahquil
    I don't think mass ignoring is going to be a viable solution here. If your being harassed then sure. But mass ignoring is kinda like putting your fingers in your ears going 'la, la not happening."

    For example: if you ignore X then you can't see certain things. This would include if they are trying to groom novices over orgtells. Where you could warn them (novice and X).

    or if a novice comes to you saying X is being creepy all you can do is advise the novice to ignore but you can't go out, for example, naming and shaming them on the public boards, warning other people about it or exacting your own revenge on them because it breaks the rules of your ignore.

    mass ignoring those "we all know who they are" means the only people not ignoring them don't know that they have this rep. I mean, I assume I'm part of 'we' and I can only name three people and I'm not a newb just come across from anothe IRE game. I  do assume there are more than that.
  • ValyshaValysha
    Tahquil said:
    I don't think mass ignoring is going to be a viable solution here. If your being harassed then sure. But mass ignoring is kinda like putting your fingers in your ears going 'la, la not happening."

    For example: if you ignore X then you can't see certain things. This would include if they are trying to groom novices over orgtells. Where you could warn them (novice and X).

    or if a novice comes to you saying X is being creepy all you can do is advise the novice to ignore but you can't go out, for example, naming and shaming them on the public boards, warning other people about it or exacting your own revenge on them because it breaks the rules of your ignore.

    mass ignoring those "we all know who they are" means the only people not ignoring them don't know that they have this rep. I mean, I assume I'm part of 'we' and I can only name three people and I'm not a newb just come across from anothe IRE game. I  do assume there are more than that.
    I totally agree with that, and besides ignoring is not nearly as satisfying as getting to kill them or getting someone else who can. ((That will be satisfying icly as well as oocly!))
    Sometimes you will never know the value of a moment until it becomes a memory.
  • SzanthaxSzanthax San Diego
    Name and shame? who cares. get them IP banned. they find another IP and play again? get them IP banned.

    If, like  @bluef says, we all know someone whos doing this, lets get rid of them.

    There is no place in this game for those people. Issue issue issue ban ban ban. No more. We need to make a stand. Guts, gore, murder, death, kill, three seashells, all fine.... No mudsexing minors. The end. If you see it, report it. If someone does it to you, report.




  • AylekAylek
    edited February 2016
    Whilst we are discussiong about minors playing this game and sexual connotations/advances etc. Maybe the game should remove certain denizens from its keeping. For instance, the sex slaves in Manara, the prostitutes, the Doxy house, the Dominatrix who (I am unsure if is still there) resides in Hashan.

    I think if people as young as 13 play this game, then we should remove anything that is related to sexual violence/abuse/sexually related denizens (such as the pleasure slaves/sex slaves in Manara - a Newbie area) etc.
  • RangorRangor
    Qwyn said:
    What's ok to issue, though? Like, if someone is sending vaguely-creepy tells or giving my character gifts, they aren't breaking any rules. If I issue, I'm the one over-reacting. 
    If there are any Eleusians involved, I would very much like to be made aware of it. I'm pretty sure that goes for all the city leaders out there.
    image
  • RangorRangor
    Bluef said:
    What really bothers me is that the more experienced players, who everyone knows are doing this regularly, could be propositioning players as young as 13 years of age in real life. That's how old you have to be to play Achaea, after all (although many players admit to having been much younger when they started). 

    These players don't know who they're preying upon - and they don't care. That is what makes them unsuitable for this or any multi-user space online that is open to young people under the age of 18. 

    Again, we all know who they are. Hell, I've been back playing full-time for less than 24 hours and have already run into 3 naked female characters in public rooms with lewd descriptions and one guy standing at a city centre with his child-like waif of a girl/friend. Ew & Ugh! Welcome back to Achaea, Bluef! 

    Cities and Houses shouldn't have to police this either though; This is a game. No one plays a game so they can come online and "play" to catch a predator. 

    Rather than naming and shaming, what I would suggest is that if you know someone in-game who does this regularly (and we all do!), put them on ignore. If everyone did that, they'd have no one left to play this game with and they'd eventually move on to somewhere with a community of players who are willing to put up with their predatory behavior. 



    If we all knew who they were, we could do something about it. 
    image
  • TahquilTahquil
    I strangely have a line in this.

    I think the sex slaves of Manara should be removed as it's a consent thing. (Denizens force themselves on other denizens so why can't I? Boiled down to rape existing currently IG, as I know the mythos has rape in it but they can't really ret-con that.)

    But the prostitutes, dominatrix etc as consent is given. So I'm okay with those still existing.
  • AlrenaAlrena
    Daeir said:
    All these opinions (including my own) are largely worthless. I have faith that Tecton and co will do what they think needs to be done to keep this stuff under wraps. Let's not go nuts over this and defer meaningful action to the people capable of enacting it - ergo, the administration.
    That doesn't mean we can't do anything to deal with predators, especially in the grey area of gifts and the like, within our own organisations. It's in our power to create a culture within the organisation where behaviour like that is not acceptable. There are some things that players can do that the admins couldn't (as easily), and there are things that we should leave up to the admins. Let admins deal with the serious cases, absolutely. But we can and should focus on providing a welcoming atmosphere where a novice doesn't need to worry about unwanted advances, or at least knows they can come to their mentor or someone in their organisation with their concerns/questions/doubts. That can be as simple as ensuring we make novices feel included in the organisation, so they don't feel they have to deal with things alone. That's important beyond just unwanted advances, too.
    image
  • BluefBluef Delos
    edited February 2016
    Tahquil said:
    I don't think mass ignoring is going to be a viable solution here. If your being harassed then sure. But mass ignoring is kinda like putting your fingers in your ears going 'la, la not happening."

    For example: if you ignore X then you can't see certain things. This would include if they are trying to groom novices over orgtells. Where you could warn them (novice and X).

    or if a novice comes to you saying X is being creepy all you can do is advise the novice to ignore but you can't go out, for example, naming and shaming them on the public boards, warning other people about it or exacting your own revenge on them because it breaks the rules of your ignore.

    mass ignoring those "we all know who they are" means the only people not ignoring them don't know that they have this rep. I mean, I assume I'm part of 'we' and I can only name three people and I'm not a newb just come across from anothe IRE game. I  do assume there are more than that.

    All these ideas about taking a positive approach, making it about the newcomers, having them feel welcomed, etc. or the ones about let's kill the predator (which benefits us, and does nothing to them since they don't give two shits about XP, their RP reputation, etc.). and let's face it: That's what we've already been doing and it doesn't work. 

    If you know someone who is a predator -- and let me stress this again: WE ALL DO (if you claim not to you've been playing Achaea in .a bubble or you're being willfully ignorant of what is a systemic problem in this game and others like it) -- and you continue to offer them the ability to interact with you, your newcomers, your citymates, etc. then you are part of the problem IMO. 

    Lots of people used a handy a script to snub people on forums who were toxic and that worked pretty well. Then moderators could police the truly habitual offenders because there wasn't a sea of terrible posts going back and forth to wade through every single day before even getting to the arses causing all the trouble. The same principal applies here.

    Why wouldn't we mass ignore them? They are in effect antisocial. They are not contributing to Achaean life. They are a detriment to the culture of this game. If we all took a stand together, they'd have no one left to prey upon. 

This discussion has been closed.