Seafaring PVE

Kresslack

Valkyn said:

I don't think anyone is arguing the sea shouldn't be a dangerous place... just that it's not worth risking said danger with the current payouts.

That's a pretty subjective statement. I think it's up to the individual whether it's worth the risk or not. If they feel it isn't, they can hire people to protect their investments, or forfeit the potential profit.

Valkyn

How does paying extra make it in any way worthwhile? No thanks. I just wouldn't fish or dive, just use ship for sailing between islands.

Kresslack

Daeir said:

Seafaring really frustrates me at times because it is literally the underpinnings of what could be an exceptionally engaging system. Imagine commodity price and supply determined by the needs of distant islands, ship trades actually occurring with real, tangible commodities bulked up into crates that piratically minded players could set out to purloin, city-states sending their navies out to vie for supremacy in distant areas of the seas where special materials lie on the seafloor, forging relationships with the various tritonic states to turn their machinations against other factions..

The seas alive with new traders skirting various demarcation lines enforced by city navies, or bartering for free passage..

There's a whole game to be found in this system, and it really grinds my gears to see it limited to basically three or four activities.

It would be good to see something like this finally come about. I think the biggest issue is the tedium of sailing in general. Unless you're the Captain, you're pretty much twiddling your thumbs. Not sure how viable a solution this would be since it just came to mind, but maybe taking some of the ship responsibility away from the NPC crews and making it available as an optional on-ship-job such as Crewchief and Helm would help. Give people things to do on the ship while sailing besides just standing there watching chops slide by.

Kiet

Maybe you could make people play puzzles to sail the ship properly


Perhaps something like this to handle bilging

Kresslack

Kiet said:

Maybe you could make people play puzzles to sail the ship properly


Perhaps something like this to handle bilging

Kyrra

Puzzle pirates so much fun.

Bronislav

I'm all for making the sea more dangerous, more exciting, and more violent - just make the returns bigger for it.

Put bounties on sea monsters to hunt and/or drag their corpses to shore for valuable trophies/reagents/items.

Negotiate with Tritons who think you are landwalking scum. Decapitate them when you discover that they are Caspiites. Have different factions of Tritons with different feelings toward cities - and have these feelings change depending on how city leaders react to their overtures. One wrong (or right..) word gets your city embroiled in a conflict on the sea, which can reap rich rewards for being on the winning side...Or intense hardship, if you get rekt.

Or, better yet, have denizens of the sea beg for help of certain cities. Merfolk ask Cyrene for aid and protection, while a shady Triton cult hire Ashtani to destroy any merfolk citadels on sight. Hey, there's suddenly conflict! Wow, and the opportunity to make profit, and glory, and rare items!

Just spitballing, here.

Shirszae

I think its been said that anything involving Tritons would need for a new Neraeos

Kresslack

Shirszae said:

I think its been said that anything involving Tritons would need for a new Neraeos

Not all of the triton city-states worship Neraeos or even acknowledge him as the lord of the sea, so something could probably be worked out in his absence.

Melodie

There's only one (maybe two? second pretty iffy possibility) faction that don't follow/worship Neraeos, and that's only because they reject him and insist his father is the still rightful god.

I'm sure there can be vauge things (see: the plague event), but Nerry's tritonic lore is pretty damn vast for the more direct interactions. Not sure if they admin would be willing to juggle that crazy. 

Kyrra

Kresslack said:

Shirszae said:

I think its been said that anything involving Tritons would need for a new Neraeos

Not all of the triton city-states worship Neraeos or even acknowledge him as the lord of the sea, so something could probably be worked out in his absence.

I think it's more the fact that Neraeos always controlled them, so whenever he went dormant there stopped being any sort of activity. Part of the package with the role, I think?

Shirszae

Obviously, someone just needs to pick up the role already.

Anaria

Shirszae said:

Obviously, someone just needs to pick up the role already.

This is true of so many dormant Gods who rule over major spheres that it could be its own thread.

Blujixapug

Shirszae said:

Obviously, someone just needs to pick up the role already.

Stepping into those shoes like

Tahquil

'Picking up the role' isn't as easy as it seems. For a start Gods don't like touching other God's denizens because it comes with backstories, personality and lore they have to read over and be familiar with first. Neraeos was a GOD amongst Gods, his stories and denizens were very complex and interwoven and the lore he wrote...

... let's put it this way, you would probably spend more energy and time studying the lore He wrote then actually going out and studying a law degree. Someone taking up the role of Neraeos is going to require ten times the amount of dedication and time than someone picking up any other god role. (Sorry to the gods reading this).

Shirszae

I'd be pretty fine with just about anyone stepping into them. It is all fine and good if you want to just hold onto the past and not have another Neraeos ever, but I'd rather have someone who tries over no one at all.

Anaria

Aren't there alternatives though?

* Perhaps whatever happened to Caspian befell Neraeos as well, either in full or in part. Maybe he is in a trance-like stupor on his throne and may or may not awaken, but in the mean time some other God rises up to take his place directly?

* Perhaps a more active and ambitious divine begins to usurp control of the oceans a piece at a time while the sea God is AFK?

* Or maybe he was just outright killed and the silence this whole time was because his usurper was busy changing everything beneath the waves to suit his or her own ideals.

I know this will sound harsher than I mean it to but... all the original Houses and their decades of lore were wiped away with a hand-wave during the Renaissance. If the barrier to filling an important divine slot really is about the equivalent of a law degree, then maybe it is better to just start fresh? It's no good having a role that takes more time to learn to fill than the time it will actually be actively filled.

Shirszae

If you start killing Divines just because they  are inactive you are going to end up with a very small roster of them.  I mean, in a way thats what happened with Balmet and etc, but every God goes dormant every now and then. I don't know how complex the lore really is, but for the most part I just wish someone gave it a try instead of thinking the shoes are too big to fill.

If people don't like the vision of the new volunteer they can just go somewhere else. I am willing to bet that no matter what, more people would appreciate it than not.

Kiet

Shirszae said:

I'd be pretty fine with just about anyone stepping into them. It is all fine and good if you want to just hold onto the past and not have another Neraeos ever, but I'd rather have someone who tries over no one at all.

I mean as far as I know you're not a lifelong Neraeos worshiper on your character so maybe that affects why you feel this way while the actual people in his order feel otherwise.

Melodie

Shirszae said:

If you start killing Divines just because they  are inactive you are going to end up with a very small roster of them.  I mean, in a way thats what happened with Balmet and etc, but every God goes dormant every now and then. I don't know how complex the lore really is, but for the most part I just wish someone gave it a try instead of thinking the shoes are too big to fill.

If people don't like the vision of the new volunteer they can just go somewhere else. I am willing to bet that no matter what, more people would appreciate it than not.

Pretty sure absolutely none of us are arguing that the role shouldn't be filled. Anyone who does (or used to) follow Nerry would be positively ecstatic if someone was willing to learn and take up the role. Pretty sure we'd all throw parties (if secretly be worried what will this new one be like oh god).

We're just also practical and understanding that it isn't going to appeal to very many celani looking to picking a role. It's a lot of extra work, usually unpaid work on top of that, when instead you could pick a role with less baggage/more ability to mold yourself.

I'd love to interact with tritons (and Neraeos!) again. I love the lore and the world. I just also understand how hard for any of the admin (as before mentioned, none of the currently active roles ever mess with another god's realm that isn't their own) to take up.

Shirszae

Kiet said:

Shirszae said:

I'd be pretty fine with just about anyone stepping into them. It is all fine and good if you want to just hold onto the past and not have another Neraeos ever, but I'd rather have someone who tries over no one at all.

I mean as far as I know you're not a lifelong Neraeos worshiper on your character so maybe that affects why you feel this way while the actual people in his order feel otherwise.

So? I find it hard to believe even someone like that would prefer Neraeos to continue being afk so to speak. its pretty much the way I see Scarlatti too. Scarlatti was awesome and the likeliness, at least to me, of meeting someone else who was as awesome is slim, but I'd dearly love for anyone who feels they can fill the role to try their hands at it over just leaving it empty. Sure it might no be the same technically speaking, but I am fairly sure the sentiment is pretty similar.

Sena

Anaria said:

Aren't there alternatives though?

* Perhaps whatever happened to Caspian befell Neraeos as well, either in full or in part. Maybe he is in a trance-like stupor on his throne and may or may not awaken, but in the mean time some other God rises up to take his place directly?

* Perhaps a more active and ambitious divine begins to usurp control of the oceans a piece at a time while the sea God is AFK?

* Or maybe he was just outright killed and the silence this whole time was because his usurper was busy changing everything beneath the waves to suit his or her own ideals.

I know this will sound harsher than I mean it to but... all the original Houses and their decades of lore were wiped away with a hand-wave during the Renaissance. If the barrier to filling an important divine slot really is about the equivalent of a law degree, then maybe it is better to just start fresh? It's no good having a role that takes more time to learn to fill than the time it will actually be actively filled.

From what I understand, I don't think killing Neraeos will change the issue in the slightest. The huge amount of lore that's been built up and the effort required to pick it back up is the issue. It's probably not worth the effort without someone wanting to take over Neraeos; getting rid of Neraeos still means that someone has to put the effort in regardless. The only way it might make a difference is if someone really wants to pick up the triton (and related things) lore/storylines, but is dead-set against actually being Neraeos.

Tahquil

Anyone picking up the Neraeos role and fucking it it would be shamed into a cowering ball under their bed, if not lynched.  As for writing over it and starting from scratch what is going to happen to those 20+ separate triton denizens? It would be like painting over the sistine chapel because Michelangelo is around to touch it up every now and again.

As for Caspian, the god was pretty much ruined because of OOC dealings. I don't think there was much of a chance to salvage a reputation as him.

Kiet

Shirszae said:

Kiet said:

Shirszae said:

I'd be pretty fine with just about anyone stepping into them. It is all fine and good if you want to just hold onto the past and not have another Neraeos ever, but I'd rather have someone who tries over no one at all.

I mean as far as I know you're not a lifelong Neraeos worshiper on your character so maybe that affects why you feel this way while the actual people in his order feel otherwise.

So? I find it hard to believe even someone like that would prefer Neraeos to continue being afk so to speak. its pretty much the way I see Scarlatti too. Scarlatti was awesome and the likeliness, at least to me, of meeting someone else who was as awesome is slim, but I'd dearly love for anyone who feels they can fill the role to try their hands at it over just leaving it empty. Sure it might no be the same technically speaking, but I am fairly sure the sentiment is pretty similar.

There's been like 3 Scarlattis and none of them had the amount of stuff to catch up on that Neraeos does. It's a bad comparison and you're not really reading what people are saying.

Skye

Shirszae said:

I'd be pretty fine with just about anyone stepping into them. It is all fine and good if you want to just hold onto the past and not have another Neraeos ever, but I'd rather have someone who tries over no one at all.

The same advice for a desperate 40 year old spinster: low standards are not the solution!  

Anaria

Tahquil said:

Anyone picking up the Neraeos role and fucking it it would be shamed into a cowering ball under their bed, if not lynched.  As for writing over it and starting from scratch what is going to happen to those 20+ separate triton denizens? It would be like painting over the sistine chapel because Michelangelo is around to touch it up every now and again.

Its pretty hard for me to see anything written down on Achaea as being particularly sacred after the Renaissance. 

How many players have actually got that aforementioned "law degree"? I can definitely understand and appreciate that those steeped in the Neraeos/Triton lore would be upset by discrepancies. That being said, it seems like that is a small number of people relative to those who would be overjoyed to have an active divine for such a major an area of the game.

As an aside, how long has Neraeos been AWOL anyway? A month? A year? Two years? I honestly don't know and this isn't a rhetorical question. All I do know is, I've been playing since 2014 and never seen a hint of him or anything related to the Tritons and I spend 100% of my game time on the ocean. So my point is, if it takes 2 years to train up a Celani, and however long to train that new Celani to be the new Neraeos, and the process doesn't even start until the existing Neraeos has been deemed "gone" for whatever length of time is long enough... then this is definitely one case where more is not better when it comes to the lore. And if only four or five people really know it all anyway...

Jarrod

This thread has turned into another in a long trend of "People who don't understand the Celani/new God process". There are never guaranteed to be filled roles. The admin will never force people to play roles they don't want because they want their volunteers to enjoy the game and keep volunteering. They also have high standards, and people who aspire to a God have to know a lot about the God role so they can effectively pass as the God even including things done by previous players. They have to have a general knowledge of what previous players in that role did, who they connected with, whether there were any unsolved lines of RP, etc. They might not require specifics (I have nfi if there's a thesis paper due or just a 'check here once you've read') but they certainly hold their volunteers to high standards.

This isn't just a 'who wants to be Neraeos? Ok you got it' situation. The game's story has long continuity and an actually engaging element because of those high standards, we really don't want them dropping them as much as we all wish <X> God was suddenly around.

Melodie

Anaria said:

As an aside, how long has Neraeos been AWOL anyway? A month? A year? Two years? I honestly don't know and this isn't a rhetorical question. All I do know is, I've been playing since 2014 and never seen a hint of him or anything related to the Tritons and I spend 100% of my game time on the ocean. So my point is, if it takes 2 years to train up a Celani, and however long to train that new Celani to be the new Neraeos, and the process doesn't even start until the existing Neraeos has been deemed "gone" for whatever length of time is long enough... then this is definitely one case where more is not better when it comes to the lore. And if only four or five people really know it all anyway...

• He's been gone the better part of two years.
• "Playing since 2014 and never seen him" in a game that's existed for closing in on two decades doesn't say much. Neraeos was one of the most well-respected Gods in Achaea's entire history. He played his role (and his role alone, by the way - it was always his) for over ten years. And not just an "on again off again" typing playing; he actively contributed on a consistent basis to his lore during that time period.
• As Jarrod said, God roles aren't forced, they're chosen by the celani/demis in question. If they can prove they have the knowledge, desire and motivation, anyone going through the training could get the role, in theory. I imagine it would take longer than your typical celani training, however.
• Quality over quantity.

Skye

Nerry was played by the same player for nearly as many years as I've been playing Achaea.  That was nearly a decade worth of consistent interaction and lore development.This wasn't limited to Order only but cities and other nautical organizations such as the PoM. We're really not kidding when we say he has a track record not likely to be followed or beaten easily.

You can't compare completely retconning a God's realm with the Renaissance either. No matter what happened with the Ren, the history of the Houses still remain. If you just decide to dig into a God's Lore without being properly primed and informed, then we're bound to wind up with an uncomfortable scenario of

"weren't you dead?"
"I was? Guess I got better."
"but we held a funeral and everything! "
"silence heretic!"

Kresslack

I'm not sure what the circumstances were behind the original volunteer's departure (hopefully nothing bad), but there are possible work-arounds to the current absence, such as introducing an usurper until a proper replacement comes along to 'reclaim' the sea realm. Or, if it's thought that the role could not effectively be filled by any other than the original, they could dissolve it altogether, such as the case with Clementius, thus paving the way for a new upstart.

I'm not sure how it will (or should be) handled, but I do know that a committed and qualified candidate would be needed, and at the very least, any activity and changes regarding the seas are possibly better than none at all.