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Comments
This feeds the continious cycle for some people within Achaea aswell, some even ignoring (or getting very angry) at the suggestion of seeking out help or talking to a specialist.
Some people also shy away from forcing this help onto them because of the fear they'll lose a friend
Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."
As was said by a number of people in the MKO thread: Why do you care what two (or more, I guess, judging by WHO sometimes) people want to do in private with one another?
I'm pretty sure it's not up to you to define what is and isn't RP to those people. If you don't like/agree with/do it, that's fine. But you don't really get to dictate what RP is either way. If it's IC, then it's RP plain and simple.
Actual IC actions ("actual RP") have no OOC consequences. Our characters can murder, steal, torture, pillage from each other with no repercussion to our player lives, because our character's actions don't reflect our literal desires or intentions, as players.
Conversely, mudsex and the like can result in the very serious and unfortunate situations already mentioned in this thread... situations where real people feel threatened in their real lives, and other real people get held accountable in the real world for their actions.
And that's possible because most mudsex encounters have no IC/OOC barrier -- the real sexual desires of the player are manifested directly into their characters.
Have you seen 99% of mudsex encounters, or are you just pulling numbers out of your ass?
Mudsex doesn't have to be done just because one is horny OOC, you know? What even. I know a number of people who don't do what you're implying.
Jfc, 2015 and people still have this mindset.
Never do anything you're ashamed of people finding out. The thing about mudsex is that, like real life, you're basically providing the other party with ammo. It's a recording of you being all (textually) naked and vulnerable and reveals a side of you (or your character) that very often you'd keep hidden. What would people say if the Tyrannus liked being strapped to a bed and flogged with mayo coated asparagus? Or that the Speaker likes humping watermelons? Or any number of text enabled fetishes. You can claim innocence as much as you like, but it could very well be that one day, relationships change and the person you were educating about nipple clamps and synonyms for penis becomes someone who has an axe to grind. And they might not be as reserved about their sex life as you are.
I started playing Achaea when I was 17. And like many young teens who started playing, I got involved in a lot of mudsex and some of it got messy. That's a fact. Even though I don't actually mudsex anymore, I can't take that part of my character's past away so I just roll with it instead of pretending to be prim.
From my experience also I've learned how easy it is for people to get emotionally attached to their RP relationships. it's a thing that you wise up to with experience and just learn to laugh, but sometimes not at all. A good portion of 'relationship drama' seems to stem from RP couples who mudsex. It's amazing to hear some people talk about those RP relationships so jealously or protectively, you wouldn't think they were married RL or anything.
Achaea has slavery, graphic killings, theft, murdering childen, (Orphanage of Loving Hearts,) a brothel, sacrificing people to demons, cannibalism, drug use and drug dealing, alcohol and tobacco use, beheading, heads on pikes, pacts with evil entities, Satan-worshipping, (Sartan and Satan are different by one letter and the concept is not that different,) and so on. Beds are sold for reasons nobody really needs to guess.
I think with the level of maturity needed for Achaea, policing for sexuality does not make sense. There are people who don't like this concept about Achaea, but honestly this is just not a Brady Bunch game, and while I am sure there are 11 year olds here, I doubt they are very loud about it. If a person doesn't like content catering to older more mature people, I don't think this game should be changed for them, and I can't really ever see those changes happening.
If you want to be a well renowned warrior for justice that's great. If you want to be a well renowned warrior for justice that's believes he is great in the text sack, good for you. I would personally go for moderation in the case of text sex, but that's just me. I don't think everyone into text sex is in it purely for the arousal. Consider that live porn is literally free and one click away at any moment. If your character is romantically into another character and you want to express that on an adult level then go for it.
I have always thought of text sex as more of a bonding experience than actually being aroused. But again, there are always gonna be the freaky deaky's standing buck naked at Minia with a 6 paragraph description that proves some people live for this stuff. In reality though, it is what it is, and if mud sex were banned in Achaea the population would probably be looking like Imperian up in here.
If players consummate their characters' marriage, with decidedly less boorish choices for imagery, then WHATEVER. That's not what I necessarily file as "mudsex".
Though it's nice to see you walk back your rhetoric.
2) ^ this. I am baffled by the number of people who don't wholly understand and embrace this. Other people only have, or assume, the power and control in this situation -that you allow them-. My mind cannot quite grasp the concept of someone legitimately getting blackmailed OOCly by something so genuinely trivial as a mudsex log. If you are ashamed that you are doing something, you should not be doing it.
Also, I ruefully shake my head at the stigma that seems to surround mudsex, too. Given that Achaea is, essentially, a mirror of mortal existence and emotion, why shouldn't sex(uality) be part of it? Just like in the -real world-, different people do it at different times for different reasons. Okay, move along folks, nothing to see here!
Best time to test my e-scissors.
Mudsex definitely isn't the only situation where people are hurt/affected OOC or where real feelings bleed through, causing problems. That's a problem with roleplaying romantic/intimate relationships in general, some players get far too emotionally attached to (and often possessive of) their IC lovers, or one side imagines that the relationship is more than just RP and actually exists outside of the game as well. Mudsex doesn't particularly exacerbate the problem and, on its own (in the absence of any continuing relationship with the other person), doesn't usually cause such problems. Even if mudsex was magically removed from the game and never took place again, there would still be plenty of OOC consequences and even blackmail. The only problem that's strongly tied to mudsex specifically is sexual harassment (including RL issues such as soliciting minors), and to a much lesser extent there's the potential impact to a player's reputation (though that's only a problem because of how mudsex is stigmatised).
Along the same lines, it's a huge exaggeration to say that 99% (or even 80%) of mudsex is purely motivated by OOC sexual desires and isn't IC. Even if you only count sex alts who exist for no other purpose besides mudsex, a lot of them still develop a character distinct from themselves with a particular personality and consistent characterisation, which sounds a lot like roleplaying to me, even if you find the specific style of RP distasteful. And sex alts probably don't even account for half of all mudsex (just the majority of what you're likely to randomly stumble across), a lot of it is done by established players, including well-respected roleplayers and leaders. I used to be a rather prolific spy and ended up seeing quite a lot of mudsex, and the majority of it seemed to be entirely IC (if poorly-written and kind of juvenile; but still RP, regardless of quality), and I've seen a lot of OOC motivations for it besides pure masturbation fodder. I've also done it myself (a lot of it when I was younger, when I was around 15 it was easily a couple times a week; rarely these days, the last time was in January), and have never broken character for mudsex. It's not even that unusual for me to not get aroused at all by it.
How is it fundamentally different from any other more casual/mundane RP (as opposed to momentous high-fantasy things, like conflicts between the forces of Chaos and Good or leading a city) like small-scale family RP or just casual conversations and interactions? Something doesn't need to have any significant impact on the world (or even on the characters involved) to be RP. I do agree that there's basically no situation where mudsex can help develop a character in a way that you couldn't otherwise do, it can usually be replaced with a "fade to black" or just suggestion without really losing anything. Even if you want to seriously roleplay a prostitute or play a character who uses sex to get power/influence, doing it without any mudsex would often work better. But that doesn't in any way suggest that mudsex isn't RP, or that it isn't a valid way of developing a character, it's a perfectly valid option if people find it enjoyable. And to the bolded, mudsex often fits with that just fine.
I have found it more difficult to enjoy mudsex as I got older, for a variety of reasons. The potential irl age of people hitting on me does cross my mind and i make it a point to talk about responsibility if i was going to get involved. There are also times and places for it. 18 y.o. newbies should probably be focusing on other things, and certain people should probably be a bit more classy about it.
I tend to make sure everyone involved is okay with it as players and that they understand that it is a selfish affair. If someone says no then it is not going to happen. Being generous for sexual exploitation or pressuring people into feeling like they owe it to you as described by the OP is basically rape in my opinion.
If two (or more) people agree and want to do it, it is no big deal and it should not be a big deal.
Some people like broccoli which i find weird and distasteful. Some people like to roleplay black people. I like to roleplay a closet racist. Some people like to roleplay chronic smokers or alcoholics. Sometimes it may seem pointless or offensive or silly. A lot of things have no real depth beyond the depth we give it. Sex is no different in my opinion.
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One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important
Another point is that mudsex can add to the story, but it's up to the players to make it fit, and not be a casual sex encounter that's more inspired for OOC reasons. I personally enjoy small, romantic RP moments more than actual mudsex, and I do smile as a player when Exel leaves flowers or writes a short poem for Alrena to find. Doesn't mean the relationship is OOC!
People just need to accept that everyone enjoys different flavours of RP, just like we have different tastes about everything else, whether that's sex, torture or romance. All of those can be used responsibly, or irresponsibly.
I think most of the good stuff has been said in one form or another, but some people want more substance, so I figured I'd throw my two cents in. As a warning, it's rather long, as it's the culmination of a good deal of my thoughts on the matter.
I first engaged in mudsex when I was sixteen and continued to do so as a minor afterwards. Everything was consensual, I played no small part in initiating it, and the other people involved remain friends of mine to this day. Honestly, I'm more then glad that I did it like that, as I think that Achaea provided a safe space to experiment and that it definitely benefited me as a person. Obviously lots of stories end worse then this, but this is just to show that they don't have to.
That was years ago, and these days I still participate in sexual roleplay on a not infrequent basis. It's an aspect of the game that I enjoy and find interesting, and while I understand if it's not someone's cup of tea (and strive to keep it away from anyone who doesn't want to be involved), some of the arguments getting made against it just seem laughable. For instance:
Mudsex inherently has no IC/OOC divide:
Seriously? This is the internet. If I wanted IRL arousal, I'd find any of the almost literally unlimited amount of porn/erotica/whatever that's out there. I definitely wouldn't spend hours writing long-form emotes with several minute gaps in them (I usually read the news or a book or something while waiting for responses), that would just be stupid. I enjoy sexual roleplay almost entirely for the writing and the interaction between characters, so for the same reasons as I enjoy other forms of rp in this game, in other words.
Mudsex always stems from ooc desire:
I'll be the first to admit that no one would engage in erotic stuff if they had no interest in it, and that I suspect most characters will at least trend towards their player's sexual interests. That said, my characters also tend to gravitate towards scholarly interests and are all somewhat into combat, because those are things that interest me OOC and so I enjoy thinking about them. People always tend to do things that interest them as a player, because that's what makes the game fun. Further, my characters have different sexualities/sexual interests/levels of sexual interest then I do as a person, differing them from me the same way as anything else. In the end, human sexuality is interesting for me OOC, so I enjoy playing around with it the same as I do other IG interests.
Mudsex can't contribute to characterization:
I feel like anyone who claims this is bad at this either in game or in real life. I know that personally, all of my characters relate to sex and sexuality differently, and part of what I enjoy is seeing how their sexuality, choices in partners, and personality come together, as well as how that all affects their romantic relationships. But more importantly, sexuality is a huge part of how people identify in the real world, I have no idea why one would claim it couldn't be for a character. Such a amount of thought, effort, and feelings go into human sexuality, and so much personality can be expressed with real people that I'd honestly venture that even if you don't like the rp itself, you've left out an important part of your character if you don't know how they think about sex or how they'd act in the bedroom.
Mudsex is simply not rp and is bad for the game world:
This really seems to express a pretty puritanical concept of sex's place in the world. Human history is full of sex being incredibly important. It's written into myths, religions, literature, and cultural norms, it's legislated, debated, and persecuted over. It's foundational to relationships and something that almost everyone is interested in having as a part of their life. Claiming that it's somehow bad as roleplay just on a general level seems like trying to deny a foundational part of the human condition from a game world designed to immersively emulate it. Relationship and family rp is a major established part of the game, to boot. It's incredibly weird to me that people want to roleplay sexual characters in sexual relationships as well as the results of that that sex, but then start getting squeamish when the question of actually roleplaying the actions themselves come up.
Really, these sorts of attitudes are just an extension of IRL social taboos against sexual content. As has been noted, this is a game where incredibly dark things are written into the game world. Heck, Mhaldor has public torture rp, and the instant kills tend to be incredibly brutal. That people seem so much more comfortable with depictions of massive violence rather then frank depictions of sexuality, both here and in the rest of society, is just one quirk of culture that I hope fades away.
To be clear, as with anything sexual, there's definitely potential for hurt and damage. People who are soliciting novices or try and do stuff non consensually should be banned hard, let alone the more nasty shit (ooc harassment and the like) that unfortunately seems to come up. Ideally, no one should ever experience this sort of content if they don't want to, and that's hugely important for younger and new players.
For those of us who responsibly enjoy that side of the game, though? It's really nobody else's business, and is as legitimate as anything else in this game.
1) I don't know why anyone cares about other peoples' mudsex. The fact that they care is the only thing that gives it the ability to impact them, not the fact that it's happening. If someone does care about other peoples' mudsex that much, I tend to assume they're just like the church ladies that told me I'm a whore and I'm going to hell, when I was six years old, because I was wearing pink nail polish.
2) Being greeted, flirted with, or even propositioned by someone is not harassment. Not once, not twice. What's harassment is when one person pays special and unwanted attention to another, not just unwanted. A harassing party puts effort into what's making the harassed party uncomfortable, over a period of time. If the harassment can be settled with a "no, thank you" or a "I'm not interested" then it's not actually harassment. When people get all knotted up over a casual greeting, even if it is dripping with proposition, I tend to assume they enjoy the attention given to victims. When they take it a step further and cause or encourage others to cause discomfort to that person because of the perceived offense, that is intentional harassment. The reason flirting can be harassment on the first attempt in the real world is because the person simply committing the act can convey the threat of penalty for reluctance, even without intending to, such as in a workplace, school, or law enforcement.
3) Accusations of non-consenting rape IG can be readily ignored. QQ is a thing, and nobody would ever fault someone for using it to escape that particular IC situation, including the garden, and I'm sure @Sarapis would back me up on that. If not QQ, there are any number of other options, such as 'tell rurin can someone move me please because I'm trapped on a ship with someone who is trying to do sexual things I really don't want to do and they refuse to let me leave' or simply not reading the incoming emotes. Being trapped in a place where you can't leave and nobody you know can come get you is the worst case scenario that would warrant calling the attention of an admin to rescue you. I've been spirited away from a ship by an admin before. No big deal. And they went ahead and made it so you can't force someone to board a ship anymore, too.
4) Minors represent a situation where achaean rape is real, even if they are consenting. Don't do it. Find an adult player and have them act like they're 12 if you must. That's between you and your friend. Involving an actual minor does harmful things to their emotional development in ways that they won't realise until they're older.
5) I don't think mudsex is OOC at all. Whenever I've done it, it's involved fantastical things like class skills, racial traits, ritual, conflict, and so on. If I can't use my imagination and do something that wouldn't happen IRL, I don't want it. I used to do it regularly with one person and we'd be talking on skype the whole time, and no, not voice sex, but falling over in fits of giggles at the fantastical things we were coming up with. If this is someone's reality, wow, I'm so sorry.