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Bacon and RP

BoosteyaBoosteya
edited October 2015 in The Scarlattan Theatre
Inspired by this thread in MKO forums, and having memories of many conversations regarding mudsex in this forum (especially God comments that they hated finding people engaged in it), I wanted to bring that thread's poll here, but apparently I don't have that option.

The fact that mudsex is so prevalent in IRE games, makes me wonder if IRE should have an 18+ game where that's allowed but ICly discouraged, and/or for mudsex to simply be not allowed in the games that allow minors. As in, if you're caught mudsexing, consequence. (Gods maybe give an STD? Gods have given punishments before. Maybe it's not commumicable, but... dissuasion is dissuasion.)

Achaea has historically had at least one child who was age 8 when she signed up. The one I have in mind is well over 13 now, and seldom plays anymore - but there are probably more.

Newbie females are almost universally solicited for sex. Possibly some newbie males as well; I've heard stuff, but all secondhand accounts, therefore hearsay.

I've noticed that a few select people are very generous to female newbies with a strong sense of entitlement.

I've had discussions with a fellow player regarding Achaea, mudsex, and 18+. As I recall, she seemed to agree with me regarding the fact that it should be looked into - but whatever her opinion (or yours), I prefer people speak for themselves. We all know I never hesitate to do so! :tongue:

I wonder what other people think. I realise that no matter what folks think, nothing along these lines will happen unless it's IRE people that decide to do whatever stuff. Even so, I figure a thread for it can't hinder.

tl;dr: Mudsex is not RP: agree or disagree? Please discuss.
Miin-aan baash kimini-sij-i-gan bitooyin sij-i-gan-i bukwayszhiigan = blueberry π
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Comments

  • MithridatesMithridates
    Most definitely not rp.

  • AnedhelAnedhel
    edited October 2015
    Seems a bit weird to take administrative action for sexual themes, when robbery, murder, heresy, etc. are totally fine. I've never really understood why people can't just let others play the game however they want; this doesn't just include mudsex. This idea that the game has to be 'policed' or that people are playing 'wrong' always stands out as nuts to me.

    Obviously, if a player is under 18 IRL and all that, fine. Or if someone's deliberately looking for underage players, etc. etc.

    Else- why is it anyone else's business? And what does it matter, frankly?

    Extra note: If people are being harassed, most instances I've seen/heard of, Cities defend their own pretty quickly and come down on the harasser like a ton of bricks- I think Cities do a pretty decent job of it 9/10 times it's reported.

    ETA: Regarding the OP: like anything else, it's a question of how you do it. If you remain immersed, and it contributes to the development of your character, sure. If it's just for the sake of gratification, then, probably not. But that goes with everything; some people open their characters' mouths and OOC opinions and information comes spilling out. So that's not roleplay, either.
  • TharvisTharvis The Land of Beer and Chocolate!
    @Vansittart the last part of your post raises but a single question : how would you know the other play is under-age if they do not answer the question, or lie about it?
    Granted, it is possible there needs to be a more outspoken admin stance on this - depends on how the legal system works and if the MUD can be held responsible as accessory to 'violation of a minor' if a parent complains/sues. I vaguely recall having read something like that
    Aurora says, "Tharvis, why are you always breaking things?!"
    Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
    Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."

  • VansittartVansittart
    You can't - which is why the whole tenor of my post is encouraging the playerbase to be very sensitive to that risk, and hoping that the admin ensure sufficient protections are in place.
  • AnedhelAnedhel
    edited October 2015
    Anedhel said:

    Obviously, if a player is under 18 IRL and all that, fine. Or if someone's deliberately looking for underage players, etc. etc.

    Else- why is it anyone else's business? And what does it matter, frankly?

    I uh... did say in the case of underage players being harassed/solicited, I am absolutely, 100% for admin enforcement of a no-sexual-themes rule. Harassment, as well, is a good reason to have admin sanctions. But the point of this thread (apart, ostensibly, from predator discouragement, which I'm very much in favour of) is that sex is somehow not valid roleplay, and has no place in Achaea, which I absolutely disagree with, because sex, like any other facet of human relationships, is a good way to develop a personality.

    ETA: Specifically the 'If you get caught doing adult-themed stuff you'll get admin punished' mentioned in the OP.
  • KayeilKayeil Washington State
    I don't care what adults do. I have often wondered about how often minors get engaged in this kind of thing. Have met plenty of players who talk about wanting to let their children (when they're old enough to play) and younger siblings to join Achaea, which I've always been concerned about knowing different areas of this game might be inappropriate. Is age of consent age 18 in most countries? Are there some where it's higher? I imagine there might be some where it's lower. Then there's the thing where a person of a certain age might be of age to consent in their country, but not in the country of the other player. I don't know about other people, but I always feel uncomfortable RPing with people that I found out to be quite a bit younger than me in any circumstance. There's usually already a difference in maturity in how they handle themselves. Not to mention, though they're entitled to their issues and problems of their age group, I always feel weird when they try to come to me with them because I just don't really relate. I'd like to say most people I know in Achaea RP differently with the players of younger age groups than they do with the ones of older age groups.
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

  • KryptonKrypton shi-Khurena
    edited October 2015
    Is it possible to roleplay mudsex in such a way that it represents only an Achaean character's interests, and not yours (the player's)?

    I don't believe so.
  • KryptonKrypton shi-Khurena
    edited October 2015
    If I have a character bash for experience, quest for gold, build an in-game item, pursue a position of power, I the player am not making the same real-life gains, nor am I even attempting to. (Like you mention, the enjoyment of the player is diverse from what the character gets.)

    But with mudsex, I can't imagine engaging in it with a motivation other than: The player wants to achieve arousal, too, and is getting it through corresponding gratification in a digital puppet.
  • KayeilKayeil Washington State
    I think there was a thread in the past about the possibility of a character using it for self-gain to earn power.

    This one I think?

    http://forums.achaea.com/discussion/3409/sleeping-to-the-top/p1

    I suppose that's one way without it being purely for arousal purposes.
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo Domingo
    edited October 2015
    I fail to see the point of drawing lines in that particular regard. We do most of what we do with our character because it is satisfying for us on an out-of-character level. Be it the roleplaying of a simple scene as a bard in a corner of the local tavern who fortuitously has an unexpected encounter, or the pursual of political power in your city, or even just the adrenaline rush of killing three people in a row before someone finally manages to kill you, its all for satisfaction that might well mirror that of your character, but does not necessarily have to.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • KryptonKrypton shi-Khurena
    edited October 2015
    Kayeil said:
    I think there was a thread in the past about the possibility of a character using it for self-gain to earn power.

    This one I think?

    http://forums.achaea.com/discussion/3409/sleeping-to-the-top/p1

    I suppose that's one way without it being purely for arousal purposes.
    Yes, if you have a committed character around that, I could see it.

    But when you're on a throwaway alt, or let your main get frisky, I think at that point you're having your character take on your exact OOC desires and act on them.
  • AnedhelAnedhel
    Krypton said:
    If I have a character bash for experience, quest for gold, build an in-game item, pursue a position of power, I the player am not making the same real-life gains, nor am I even attempting to. (Like you mention, the enjoyment of the player is diverse from what the character gets.)

    But with mudsex, I can't imagine engaging in it with a motivation other than: The player wants to achieve arousal, too, and is getting it through corresponding gratification in a digital puppet.
    So you've never felt proud, winning a duel when your character does? You've never felt important in a leadership position? Stressed, when you're up against a deadline in-game? You've never felt a bit sappy, spending time with family, in-game? This is a super blurry line, and I can't imagine you've thought this one through enough, if you say there's a total disassociation between what you and your character feel.
  • KryptonKrypton shi-Khurena
    Shirszae said:
    Be it the roleplaying of a simple scene as a bard in a corner of the local tavern who fortuitously has an unexpected encounter, or the pursual of political power in your city, or even just the adrenaline rush of killing three people in a row before someone finally manages to kill you, its all for satisfaction that might well mirror that of your character, but does not necessarily have to.
    In these scenarios, your character did that something. Not you. You are happy for them sure, and what they achieved was reliant on you the player's ability, but there's still a distinction in what you did, and what your character did.

    As far as mudsex goes, I see it as: You put on a digital costume, then engage in what could liberally fall under the definition of sex.
  • LyrLyr
    Kafziel said:
    live and let live

    edit:
    Mithridates said:
    Most definitely not rp.
    And if anybody knows RP, it's this guy
    Says the guy who stroked a female friend's cheek IG.
  • MithridatesMithridates
    Kafziel said:

    Mithridates said:
    Most definitely not rp.
    And if anybody knows RP, it's this guy
    I think I'm pretty good at my rp. But you'd probably know better than me. 

  • AlcaroAlcaro
    as someone who's below eighteen and has engaged in mudsex in the past, i personally think it's up to the player. if they're willing and think they're mature enough to handle it, then sure, go for it. just don't enter into it lightly and make sure you set up clear boundaries prior.

    because i'm also someone who was once solicited by a wealthy, older male player to exchange nudes for credits, i think i have a good idea of the consequences that can follow reckless behavior and bad judgement. my parents never found out, thankfully, but i can assure you: there's nothing they could've said to make me feel worse about it when it was all said and done. i found out that said player was engaged and still wanted the nudes and it was then that i realized the gravity of what i'd gotten myself into.

    looking back on that time still makes me feel sick to my stomach. even after i'd cut ties from the player in every way, i still suffered from the consequences. i couldn't look at myself in the mirror. i was disgusted with what i'd done and i took a long hiatus from achaea to regroup.
    Kayeil said:
    I don't care what adults do. I have often wondered about how often minors get engaged in this kind of thing. Have met plenty of players who talk about wanting to let their children (when they're old enough to play) and younger siblings to join Achaea, which I've always been concerned about knowing different areas of this game might be inappropriate. Is age of consent age 18 in most countries? Are there some where it's higher? I imagine there might be some where it's lower. Then there's the thing where a person of a certain age might be of age to consent in their country, but not in the country of the other player. I don't know about other people, but I always feel uncomfortable RPing with people that I found out to be quite a bit younger than me in any circumstance. There's usually already a difference in maturity in how they handle themselves. Not to mention, though they're entitled to their issues and problems of their age group, I always feel weird when they try to come to me with them because I just don't really relate. I'd like to say most people I know in Achaea RP differently with the players of younger age groups than they do with the ones of older age groups.
    minors get engaged in games where the vast majority of the playerbase is 18+ because they feel like they're mature enough to handle it. sometimes they lie about their age. hell, i've done it. not as much thesedays, since i'm finally sixteen, but i still have to occasionally lie where entrance is barred because of my age.

    there is usually a difference in how us younger folk handle ourselves. it's because our brains are still developing and stuff. we feel emotions way stronger than adults and often act rashly.

    noted: never complain to kayeil about your poor unsocialized broke 16yr/old homeschooler woes.
    (XXXX): Peak says, "You worry me."
  • AlcaroAlcaro
    Boosteya said:
    Alcaro said:
    looking back on that time still makes me feel sick to my stomach.
    I think you're brave to mention it, especially with this queasiness. I wanted to comment here that I 'awesomed' your post not because I think the situation was awesome, but that your comment in and of itself was awesome.
      well, it's not like i didn't know what i was doing at the time. i thought: "oh, an easy way to make credits." but i was soo wrong. using your underage body as a bartering chip to a guy you don't know is unhealthy, dangerous, and just wrong on so many levels. i know that now, at least.

    i mostly mentioned it in the hopes that someone will see it and won't make the same mistakes i did.
    (XXXX): Peak says, "You worry me."
  • KayeilKayeil Washington State
    Alcaro said:
    as someone who's below eighteen and has engaged in mudsex in the past, i personally think it's up to the player. if they're willing and think they're mature enough to handle it, then sure, go for it. just don't enter into it lightly and make sure you set up clear boundaries prior.

    because i'm also someone who was once solicited by a wealthy, older male player to exchange nudes for credits, i think i have a good idea of the consequences that can follow reckless behavior and bad judgement. my parents never found out, thankfully, but i can assure you: there's nothing they could've said to make me feel worse about it when it was all said and done. i found out that said player was engaged and still wanted the nudes and it was then that i realized the gravity of what i'd gotten myself into.

    looking back on that time still makes me feel sick to my stomach. even after i'd cut ties from the player in every way, i still suffered from the consequences. i couldn't look at myself in the mirror. i was disgusted with what i'd done and i took a long hiatus from achaea to regroup.
    Kayeil said:
    I don't care what adults do. I have often wondered about how often minors get engaged in this kind of thing. Have met plenty of players who talk about wanting to let their children (when they're old enough to play) and younger siblings to join Achaea, which I've always been concerned about knowing different areas of this game might be inappropriate. Is age of consent age 18 in most countries? Are there some where it's higher? I imagine there might be some where it's lower. Then there's the thing where a person of a certain age might be of age to consent in their country, but not in the country of the other player. I don't know about other people, but I always feel uncomfortable RPing with people that I found out to be quite a bit younger than me in any circumstance. There's usually already a difference in maturity in how they handle themselves. Not to mention, though they're entitled to their issues and problems of their age group, I always feel weird when they try to come to me with them because I just don't really relate. I'd like to say most people I know in Achaea RP differently with the players of younger age groups than they do with the ones of older age groups.
    minors get engaged in games where the vast majority of the playerbase is 18+ because they feel like they're mature enough to handle it. sometimes they lie about their age. hell, i've done it. not as much thesedays, since i'm finally sixteen, but i still have to occasionally lie where entrance is barred because of my age.

    there is usually a difference in how us younger folk handle ourselves. it's because our brains are still developing and stuff. we feel emotions way stronger than adults and often act rashly.

    noted: never complain to kayeil about your poor unsocialized broke 16yr/old homeschooler woes.
    I'm sure there are some that more mature than their general age group, and I don't mind general ranting, but when they come to me wanting to cut themselves amongst other things because their parents wouldn't let them do this or that... those are just issues I am not wanting to handle or get involved in, especially when they're overly emotional and react way too strongly and deeply to things that every kid goes through. I mean, sorry your parents don't give in to your every want, but you don't need to go cut yourself or threaten suicide. That's just what I mean, you know? I've had some bad experiences meeting younger people in this game where they're extremely clingy and go and do things like that.
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

  • KayeilKayeil Washington State
    Sarapis said:
    It's true that we don't like walking in on people having mudsex or seeing it in a log, that doesn't mean we have any objection to doing it. You think we don't know why you guys buy beds?

    Half-jokingly, there's a practical benefit that mudsex is a thing: There is no greater way to ensure that the very few admin that have the power to pull a player's log would ever want to look at them is knowing what we might find in them. It's like an extra privacy layer, because we really really don't want to have to see that shit. ;)

    More seriously, sex is an important part of many peoples' lives, so I don't think it's objectionable or surprising that it's a big part of some people's virtual lives too. 

    I'll also add that there's no legal concern (in the US at least, where it matters to us) over minors on this issue, provided it's not an adult trying to lure a minor into a real-life meeting. We have cooperated with the FBI before over that particular issue, and we will happily do so again.





    I'd always wondered how you guys handled that or if you did at all, and am glad to hear you do. Especially since I know of some cases where this has happened... older players trying to lure or harass younger players that are not of consenting age yet. Kudos to you guys, that makes me feel a lot more comfortable knowing you guys are really looking out for the younger players and making sure they're safe.
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

  • KayeilKayeil Washington State
    Sarapis said:
    Alcaro said:
    as someone who's below eighteen and has engaged in mudsex in the past, i personally think it's up to the player. if they're willing and think they're mature enough to handle it, then sure, go for it. just don't enter into it lightly and make sure you set up clear boundaries prior.

    because i'm also someone who was once solicited by a wealthy, older male player to exchange nudes for credits, i think i have a good idea of the consequences that can follow reckless behavior and bad judgement. my parents never found out, thankfully, but i can assure you: there's nothing they could've said to make me feel worse about it when it was all said and done. i found out that said player was engaged and still wanted the nudes and it was then that i realized the gravity of what i'd gotten myself into.


    First, great post - you have a lot of maturity about the issue for someone your age. 

    Second, in the US at least, even sending a picture of yourself nude while you're underage violates child pornography laws. Not kidding. All those teens sexting pics to each other are violating child porn laws, as are the ones on the receiving end up keep those pics on their phone, request them, or encourage them to be sent. Obviously, given that so many teens do it, nobody prosecutes teens themselves for it very often, especially the ones doing the sending (though it does happen). I only bring it up because most teens aren't aware that they're actually violating some pretty serious laws when doing that and if you're going to do it, it's good to be aware of any potential legal consequences, even if they're unlikely to happen to you.

    However, the story is very different for someone over 18 who is in possession of a naked picture of an underage girl. If this older player had asked for and gotten a naked picture of you, he would also be in violation of child pornography laws and were he to be caught, he would definitely be prosecuted. And should be prosecuted in my opinion.

    I need to know who this person was now that I know about it (and only mention it here so that others are aware we take this kind of thing seriously). I'll get in touch privately. 
    There are some cases I've seen in the news where minors have been forced to register as sex offenders for sending nude pictures of themselves, but are later allowed to get it removed from their record through some process.

    Not saying this should be done to Alcaro at all or that it is even right or not, but just a warning to any other minors who may in the future be considering doing this same thing. It's not just the adults who get in trouble, but you can definitely get in trouble, too. Nothing anyone offers you is worth doing that, and someone isn't your friend if they're constantly trying to pressure you into it. It's not just a bad idea as a minor, though. Sharing nude photos can end up with bad results as an adult, too. Especially if the recipient decides to share them.
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

  • AlcaroAlcaro
    Kayeil said:
    I'm sure there are some that more mature than their general age group, and I don't mind general ranting, but when they come to me wanting to cut themselves amongst other things because their parents wouldn't let them do this or that... those are just issues I am not wanting to handle or get involved in, especially when they're overly emotional and react way too strongly and deeply to things that every kid goes through. I mean, sorry your parents don't give in to your every want, but you don't need to go cut yourself or threaten suicide. That's just what I mean, you know? I've had some bad experiences meeting younger people in this game where they're extremely clingy and go and do things like that.
     man, this thread is touching on so many old issues. i hate teenagers who use self-harm as a bargaining chip for attention or parental attention. it really doesn't help the stigma that "cutters" are just attention whores and don't really need therapy. self-harm is often a symptom of deeper underlying issues - it was for me - and therapy can be the best thing ever for someone struggling with that.
    (XXXX): Peak says, "You worry me."
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