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Comments
That love soon might end You are unbreaking
And be known in its aching Though quaking
Shown in this shaking Though crazy
Lately of my wasteland, baby That's just wasteland, baby
What if someone started titling themselves the same exact things as a full member of your House wears? What about if they claim a Vastarian title? This would be like me wearing "Neraeos' Tempest". Yes, I was a Nereian, but I never got Tempest, and further I'm no longer in the Order. It's not interesting. It's just silly.
Further, there's no way to really do anything within the conflict. The title/surname exists on that person, or it does not. You cannot actually force any kind of change. It's a "haha I'm still this even though you don't want me to be!" flag in the face. If any of them would actually interact with Mhaldorians, it could be interesting, but then they'd (rightfully) be shunned from their own orgs (since these are Targossians/Eleusians).
Mhaldorian families aren't about bloodline. They're about a principled set of beliefs, and all of that tie very very directly into Mhaldor and Evil. To wear one is to say you not only agree with these beliefs, but also find yourself to hold true to Evil. There's a reason why not every single Mhaldorian is one, and why Saeva (and others who do not use the forums as much) are pissed. There's nothing interesting because all they do is wear it and say "nah naaaah", and there's nothing the family members can do save grief them by killing them over and over.
I don't have any personal stake in this by the way, having a non-Mhaldorian surname, so this is speaking purely from a sideline view. It just feels silly.
Edit: Above is for the post above Daeir's, obviously.
That love soon might end You are unbreaking
And be known in its aching Though quaking
Shown in this shaking Though crazy
Lately of my wasteland, baby That's just wasteland, baby
Your family doesn't change, even if you move. I still have the same surname as my parents, we live in different countries, have different views on many things. Doesn't mean I need to change my surname.
So the Lichlord / Aristata family names originated in Mhaldor, and were pureblood evil. That was IG centuries ago, the bloodline has been diluted somewhat. It happens. Demanding some programmed mechanic to strip people's surnames because they don't follow the original intent of the family name doesn't really seem to me to be the best way of going about things.
In an ideal world, there'd be some real way to pressure someone for having a family title that goes against the core beliefs of said family - I could snag a surname with some influence behind it and drag it through the mud and nothing you can do will stop me, though.
To look at it from a different perspective, if I join Vastar's Order and kill Arcadians to make myself a feathered cap, they'll boot me and strip me of my title. If I re-title it, then I'll get mechanical punishments to my character in the form of death/TDF/etc. If I join the Savants and mail @Daeir the contents of the House shop, I'll probably face some real mechanical downsides there as well (loss of House/city for starters) - it doesn't seem too unreasonable that an organization be able to mechanically sanction someone, or forcibly remove association with them.
By extension, I don't think it's too far-fetched to have your family be able to strip your right to wear the name. Not mechanically remove your title, because that would be stupid, but SOME way to say 'hey we don't condone this person'. Maybe a flag that shows up in HONORS, maybe something in bloodline. Families have always been a core part of Achaean RP, with being invited into someone's family (at least with many names) as a mark of respect.
Whatever happens with this, though, I'd consider someone wearing a family name the rest of the family disagreed with to be an open pk hat - it's a sucky way to enforce change, maybe, but probably the only tool you're going to have. And it's a tidy conflict too, with clearly defined goals - the person wearing the name either manages to beat you back and earn the right to the title by might, or loses and capitulates/finds some compromise with you. Sure it sucks to lose, but someone has to when it comes to conflict.
- With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
- (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
- Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
- Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."
If I was at one point a member of a family that I end up "betraying their cause" because I find another faction more appealing/towards my characters development I would still wear the family title, if they demanded I remove it I would refuse as a form of rebellion to their control, and to forge a new legacy for the family name, regardless of what they wanted.
If it was not in my character to be headstrong/not cowed, then I would change the title as a form of escape. Both sides of the argument generate RP, but to say one side is wrong and be a bitch towards someone on forums because you don't like it is not the way to go.
But sure, I change class so just focus on that, what do I know.
tl/dr - both sides generate RP, both have valid RP directions but should not be enforced by admin or "family" powers. My comment was based on the bitchiness of people in this thread about it.
@Saeva and the rest of the Mhaldorian Aristata are in their rights to Rp being pissy and annoyed that someone not Mhaldorian is wearing the name they've chosen to glorify. However, Gaia, Artemis, Eleusis, Targossas, Aurora, Deucalion, the rest of the world are within their own rights to not give a shit about what Saeva thinks. Ah the beauty of playing individual characters with their own opinions on certain topics.
At the moment Aristata, and most other family cults don't really mean anything outside of Mhaldor. Outside of Mhaldor, they are just another combination of letters that assumes the form of a surname.
Maybe instead of making public posts praising those who bare the surname and have defected it (illustrating a lack of being able to keep your own house in order. I know it was a sarcastic post but it doesn't add anything to the name. It's just a girl stomping her foot because of some perceived slight.) the Mhaldorian families should start making public posts praising those members who are still in the city and actively furthering the goals of Evil. Make a name of your family as Evil sons-of-bitches actually out in the public eye and you'll hopefully find that people outside the of Mhaldor will start giving those last names weight.
-----------------------------
@Ruth made a point about uh, your named denizens. Each city has a set of denizens that hold notable surnames associated with prominent families in that city at the time of the trial revamps. But, remember these names have been about centuries beforehand and yes, there would even be people who bore these to new cities. They have been able to wear these without issue in their new cities. It's really only recently the cults have started trying to reel these in.
Again, I think the solution here is to make the names mean something outside of Mhaldor.
-------------------------------
My last name is quite well-known to the English, especally on an Australian. When I was in London I did get a lot of jokes about it including a bartender who pretended like he wasn't going to serve me because of it. A joke is fair enough, but if my surname/heritage completely and utterly disqualified me from getting a drink or entering England that would be a pretty shitty thing.
Replace England with any Achaean organisation and read how you will.
Right, it means nothing to those people? Then let go of something that definitely means something to people inside of Mhaldor (or wherever!) where it stems from and does have meaning.
And to the second bolded:
But because there's no mechanical way of dealing with this, instead of going around PKing people, this is how I opted to point out the absurdity of it. It doesn't have anything to do with anyone being able to keep a house in order. It's not -my- family to run and I'm not the only one who is irritated at the lack of regard for what the families are/stand for - as clearly demonstrated by so many!
Bloodline records who you share heritage/blood with. Not your family drama. No matter the family drama your heritage/blood is the same.
Kshetrayya is a surname that Kyrra's mother Mulciber uses and it's something that's pretty exclusive to that person. While I inherently have every right to use it if I want, Kyrra was disowned over 300 years ago by Mulciber and it just seems.. strange to want to acknowledge a connection that hasn't been there in a really long time.
I really understand where Saeva and Daeir are coming from, but I also see where everyone else is coming from. In general, family trees are pretty awesome and I like to think it's cool that I have access to prominent family names such as Winterhart and Mercadia through my character's parents but since I have no real interaction with those family members (or am even a member of the family clans), it would be strange to use them. And even though I am proud as hell to have Jhui for a father, I'd feel weird using Ta'sa as well.
Perhaps families like Wintermourne and Aristata, Lichlord and Lucoster, and a few of the others are more seen like legacies because of their history in Achaea. It's why people tend to place more importance on the surname as a title and it's something that needs to be earned rather than expected. To some, the history of these families is incredibly important and it's something that members of those families want to preserve rather than dilute, and there's really nothing wrong with that at all. I can understand that. I can also understand though, that just because you move to another city or faction, your past and who you are up until that point isn't magically erased.
I love the concept of legacies, it's something that people can aspire to be a part of and it's another angle to give depth to a character. There's just no way to distinguish such families from every other, so it really stems down to a personal choice of a character whether they want to acknowledge their history or not. Not everyone likes that, which is fine, but I love seeing posts from Saeva having digs at other Aristata family members in cities like Eleusis and Targossas. It's spreading RP opportunities, and shouldn't that be considered a good thing?
Obviously the surname means something to the bearers of the name. It's just not the same meaning you see in it.
(sorry for the edits. Thought I would make it clearer)
First, I think it'd be awesome if surnames were a special kind of title that could only be earned either by being on a special clan or some such OR by being part of the creator's bloodline as wife/husband/daughter/son/etc.
Going along with this, it'd be nice if family heads could then mark who they consider black sheeps, and to have such a status be publicly visible, purely as an rp tool to satisfy people with concerns like those of Saeva and etc.
What I don't agree with, though, is with restricting people's surnames or making it impossible for people to wear them just because they leave the city in which those names originated. Sure, you all might not consider it 'meaningful' conflict, or even meaningful at all, but to be frank, its not only your own enjoyment that matters. If people were bloodlined or whatever into the family, they have as much right to it, and it might be meaningful for them, in some manner or another, to keep it.
Besides, lets be honest. If they are not doing something interesting with the name, and someone else happen to mention, say, the Aristatas, you can be sure people are first going to think of Mhaldor before wherever else.
And you won't understand the cause of your grief...
...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.
- Regarding an easily-accessible record of those who have the "right" to wear a name (someone mentioned skimming through thousands of news posts to find disinheritances): could that not be done with a clan? CLANHELP ARISTATA (for example), and anyone not listed on there doesn't have the right to wear the name (in the opinion of the patriarch/matriarch). It's not ideal, but has the advantage of using a system which is already in place.
- On the idea that Aristatas moving to Targossas (for example) should be pressured into losing their surname, as a way of cutting ties: there is precedent to this. When Targossas was first formed, there were a lot of people who wanted to continue with their Shallam House titles - the point was made (over a long period of time) that Targossas is a new start, and they shouldn't be clinging onto the past. I don't think there's anyone who still has their old title any longer.
I don't have a stake in this either way. My initial reaction when reading the thread (once I got past the first half a dozen posts, which had the audacity of addressing the original idea) was "so some people outside of Mhaldor have 'Aristata' as a surname, who cares?" - but reading further, it's clear that there's a lot of history with some of the older family names, so I can see the point. That said, regarding the point about Aristata blood members being infused with some portion of Sartan's essence: that wouldn't change just because someone is cast out from the family (if this is something which is passed down through blood - and the crux of the argument here seems to be that it is).
On the original topic: I quite like that bloodlining is a one-time, irreversible thing. If it's for the purpose of tidying up a bloodline, well, a messy one is the price of being so... prolific with your recreation. If it's for actual disavowing of a still-active player, you'll probably have the opportunity to make it clear to those who care (the ones who would bother to BLOODLINE SHOW in the first place) that you disapprove of your progeny's actions through RP. If it's an inactive player, it doesn't really matter (again: if someone brings it up, you can tell the story).
I really don't like the idea of being able to "reavow". It cheapens the bloodlining aspect entirely if you can on-again, off-again it. Whatever the price, it'll be prohibitively high (I remember on a previous character when the 10K gold for divorce was a fair amount) for some characters, or trivially low (public news posts).
Think of Jon Snow or Ramsey Snow. By blood they are a Stark and a Bolton, but they don't claim those names because they're bastards. If they are recognized by their families, they become part of that family and use the surname of that family. Similarly, those who are disowned by powerful families lose any claim to using those names. Word spreads fast and people don't even try to claim them because they know it's a stupid thing to do with consequences. In Achaea those consequences are muted by mechanics because it's an online game, but it doesn't change the stupidity of the act.
Stop trying to compare this to real life. It's wrong in general when discussing Achaea situations, and even moreso in this one.
Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."
EDIT - As an aside from them being born bastards, they continued to choose to work with and live with/serve the families that did not claim them as an official member.
The difference here is similar to the Black family in Harry Potter - Sirius Black chooses not to be a supporter of voldemort yet keeps the Black surname and attempts to change his families legacy.
I'm just glad I am no longer married, so no one can sucker me into bloodlining people I would find useless.
It would be the same as (GoT Spoiler):
He would just get killed for it, it wouldn't offer him any perks and it would have very real consequences. He's disowned.
Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."
It's to -flag- that person as disowned. Their bloodline is still the same and will show their ancestors etc etc. (Just with a flag to indicate their disownment )
The only change is that they will not show up in whoever disowned them's bloodline. (Unless you view bloodline full).
Regarding families in general, it seems like half the people are arguing we shouldn't need mechanical support for this and should rp it out with what we have and the other half are arguing that we should stop caring about it because it's just a title and not important (aka it doesn't exist mechanically).
Is it a little dumb? Yes. Is it a crime? Nope. Some people will get worked up about, because they're not 'real' knights (or Aristatas, Lichlords, whatever else), but in the end, the onus is on the people who want to elevate that title (let's be honest, surnames are just a title in Achaea, except a suffix instead of a prefix) to make it worth doing things their way. If Aristatas in Targossas don't give a crap about what Mhaldorian Aristatas' thoughts, it's probably better to ask yourself 'why?' than to get pissy about it on the forums.
Personally, I think Achaean families are convoluted and kind of pointless, because except for in the case of some very specific people, they're just coloring, not flavour.
I like this idea because it gives you something to do with your bloodline that isn't fire-and-forget. Once you sign that paper, you're bound forever, and, truth be told, if you want families to start meaning something, you should give people more options for controlling the way they present their bloodline to the world. People are allowed to make mistakes, and cutting someone out of your bloodline should be a meaningful thing. I wouldn't be opposed to nixing the whole bloodline thing in favour of an honours line, frankly- He has been disinherited by his blood parents, or something similar. Something to show -everyone- that your people are upset with you.
As long as you can't literally force a person to change a title, there's no control at all over surnames, and so, it'll continue to be meaningless unless the majority of a family provides an attractive, rewarding incentive for buying into their vision of said family.
Mhaldorian families do gain certain privileges within the city as a whole, including family events, the right to have various displays in the city, etc. There is a fairly rigid set of rules and privileges gained via the families, and instructions on how to become both minor and major houses. This system was introduced well before I joined Mhaldor, and obviously with Sartan's approval and oversight as it's become an official part of the city and its culture.
Not quite "garden-stamped", but not really far off, either.
That love soon might end You are unbreaking
And be known in its aching Though quaking
Shown in this shaking Though crazy
Lately of my wasteland, baby That's just wasteland, baby
Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."
Not that that's always the case. But the potential is there, and of course family members elsewhere should be pissed about it.