Bloodline Disinherit

Tibitha

So, the current bloodlining system is pretty inflexible and actual family RP tends to happens in clans and titles more so than the bloodline (though it obviously gets used). I realise that any change to it will probably require a massive overhaul and there are many other systems that gets priority over it.

I had a small idea though, which might not be tooo difficult to implement (depending obviously how the DB is set up in the back), but which might give a bit more meaning to the current system.

The idea is to add BLOODLINE DISINHERIT <person> <reason> functionality (possibly with a fee).

This can only be done by a parent to one of his kids.
It doesn't remove the child from the bloodline, it just flags that link as "disinherited".

Example:
Neptune bloodlines Ariel.
Neptune disinherits Ariel (because she's a land-loving hussy).

If I were to BLOODLINE SHOW Ariel, it will still show her father as Neptune, but flagged:
Father: Neptune (dis.)
Mother: Nobody knows

If I were to BLOODLINE SHOW Neptune however, Ariel will not be listed as one of his daughters nor any of her descendants.

Possibly we can add a BLOODLINE SHOW FULL Neptune, which will show will include that information, with a (dis.) flag.

Additionally it should be possible to BLOODLINE RESTORE <person> which will remove the disinherited flag, however this should probably come with a hefty fee, on par with getting yourself unenemied to a city (not Cyrene).

While this still keeps bloodlining permanent it could help people to clean up their bloodlines somewhat and have the bloodlines reflect the actual families.

Thoughts? 

Sena

I think it's better if bloodlines are kept simple, representing only blood relations rather than the more nebulous "family" with adoptions and marriage and (dis)recognition.

Seftin

But I wanted to disinherit @anedhel (Icuthere)

Anedhel

Why, Seftin? Why?

Kasya

Something like this that allows family ties to still be there but renounced would be beautiful! I mean they made it work in Harry Potter, and Achaea is even more magical than that.

Sarapis

Sena said:

I think it's better if bloodlines are kept simple, representing only blood relations rather than the more nebulous "family" with adoptions and marriage and (dis)recognition.

That's the plan, yep.

Silvarien

I think from a storytelling perspective, irrevocable bloodlining is gold. Families are stuck together, you can be ashamed of what the black sheep in your family did, or you can have two sisters running a war against each other, each controlling a kingdom, or brothers meeting in opposite sides of a battlefield.

Epic storytelling is ADDED to by dysfunctional family, it's not SUBTRACTED from. I mean, look at Luke and Darth Vader. The more fucked up a family is, the more potentially interesting it gets.

Kondar

With Kondar being an Aristata in Eleusis, I completely agree with that. I think it add a degree to the game that is fun to RP. Though I am Aristata by name, there will be those who disagree.

Aodfionn

DO WANT

Tibitha

The one other place I can see this being usefull is for people with large, dormant bloodlines. So to reduce clutter than to increase it.

Kyrra

Tibitha said:

The one other place I can see this being usefull is for people with large, dormant bloodlines. So to reduce clutter than to increase it.

If the parent needs to be the one kicking the kid to the curb, and people are dormant, how would that even work?

Saeva

I still think Aristatas outside of Mhaldor is hypocritical and stupid on an IC level. On an OOC level I think it's just dense that people do it simply because mechanics allow it.
It's literally just an Evil family. Why the -hell- would you want to rep it if you weren't evil? There's 0 legitimacy to it.

Silvarien

Saeva said:

I still think Aristatas outside of Mhaldor is hypocritical and stupid on an IC level. On an OOC level I think it's just dense that people do it simply because mechanics allow it.
It's literally just an Evil family. Why the -hell- would you want to rep it if you weren't evil? There's 0 legitimacy to it.

@Saeva : well, like in real life, as time changes, stuff that used to make sense can make less sense. My family, the Da'Navis, used to be huge in Cyrene. Now the only Da'Navis left in Cyrene are me and Ramilies, and Rinzai and Kross and others are in Ashtan. If you predicted this back when Silvy was like 20 years old, everybody in Cyrene would say it was impossible.

Saeva

Silvarien said:

Saeva said:

I still think Aristatas outside of Mhaldor is hypocritical and stupid on an IC level. On an OOC level I think it's just dense that people do it simply because mechanics allow it.
It's literally just an Evil family. Why the -hell- would you want to rep it if you weren't evil? There's 0 legitimacy to it.

@Saeva : well, like in real life, as time changes, stuff that used to make sense can make less sense. My family, the Da'Navis, used to be huge in Cyrene. Now the only Da'Navis left in Cyrene are me and Ramilies, and Rinzai and Kross and others are in Ashtan. If you predicted this back when Silvy was like 20 years old, everybody in Cyrene would say it was impossible.

It has nothing to do with numbers.

Exelethril

Saeva said:

Silvarien said:

Saeva said:

I still think Aristatas outside of Mhaldor is hypocritical and stupid on an IC level. On an OOC level I think it's just dense that people do it simply because mechanics allow it.
It's literally just an Evil family. Why the -hell- would you want to rep it if you weren't evil? There's 0 legitimacy to it.

@Saeva : well, like in real life, as time changes, stuff that used to make sense can make less sense. My family, the Da'Navis, used to be huge in Cyrene. Now the only Da'Navis left in Cyrene are me and Ramilies, and Rinzai and Kross and others are in Ashtan. If you predicted this back when Silvy was like 20 years old, everybody in Cyrene would say it was impossible.

It has nothing to do with numbers.

In your opinion, someone belonging to a text-family with a Mhaldorian origin isn't allowed to RP conversion to another faction while keeping the surname? 

Aodfionn

Saeva said:

I still think Aristatas outside of Mhaldor is hypocritical and stupid on an IC level. On an OOC level I think it's just dense that people do it simply because mechanics allow it.
It's literally just an Evil family. Why the -hell- would you want to rep it if you weren't evil? There's 0 legitimacy to it.

Agreed to this entirely. I wish there were a mechanism for being able to rectify this - even if it's just a gentleman's agreement between cities not to allow folks to hold the name of a family that is inherently your faction's enemy. 

Thank christ no Wintermournes have tried to pop up elsewhere. 

Edit: It's not that it's names with factional origins like say, maybe Longshanks or Ze'dekiah - it's that some of these families have some pretty longstanding lore, part of which for certain families like Aristata involve being imbued with the essence of Sartan or some shit.

The closest analogy I could think of would be if someone showed up to a game at CenturyLink to root for the Hawks, but wearing a 9ers jersey. Doesn't make sense for me, at least not when some families have that lore behind them.

Jurixe

The sad thing is, Achaea isn't like Game of Thrones. If, say, someone dared to declare themselves a Lannister without the approval of the 'main' family, they'd be killed instantly or be laughed out of town. That's because families in that universe have power. And people only have one life, so you didn't go around making stupid declarations like that if you weren't wanted by the family.

In Achaea, families have no power over things like that. You can be so careful about choosing the 'right' people to give your surname to, but once you give them the name, if they turn rogue and choose to leave, there's literally nothing you can do to force them to relinquish the name. You can get all your buddies and kill them over, and over, and over, but inevitably it will turn to issues and even though there's a logical reason for you killing them so many times, I don't believe this would be supported as it's 'still a game'. You can ask the leaders of the city they defect to to prevent them from wearing the name, but why would they, if they don't like you? It is so easy to title these days but there is literally no consequence that matters to being a 'black sheep of the family'.

Sure, some will argue that it is interesting roleplay. And I don't doubt that there are many scenarios where it could be. But why should you retain access to wearing that name publically when there is no way to force you to remove it, short of griefing you out of the game - an endgame, surely, that isn't desirable to either party? Why can those who chose to give you the name and all the history that goes with it not have some say in being able to take it away?

If people took the name away and did something meaningful with it like starting up a rogue branch of whatever it is with a meaningful purpose, then perhaps. But most people don't do that - they just take away the name because they think they deserve it and then have a hundred kids who all have your surname. But that, to me, dilutes family roleplay and it's pointless trying to say 'we're a family of Evil' when you have people with your surname all over the world and not be able to do anything about it. I really like the idea of having major families identifiable by region and I feel that turning rogue or going somewhere else should have its consequences.

I am not concerned about removing bloodlines, though I'd admittedly like this feature. A bloodline is a bloodline; that doesn't change. A name, however, can be stripped, and the 'founding families' should have a right to do that, I think. Especially if said traitor joins an enemy city.

Aerek

I think it can be cool when one member of an established factional family ends up somewhere else. It gives them a story to tell, a talking point for that new faction to ask about. The issue is just that everyone wants to be that guy, and it becomes cliche and un-special. In the words of Tenebrus, ages ago, "We all want to play Drizzt, and none of us want to play the thousands of average Drow that make Drizzt unique."

Sarapis

Saeva said:

I still think Aristatas outside of Mhaldor is hypocritical and stupid on an IC level. On an OOC level I think it's just dense that people do it simply because mechanics allow it.
It's literally just an Evil family. Why the -hell- would you want to rep it if you weren't evil? There's 0 legitimacy to it.

The idea of an "evil family" where simply being part of the bloodline dictates your morality makes no sense. Evil doesn't flow in someone's blood, after all. It requires willful action, and there's nothing strange, at all, about different members of a family behaving differently from each other.

Achilles

Entire thread in a nutshell

Sarapis

Jurixe said:

I am not concerned about removing bloodlines, though I'd admittedly like this feature. A bloodline is a bloodline; that doesn't change. A name, however, can be stripped, and the 'founding families' should have a right to do that, I think. Especially if said traitor joins an enemy city.

I disagree, I have to say. My last name remains Mihaly no matter what organization I join, and it doesn't make a whit of difference if one of those orgs decides it "owns" the name and that it doesn't want me to use it. I'll just continue to use it, and other people will continue to call me by it.

If you don't want someone else to be in your family, don't bloodline anyone, I'd say!

Morthif

Saeva said:

I still think Aristatas outside of Mhaldor is hypocritical and stupid on an IC level. On an OOC level I think it's just dense that people do it simply because mechanics allow it.
It's literally just an Evil family. Why the -hell- would you want to rep it if you weren't evil? There's 0 legitimacy to it.

Morthif's father @Diego is the cofounder of the Aristata family. His mentor is @Gaillardia the founder of the family. His mother is also a member.

Morthif has more right to the name then just about any active player wearing it.

Jurixe

Sarapis said:

Jurixe said:

I am not concerned about removing bloodlines, though I'd admittedly like this feature. A bloodline is a bloodline; that doesn't change. A name, however, can be stripped, and the 'founding families' should have a right to do that, I think. Especially if said traitor joins an enemy city.

I disagree, I have to say. My last name remains Mihaly no matter what organization I join, and it doesn't make a whit of difference if one of those orgs decides it "owns" the name and that it doesn't want me to use it. I'll just continue to use it, and other people will continue to call me by it.

If you don't want someone else to be in your family, don't bloodline anyone, I'd say!

I want people to be in my family! I'd just like there to be some lasting consequence if they leave it and what it represents. But perhaps I see families more as corporations, which might be due to the Mhaldorian mindset and because characters who wear Mhaldorian names aren't necessarily 'born' into the families. Once you leave a workplace, you no longer carry the employee card and aren't recognised as representing the brand any longer.

I accept that views will differ on this matter, though, which is fair enough; that's just how I see it.

Tahquil

I've always viewed the process of bloodlining someone as going into the registry, flipping open the book that is there to your family tree, penning in the name with an artistic flair, congrats you and your kid are formally recognised!

Being able to disown and reown on a whim makes me think of gilt-edged pages being covered in red ink scrawled down the page next to a child as being "Disowned, reowned, disowned, reowned, dis.... and so on".

The bloodline command is there to show who you share blood with. Not what the current relationship between members are. There is also in HELP BLOODLINE - "It should go without saying that bloodlines are permanent and irrevocable. After all, you cannot change who your biological mother and father are." I think it should also go on to say 'Nor your children, or your children's children.' .

Saeva

Aristata, Nithilar, I'llur, Lichlord... There are some of blood, but these families are not all blood. It is more or less a guild in its own right - and guess what? I didn't make it this way. But that's what it is regardless of how that was 'meant' to be. These families aren't necessarily about bloodline.

Aurora and Deucalion should be ashamed of you @Morthif, for holding ties to that history, to be frank. It's not even like Aristata and Lichlord are some random family that players decided were Evil families, they are denizens in Mhaldor for christ sake.  They are absolutely closely knit to Mhaldor and its lore. Just like Sartan would wreck the fool who pranced around in Mhaldor with Wintermourne. And Wintermourne isn't all blood either. They took that Mhaldorian name and 'cleansed' it and carried it to Targ and it's its own 'club' of sorts.

Sybilla

It would be nice if the influence these certain families built up would also carry stigma elsewhere.

Say my parents are Italian (they are), and I mean properly cheese-and-wine toting, frozen-pizza-hating, espresso-loving Italians. Everything they stand for and have built has been centred around this identity. And say I then leave, to go live with tea-swilling, pie-and-mash Brits. I'd expect my new countrymen to balk at pronouncing my last name, grow accustomed to their misspelling it (every year, in every Christmas card. #imnotbitter), and endure endless awkward/uncomfortable questions about how I must be accustomed to doing things, and how that's "bloody not on" every time I slip into old habits.

Say hypothetically Brits and Italians are on opposite theological camps, too. And that by leaving one, I fully embrace the other's hatred/xenophobia. Anything I carry from my 'old' life would need to be expunged if I want any hope of fitting in and being accepted as a full queen-and-countryman.

That's what Saeva's saying. Why don't Targossas/Eleusis/wherever else make a big deal about expats wearing their Mhaldorian name? Why isn't there a "one or the other" stigma, where your loyalty is questioned for holding onto blood ties that you have otherwise rescinded by going to the factional opposite?

I remember Amunet interviewing someone for the Occultists, I think they were a Rousseau - and basically she refused to go forward with it because that name was in the s**t for Tekla(?) breaking oath and "you can't have loyalty for the House if you hold ties to that coven of defectors" etc.

It would be more interesting if that were the case and the disinherited black sheep were actually treated as such.

Tahquil

@Saeva I think you mean Aurora and Deuce should be proud of Morthif for seeing the Light and protecting creation despite his blood and family name.

Edit: Also, it's a name. Judge people on what they do, not the name they wear you shallow, shallow people.

Saeva

No that's not what I meant.

Ruth

I think the concept of Mhaldorian family bloodlines (and it seems, Targossian family bloodlines as well) are probably different from most of the reasons why and how families are founded. It all revolves around embodying ideals that directly serves our faction's goal so anyone else who leaves certainly isn't going to be doing that.

I also understand the problem that Saeva faces in trying to lean Aristata in that roleplay direction. Ruth adopted Aegoth, but when he left Mhaldor for Eleusis, she refused to acknowledge him as family. However, Aegoth is well within his right to carry on wearing her surname even despite her wishes and there's nothing she can do about it! This problem is doubly so for people who were actually bloodlined into a family.

That's pretty much why I dropped the Yuridja-Keyte name and created a Mhaldorian family name. People who own the I'llur surname are all knowingly approached for suitability and then adopted into the family, with the exception of Orzaansyn who already carries the traits of the family ideals anyway.

However! That still doesn't make me any less of a Yuridja-Keyte or who I am to my IG parents and kids. In fact, I have a room in the I'llur family estate that immortalises my family roots.

However, this 'restarting and being careful about bloodlining people' feature isn't applicable to families that are severely entrenched in a city's history though (like the city novicehood named denizens). Unfortunately, this faction-related, player-driven system has no supporting mechanics currently for roleplay support and I don't think the ability to disinherit will change any of the current family dynamics in Achaea anyway.

Skye

I just want to delete all those ill-advised children that I got pressured into bloodlining  

Alrena

Sybilla said:

It would be nice if the influence these certain families built up would also carry stigma elsewhere.

Say my parents are Italian (they are), and I mean properly cheese-and-wine toting, frozen-pizza-hating, espresso-loving Italians. Everything they stand for and have built has been centred around this identity. And say I then leave, to go live with tea-swilling, pie-and-mash Brits. I'd expect my new countrymen to balk at pronouncing my last name, grow accustomed to their misspelling it (every year, in every Christmas card. #imnotbitter), and endure endless awkward/uncomfortable questions about how I must be accustomed to doing things, and how that's "bloody not on" every time I slip into old habits.

Say hypothetically Brits and Italians are on opposite theological camps, too. And that by leaving one, I fully embrace the other's hatred/xenophobia. Anything I carry from my 'old' life would need to be expunged if I want any hope of fitting in and being accepted as a full queen-and-countryman.

That's what Saeva's saying. Why don't Targossas/Eleusis/wherever else make a big deal about expats wearing their Mhaldorian name? Why isn't there a "one or the other" stigma, where your loyalty is questioned for holding onto blood ties that you have otherwise rescinded by going to the factional opposite?

I remember Amunet interviewing someone for the Occultists, I think they were a Rousseau - and basically she refused to go forward with it because that name was in the s**t for Tekla(?) breaking oath and "you can't have loyalty for the House if you hold ties to that coven of defectors" etc.

It would be more interesting if that were the case and the disinherited black sheep were actually treated as such.

It's probably because in Eleusis, families aren't guild-like and it doesn't really matter where you come from and what your last name is. However, there is a stigma to being a former forest enemy, and these former enemies need to put in a bit more effort to be accepted, and even then some Eleusians will still avoid them. Personally I prefer it this way, where the personal actions are judged, not the actions of their ancestors. 

You might not be able to forcibly take someone's last name away, or grief them into giving it up (or quit playing). But nothing's stopping you from booting them from the exclusive family clan, looking down at them every chance you get and seeing them as traitors to their blood and treating them that way. I imagine that's a lot more enjoyable for both sides than a boot button for families.