Announce 4368: Puppet/Vodun Mangle

Amranu

Mangle doesn't lead very well into locks at all right now. There's not enough of a window in practice to lock someone with it. Useful for some other things, mostly leading into slow strategies. In theory locks are possible, mostly salvelocks and I have managed to get one or two off since the changes but it's just not reliable enough to attempt really.

Achimrst

There is a lot of window to royally eff them up though, which can be fun.

Jinsun

Ahh here we are

Tael

Jinsun said:

Ahh here we are

Ahh here we are



(If you don't want to read it, stop reading it. You don't need to tell other people to stop posting to threads. I think you can probably handle scrolling past one more line than you would otherwise have to in the topic list. I know you can do it. I believe in you.)

Jovolo

Slipping back into old habits, tsk

Atalkez

I think Shaman is just fine right now after all the tweaks.

I don't think if you get 80-100 fashions you should miraculous be guaranteed a kill. At the top tiers you usually have to get a kill sequence a few times over before you finally pull it off. Combat relies on people making mistakes, not just dor <x> until <y> then win.

Shaman -can- lock without ever touching the doll other than enough fashions for relapse. Even then, it's not absolutely required to lock. You can't discount that fact in the slightest when talking about balancing the class.

Amranu

Locks outside of the use of vodun -should- be few and far between with the shield change eliminating virtually every strategy available for locking. It's still possible with poor timing on shield, but quite easy to stop now.

Tael

Atalkez said:

I think Shaman is just fine right now after all the tweaks.

I don't think if you get 80-100 fashions you should miraculous be guaranteed a kill. At the top tiers you usually have to get a kill sequence a few times over before you finally pull it off. Combat relies on people making mistakes, not just dor <x> until <y> then win.

Shaman -can- lock without ever touching the doll other than enough fashions for relapse. Even then, it's not absolutely required to lock. You can't discount that fact in the slightest when talking about balancing the class.

Relapse doesn't require fashions - it just has a little cooldown. Soulscourge takes fashions though, and most of the time you presumably want to be able to use both soulscourge and relapse in a lock attempt (and/or coagulation, since you need some way of delivering slickness).

Atalkez

Amranu said:

Locks outside of the use of vodun -should- be few and far between with the shield change eliminating virtually every strategy available for locking. It's still possible with poor timing on shield, but quite easy to stop now.

If shield is such a hindrance, how does Serpent or Apostate or Bard lock through it? Figure it out dude. Curses still goes through shield, and they're not fighting back if they are shielding.

Tael

Atalkez said:

Amranu said:

Locks outside of the use of vodun -should- be few and far between with the shield change eliminating virtually every strategy available for locking. It's still possible with poor timing on shield, but quite easy to stop now.

If shield is such a hindrance, how does Serpent or Apostate or Bard lock through it? Figure it out dude. Curses still goes through shield, and they're not fighting back if they are shielding.

To be fair, there's a pretty big difference for bard and serpent when it comes to what shield does to their offense (apostate is a lot more similar, at least without hellsight).

While I think there definitely are things to do when people shield as a shaman, even with just curses, bard and serpent don't have the same problem when it comes to securing a lock - shield doesn't stop either of them from finishing a lock since bard can cantata and still jab a venom without sacrificing much momentum and serpent can deliver a venom with their flay without sacrificing much momentum.

Without relying on vodun, if someone shields against you as you're trying to finish your lock as a shaman, you can use the time to bury some non-locking afflictions, but without vodun it's impossible to actually complete the lock until they drop the shield on their own since you have no way of delivering slickness through a shield or getting rid of the shield without giving them time to cure away the progress you've made toward the lock at that point.

The solution to shielding is vodun for the most part.

Amranu

Apostate can double afflict through shield and additionally lose nothing if hellsight is already stuck when they have shielded. Shaman can't double afflict through shield. This means any class with fitness or alchemists in shield is unlockable as long as they are on balance and properly prioritise impatience.

Bard/Serpent do not lose momentum on shield, they maintain it. Admittedly, shield is more of a problem for Serpents than Bard if it's timed properly, but the timing for shield to stop lock instead of simply delaying isn't the largest, whereas someone can shield against Shaman at any time during the fight and be perfectly safe against a straight curse lock in the vast majority of situations. The same isn't true for any of the other classes you've mentioned, as shielding against Apostate when hellsight is already stuck is still going to result in you getting locked; it's still good for relieving pressure prior to that, but it's not going to stop an Apostate at a certain point. Shield stops Shaman locks essentially whenever it is used, no timing required and depending on your class abilities essentially worry free in regards to getting locked.

I haven't stated a real opinion on this change btw, the above is essentially objective fact.

Xinna

Are you trying to say that two afflictions at 2.2 seconds is somehow better than 2 afflictions at 2 seconds (1 every 1 second) now? Shaman "double" afflicts in the same way apostate does. It afflicts twice as fast. It just doesn't get its "third" afflictions, so to speak, much like apostate doesn't get its entity hits. You're right that if hellsight is already stuck, apostate can keep going, but otherwise, it's pretty much the exact same.

Bard and serpent are also definitely both affected by shield, albeit in an entirely different way, as Tael said. Bard and serpents can't attack through shield; they -have- to break it. So, yes, they can break it and afflict at the same time, but this isn't always necessarily better than cursing directly through shield.

Not to mention with lethal ink and aldar talisman/diadem, shaman can break shield at a pretty damn fast rate. Shaman is also much, much faster at afflicting than apostate, at least.

Either way, as Tael said, Vodun is a pretty substantial counter to shield. Even if it were necessary to beat shielding (which isn't really always the case), this wouldn't be a problem at all. It's pretty normal.

Every momentum class has to deal with shield. Every prep class has to deal with tumble past icewall/piety/etc. Move along.

Atalkez

Tael said:

Atalkez said:

Amranu said:

Locks outside of the use of vodun -should- be few and far between with the shield change eliminating virtually every strategy available for locking. It's still possible with poor timing on shield, but quite easy to stop now.

If shield is such a hindrance, how does Serpent or Apostate or Bard lock through it? Figure it out dude. Curses still goes through shield, and they're not fighting back if they are shielding.

To be fair, there's a pretty big difference for bard and serpent when it comes to what shield does to their offense (apostate is a lot more similar, at least without hellsight).

While I think there definitely are things to do when people shield as a shaman, even with just curses, bard and serpent don't have the same problem when it comes to securing a lock - shield doesn't stop either of them from finishing a lock since bard can cantata and still jab a venom without sacrificing much momentum and serpent can deliver a venom with their flay without sacrificing much momentum.

Without relying on vodun, if someone shields against you as you're trying to finish your lock as a shaman, you can use the time to bury some non-locking afflictions, but without vodun it's impossible to actually complete the lock until they drop the shield on their own since you have no way of delivering slickness through a shield or getting rid of the shield without giving them time to cure away the progress you've made toward the lock at that point.

The solution to shielding is vodun for the most part.

With curing priorities and good shielding, you can negate any type of lock attempt from both of those classes. Unless you're just stacked really deeply, in which case you probably misplayed to begin with. If a Bard sings cantata, they're not singing impatience, which can negate the lock. Serpent can only give impatience through hypnosis, so a single cure of it behind shield can negate their entire lock setup. Shaman doesn't have that problem re: impatience.

Apostate can't give slickness with shield up, which is basically the same issue Shaman has. Shaman can afflict at a slightly faster rate than Apostate, -and- has more options through the use of Vodun.

All classes are different, but Shaman is in no worse shape than any other affliction class in my opinion versus shield.

@Amranu shielding is a momentum stopper for every single class. The idea that they maintain their momentum through shield is incorrect. The only thing shield stops is slickness (which is no different than Apostate, as I just stated.)

Amranu

@Xinna double afflicting is 100% better for lock completion than single afflictions. This is pretty obvious, when a lock is completed with say, impatience and weariness, giving impatience and weariness at the same time is significantly better than allowing a window for the victim to use fitness. I covered how Bard and Serpents handle shield, and I think it was a pretty fair representation.

@Atalkez Maintaining momentum in this case means that when an opponent shields, the Bard/Serpent is able to break shield and afflict them to the point where they were prior to shielding in one attack sequence. This is a delay but not really a block for locks. Shield does however work against Serpents to block locks quite obviously if used to delay the serpent when hypnosis fires and give time to cure impatience. This isn't true for Bard however, as Bard has access to all locking afflictions at any time within their offense. Either way this acts differently from how shield works against Apostate/Shaman.

Shaman handles shield worse than every other class in the way it can be used to brick wall their ability to lock (comparatively worse than Apostate, which handles it worse than any class but Shaman now), but I do not mean this to say Shaman cannot handle shield. Far from this, Shaman definitely has tools to work around shield in vodun.

Opinion wise if I wanted to state a problem with my class, it's that the window Shaman has to lock -with- the use of vodun* is too small to be used in practice. But of course any opinion I have on my class is instantly attacked as some kind of entitled whining instead of being looked at objectively, so I really don't know why I bother to state them.

* Where the use of vodun here is with the intent to prevent the opponent from running/shielding with strategic use of cripple and mangle, and not in regards to say, using vodun slow as an aide towards getting a lock

Atalkez

I don't think you stating your opinion is whining, simply that sometimes you're a little off on your assumptions.

Shaman is one of the harder classes to live against, at a point in time where all classes offense is really really good. I understand you struggle with some situations, or some classes, but that is every other class too. That's the very definition of balance. You shouldn't be great in every situation versus every class.

Achimrst

Atalkez said:

I think Shaman is just fine right now after all the tweaks.

I don't think if you get 80-100 fashions you should miraculous be guaranteed a kill. At the top tiers you usually have to get a kill sequence a few times over before you finally pull it off. Combat relies on people making mistakes, not just dor <x> until <y> then win.

Shaman -can- lock without ever touching the doll other than enough fashions for relapse. Even then, it's not absolutely required to lock. You can't discount that fact in the slightest when talking about balancing the class.

Lies, if you can't kill a shaman after 100 fashions. You deserve to die.

Atalkez

Achimrst said:

Atalkez said:

I think Shaman is just fine right now after all the tweaks.

I don't think if you get 80-100 fashions you should miraculous be guaranteed a kill. At the top tiers you usually have to get a kill sequence a few times over before you finally pull it off. Combat relies on people making mistakes, not just dor <x> until <y> then win.

Shaman -can- lock without ever touching the doll other than enough fashions for relapse. Even then, it's not absolutely required to lock. You can't discount that fact in the slightest when talking about balancing the class.

Lies, if you can't kill a shaman after 100 fashions. You deserve to die.

Thanks for your insight.

Achimrst

Atalkez said:

Achimrst said:

Atalkez said:

I think Shaman is just fine right now after all the tweaks.

I don't think if you get 80-100 fashions you should miraculous be guaranteed a kill. At the top tiers you usually have to get a kill sequence a few times over before you finally pull it off. Combat relies on people making mistakes, not just dor <x> until <y> then win.

Shaman -can- lock without ever touching the doll other than enough fashions for relapse. Even then, it's not absolutely required to lock. You can't discount that fact in the slightest when talking about balancing the class.

Lies, if you can't kill a shaman after 100 fashions. You deserve to die.

Thanks for your insight.

You're welcome, now mangle that bastards legs.

Xinna

Single afflicting is not worse than double afflicting! It may have slight disadvantages in some situations, but it has advantages in others. You just always look at the bad side of everything and never the good. Being able to impatience twice in a row vs. imp prio, for example, rather than having to do something like imp/stupid at times because you can't imp, then re-imp after goldenseal eat, is a huge thing. You don't need to do imp/weary or any other two afflictions at the same time to lock.

I thought we had already discussed and agreed that shaman -does- have enough time to kill after mangles. I don't know why you keep changing your mind on that one.

I'd also like to point out that if people shield to stop your curses, you no longer need to be concerned about no room hinder/mangle not holding target down long enough! I think I'd be happy if someone was too shield-happy as shaman. Should allow you to kill with FAR less fashions if they're just throwing themselves off eq for you, since your curses and your imbibes both go right through it.

Amranu

Xinna, single afflicting is good but don't throw out the context of my statement in that regard. Without the ability to seal a lock, which Shamans do not really have without Spiritlore (which is what happens when someone shields) the ability to take advantage of single afflictions is reduced substantially.

As already stated, in theory Shaman has enough time to lock in regards to mangles, in practice the timeframe is so small as to be virtually impossible to use for a lock attempt assuming the opponent knows how to use tumble and has room hinder or a wall to tumble through. Tumble cancel isn't viable as the window isn't there before they are unprone and running again, and fashion costs become prohibitive after attempting that anyhow. Essentially lock attempts with vodun are now hard countered by icewall/room hinder, and hard countered without vodun by shield. Icewalls/room hinder in general tends to be a soft counter in regards to prep classes, but Shaman takes so much time to expend prep and requires impecabble timing for salvelocks (essentially impossible with a wall), or a certain amount of time to complete a lock (mathematically impossible with a tumble through wall). Because of this, lock attempts w/ vodun are simply too easily countered to be viably used. This obviously isn't saying Shaman are toothless. Atalkez isn't just dying on command, slow and blackout especially are still extremely powerful and useful tools.

I'll define things since people in this thread have been saying "you're wrong in what you say because I choose to interpret it differently"

Hard counter: Once used, no real opportunities to complete a kill.
Soft counter: Once used, reduces the chances for a kill but does not eliminate them.

Jovolo

Just with regards to single afflicting and double afflicting through shield and using active curing behind shield, they're mostly identical because both afflictions are delivered before the shielder regains EQ and thus at the "critcical point" of EQ returning the practical results are the same. They're wildly different classes in how they approach locks though, so take comparisons with a beach of salt...

Kenway

Jovolo said:

Amranu said:

No, the S&B kill sequence is break leg prone, break torso, impale stun DSB.

With enough strength the DSB is over 100% health in this scenario, insta-kill.

You could apply to torso on the leg break instead and tumble, or fake apply to legs with mending and then apply to torso;tumble when they break torso. Beat those pesky S&B's

Yeah thats only a guarantee of torso damage. You lose the guarantee of the dsb as you give them time to tumble. If you break torso first you lose the torso damage but they cant avoid the dsb (discounting a few scenarios such as mindthrow or battlecry)