Announce 4368: Puppet/Vodun Mangle

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  • Yeah basically. I haven't outright said we -need- something in that regard since I was flipping out about the change initially. I'm still getting kills obviously, although some people *coughAtalkezcough* are avoiding kills a ridiculous amount of the time. Still, I think I might have something that works against him now, just need to try it out.
  • People don't -have- to walk away from Shaman after 3 curses. People just do it because there's nothing stopping them, and it doesn't harm their own offence.

    S&B, once someone is prepped and if they have enough strength, has a 100% DSB that can't be tumbled away from. I think the only defence possible is pre-apply, which can be difficult to judge the timing for, and the S&B can watch for it and time the breaking to be immediately following the apply.

    That being said I wasn't stating that every class had inescapable kills, just that the ability to avoid kills for classes is dictated by chance once they get to a certain point. Such as Occultists getting Hecate and tentacles largely being the deciding factor of whether or not you can get away at that point. Any class that prones/mangles with prep having chances to kill with little defensive options available at that point for the victim (Magi, Knights etc).
  • JinsunJinsun TN, USA
    Ok, but people can walk away from occie and S&B with little to no effort if they start trying as soon as the fight begins. S&B actually loses their prep after a few minutes when you can have fashions for hours. You're really just spouting off without properly synthesizing your thoughts or really even considering the reality that other classes face. You're treating shaman as if it exists in a vacuum.
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  • Ok, I'm not arguing that if people are actively avoiding the fight that people can't get away. That's not true at all, obviously. I don't even know why we're having this conversation if people are not able to grasp that I'm talking about the reliability of securing a kill of the class compared to other classes at the point where you begin the kill attempt.

    Fashions don't stick around for hours, but frankly I don't care if they change dolls with the new fashion rate at this point.
  • edited July 2015
    Occultists and Knights all have room hinder though so that's not entirely a fair comparison. 33% hinder can be difficult to get out of, and Occultists have lethargy to near double the amount of time to recover balance from a failed attempt. If mangle has weakened to the point it means Shamans can't execute a kill attempt within the time they can lock someone down then I think Amranu is raising a fair point. 

    I'm just going to delete my opinion on the viability of Shaman or not right there. I have no idea now :P 
  • Jovolo said:
    Occultists and Knights all have room hinder though so that's not entirely a fair comparison. 33% hinder can be difficult to get out of, and Occultists have lethargy to near double the amount of time to recover balance from a failed attempt. If mangle has weakened to the point it means Shamans can't execute a kill attempt within the time they can lock someone down then I think Amranu is raising a fair point. 

    I'm just going to delete my opinion on the viability of Shaman or not right there. I have no idea now :P 
    Not the case. He is still making mistakes, but he still gets to his kill sequences just fine vs me. Most of the time he pulls 1 off before I can.




    Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
  • None of them work on you at the moment, however. Excepting straight aeon after blighting three kelp afflictions, but that's avoidable other ways.
  • JinsunJinsun TN, USA
    Amranu said:
    Ok, I'm not arguing that if people are actively avoiding the fight that people can't get away. That's not true at all, obviously. I don't even know why we're having this conversation if people are not able to grasp that I'm talking about the reliability of securing a kill of the class compared to other classes at the point where you begin the kill attempt.

    Fashions don't stick around for hours, but frankly I don't care if they change dolls with the new fashion rate at this point.
    From the last page:

    As to being completely unable to kill someone if they're playing defensively during a kill attempt, that's frankly complete bull. Every single class in the game is designed around being able to kill someone regardless of their actions -some- of the time if they've built up their prep properly, or they have enough momentum. 

    No, see this is the problem I'm having with your complaints. When someone argues that they're not valid, you claim that every other class has some ridiculous room control ability to allow them to kill "regardless of their actions," yet when we point out that it is a completely false statement, you come back and claim that either we're not reading or just don't understand you. At this point I think at least a few of us think that you're merely pandering to attempt to keep your class in a state that I believe several people still believe is unbalanced in your favor. The reason that we feel this is as soon as we point out that one complaint is invalid you dig up, first it was room hindrance, then mangle, then malignus, now back to hindrance or some unexplained "reliable kill." If someone were to read these threads alone, they might believe that the class was nearly unplayable, but having wanted many of the skills that you have, and fought you personally, and seen the numerous death sights in your favour vs some -very- strong opponents, it's just purely not the case. If you're this frustrated with the class maybe try a new one until classleads. Personally, I hate my class right now, but I'm tired of complaining about it because apparently the administration and populace do not agree with me. So I'm gonna sink a shit ton of ships until multiclass.
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  • edited July 2015
    Love how you took half of one sentence out of context and then argued about it. 10/10.

    I'm not even really arguing anything at all this point. My current stance is the mangle might be a bit weak as a setup for a kill sequence, but that I'm going to play with it some more and bring it up at next classleads if it continues to be a problem.

    Somehow everyone except Jovolo has interpreted this as some kind of hardline whining about Shaman not being able to get kills, which is basically completely bullshit. Only person I'm whining about is Atalkez because his curing iz 2 gud.
  • Amranu said:
    None of them work on you at the moment, however. Excepting straight aeon after blighting three kelp afflictions, but that's avoidable other ways.
    Perfect curing and running should allow you to live 100% of the time, in my opinion.

    People die from lack of knowledge or curing procedures. If you're looking for a guaranteed kill, give examples of one? You mentioned broken torso dsb doing 100%+ but if you cure torso before dsb, you'll be fine if your tanky enough as it is. Ie: not unavoidable




    Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
  • No, the S&B kill sequence is break leg prone, break torso, impale stun DSB.

    With enough strength the DSB is over 100% health in this scenario, insta-kill.
  • Not if you hold your leg apply expecting the torso and cure it. 




    Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
  • Amranu said:
    No, the S&B kill sequence is break leg prone, break torso, impale stun DSB.

    With enough strength the DSB is over 100% health in this scenario, insta-kill.
    You could apply to torso on the leg break instead and tumble, or fake apply to legs with mending and then apply to torso;tumble when they break torso. Beat those pesky S&B's
  • JinsunJinsun TN, USA
    1. The reason we see it as hard line whining is because you've voiced so loudly so many complaints about your class despite how good it is , even after they fixed your last complaint, it wasn't enough for you. You don't realize how very good your class has it.

    2. Command orb, wait, priestess. I'm gonna survive that "unstoppable kill" about 90% of the time.
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  • Shamans still have icefort and bind right?

  • This thread was basically changes to Shaman being talked about, people saying "That sounds OP let's change it", me arguing that any changes requiring the Shaman to have momentum without prep won't work right now. People choosing to take this argument as me whining about needing room hindrance. Me correcting them, talking about how I think the only problem Shaman even potentially has is kill sequences being less reliable than they perhaps should be, while admitting I haven't had nearly enough time since the changes to know this, and also stating that it may be due to biases from Shaman in it's previous form.

    People then took this somehow to mean I think Shaman should be able to reliably kill people all the time. I corrected them, they ignored me or took what I said out of context to make it seem like I was bitching. And now we've reached this point.

    Any questions?
  • Cooper said:
    Shamans still have icefort and bind right?

    Yes. Icefort has become a "defensive ability" somehow according to Amranu though. I always thought it was a great way to keep someone in the room. It might need a different spirit binding than the one that he uses or something, not sure.




    Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
  • JinsunJinsun TN, USA
    Yes, if you can't possibly have tested it, why are you even still arguing? Go test and come back with some salient points.
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  • Icefort doesn't keep anyone with a mount or leap in the room. This is basically 100% of the people I fight against soo, yeah I don't see it as a way to keep people around. It's good against prep classes, but I think it now hinders Shaman too much to be used if you want my honest opinion about it.

    Quick, interpret this as me whining about lack of Shaman room hindrance now while you still can!
  • JinsunJinsun TN, USA
    Dude, use icefort before you mangle, duh?
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  • Amranu said:
    Icefort doesn't keep anyone with a mount or leap in the room. This is basically 100% of the people I fight against soo, yeah I don't see it as a way to keep people around. It's good against prep classes, but I think it now hinders Shaman too much to be used if you want my honest opinion about it.

    Quick, interpret this as me whining about lack of Shaman room hindrance now while you still can!

    Keep in mind though, that fighting at the top tier is not going to be the same as fighting normally. Just because you can't use icefort to keep Jhui in the room doesn't make it worthless.




    Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
  • If you're not complaining, what are we arguing about?

    Shaman is fine. I've tested it personally, and you're flatout wrong about its ability to hold people down. It can kill with mangle. It can kill without mangle. Old mangle just provided a lot of wiggle room so that you could screw up a ton and get the lock anyway because they're prone for so long. Now, you have to use your time more wisely.

  • Sure, it works to keep the same scrubs in the room that would basically not have clotting and die to passive Shaman bleed. It's not effective hindrance against anyone that knows what they're doing though.

    It's worth is nearly 100% in the ability to provide a wall to tumble through against prep classes, or to stop monks jpking.
  • I dunno Xinna, I dunno. People like arguing I guess.
  • edited July 2015
    Amranu said:
    I dunno Xinna, I dunno. People like arguing I guess.


    I think part of it is that most people can't (that is to say, they don't know how) survive through Shaman as it is, so any conceived buffs to the class will be met with a hearty hell no.

    Couple that with the fact that you consistently beat 99% of the people you fight, the issues you raise just seem like complaining versus talking about class mechanic subjectively.





    Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
  • You can kill mounts. People with artie pets have paid for that defense, and is something every class has to fight against.

    You're running into the fallacy of expecting to be able to kill every person who plays defense. People who play defensively and run are always going to be able to do that against every class. Shamans are not special and do not deserve a way to permanently keep people in the room for an entire fight until you kill them.

  • I agree Cooper, Shamans are not special do not deserve a way to permanently keep people in the room for an entire fight until I kill them.

    Not sure where you thought I had -ever- suggested the above, because I certainly have never thought this should be the case.
  • edited July 2015
    Sidestepping the argument over "guaranteed" kills and all that - I'm with Dunn on this being a pretty lame fix. I'm not good at combat by any stretch of the imagination, but this still seems pretty clear to me.

    If the intent is for you to just be able to curse manaleech/invoke soulrend instead of fashioning...why not just change the truefashion chance to make it the same fashions per second as that? How does curse manaleech/invoke maligus offer anything at all interesting to combat versus normal fashioning? I guess fashioning is still nice when you're making dolls of friends and when people are shielding, but this change still feels pretty limp.

    The idea of Maligus was supposed to be a way to prep faster if you could get someone's mana low, not just a flat-out replacement for your fashioning keybind like this. The problem was that, because all of the significant mana costs you can create for an opponent (mostly bleeding) are flat, people with high mana were immune to it. So why not address the root problem - that all of the mana costs are flat? I really don't think turning curse manaleech/invoke soulrend into the new FASHION is a satisfying solution at all.

    Maligus should require some prep. That should be its niche. It shouldn't be useable like normal fashion to slow-prep. If your opponent is running as soon as they see you setting up for soulrend, then that's fine! Use normal fashions against them! If your opponent is slow-prepping you and can get away with running frequently without losing momentum, that's an opponent who you shouldn't use Maligus on. Just like kill sequences shouldn't be inescapable, neither should soulrend sequences. The problem wasn't that Maligus was escapable, the problem was that it was too hard/impossible against opponents with too-large pools of mana.

    I feel like this fix gave us the worst of both worlds. Now Maligus is inescapable and doesn't require any prep (hence boring), but seeing big benefits from it (high risk, high reward) is still impossible against opponents with large mana pools. What actually happened seems to be, functionally, exactly the same as just increasing the number of fashions you get from normal fashioning. I suppose people can shield to slightly slow it down, but since shielding kills their own offence, that doesn't seem like too significant a difference. For the most part, it seems like functionally what happened is that mangle was made more costly due to the potential to obtain fashions faster with Maligus, and that potential turned out to be problematic against some opponents because their stats alone make it unworkable, and so the fashions you get from a bare FASHION were increased (since curse manaleech/invoke soulrend can largely just be substituted for your fashion keybind). It seems sort of silly.

    Why not just give shaman something to make clot costs scale on max mana? That really seems like the obvious solution here. There's a reason that pretty much every damage ability that targets health has a scaling component and this is exactly it - in this context bleed is functionally a damage ability that targets mana, but doesn't scale on mana. So why not a curse/invocation/whatever that makes clot scale on max mana?

    (And why not do the same with blademaster impaleslash to solve the similar problem? The beauty of scaling is that it eliminates the possibility that someone is undefeatable due to sheer statistics while not increasing lethality against people with normal ranges of mana. Hell, take away the static increase from impaleslash in favour of a scaling one and you could make blademaster weaker against most opponents. Similar logic for Shaman.)
  • Shaman is one of the best PK classes in the game right now. Not sure why there's fuss over nerfing it. 
  • I'm a shaman, and I don't care that much about this Nerf.

    This has been a message from your friendly neighborhood Achimrst.
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