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Comments
S&B, once someone is prepped and if they have enough strength, has a 100% DSB that can't be tumbled away from. I think the only defence possible is pre-apply, which can be difficult to judge the timing for, and the S&B can watch for it and time the breaking to be immediately following the apply.
That being said I wasn't stating that every class had inescapable kills, just that the ability to avoid kills for classes is dictated by chance once they get to a certain point. Such as Occultists getting Hecate and tentacles largely being the deciding factor of whether or not you can get away at that point. Any class that prones/mangles with prep having chances to kill with little defensive options available at that point for the victim (Magi, Knights etc).
Fashions don't stick around for hours, but frankly I don't care if they change dolls with the new fashion rate at this point.
I'm just going to delete my opinion on the viability of Shaman or not right there. I have no idea now :P
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
As to being completely unable to kill someone if they're playing defensively during a kill attempt, that's frankly complete bull. Every single class in the game is designed around being able to kill someone regardless of their actions -some- of the time if they've built up their prep properly, or they have enough momentum.
No, see this is the problem I'm having with your complaints. When someone argues that they're not valid, you claim that every other class has some ridiculous room control ability to allow them to kill "regardless of their actions," yet when we point out that it is a completely false statement, you come back and claim that either we're not reading or just don't understand you. At this point I think at least a few of us think that you're merely pandering to attempt to keep your class in a state that I believe several people still believe is unbalanced in your favor. The reason that we feel this is as soon as we point out that one complaint is invalid you dig up, first it was room hindrance, then mangle, then malignus, now back to hindrance or some unexplained "reliable kill." If someone were to read these threads alone, they might believe that the class was nearly unplayable, but having wanted many of the skills that you have, and fought you personally, and seen the numerous death sights in your favour vs some -very- strong opponents, it's just purely not the case. If you're this frustrated with the class maybe try a new one until classleads. Personally, I hate my class right now, but I'm tired of complaining about it because apparently the administration and populace do not agree with me. So I'm gonna sink a shit ton of ships until multiclass.
I'm not even really arguing anything at all this point. My current stance is the mangle might be a bit weak as a setup for a kill sequence, but that I'm going to play with it some more and bring it up at next classleads if it continues to be a problem.
Somehow everyone except Jovolo has interpreted this as some kind of hardline whining about Shaman not being able to get kills, which is basically completely bullshit. Only person I'm whining about is Atalkez because his curing iz 2 gud.
People die from lack of knowledge or curing procedures. If you're looking for a guaranteed kill, give examples of one? You mentioned broken torso dsb doing 100%+ but if you cure torso before dsb, you'll be fine if your tanky enough as it is. Ie: not unavoidable
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
With enough strength the DSB is over 100% health in this scenario, insta-kill.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
2. Command orb, wait, priestess. I'm gonna survive that "unstoppable kill" about 90% of the time.
People then took this somehow to mean I think Shaman should be able to reliably kill people all the time. I corrected them, they ignored me or took what I said out of context to make it seem like I was bitching. And now we've reached this point.
Any questions?
Yes. Icefort has become a "defensive ability" somehow according to Amranu though. I always thought it was a great way to keep someone in the room. It might need a different spirit binding than the one that he uses or something, not sure.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
Quick, interpret this as me whining about lack of Shaman room hindrance now while you still can!
Keep in mind though, that fighting at the top tier is not going to be the same as fighting normally. Just because you can't use icefort to keep Jhui in the room doesn't make it worthless.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
If you're not complaining, what are we arguing about?
Shaman is fine. I've tested it personally, and you're flatout wrong about its ability to hold people down. It can kill with mangle. It can kill without mangle. Old mangle just provided a lot of wiggle room so that you could screw up a ton and get the lock anyway because they're prone for so long. Now, you have to use your time more wisely.
It's worth is nearly 100% in the ability to provide a wall to tumble through against prep classes, or to stop monks jpking.
I think part of it is that most people can't (that is to say, they don't know how) survive through Shaman as it is, so any conceived buffs to the class will be met with a hearty hell no.
Couple that with the fact that you consistently beat 99% of the people you fight, the issues you raise just seem like complaining versus talking about class mechanic subjectively.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
You're running into the fallacy of expecting to be able to kill every person who plays defense. People who play defensively and run are always going to be able to do that against every class. Shamans are not special and do not deserve a way to permanently keep people in the room for an entire fight until you kill them.
Not sure where you thought I had -ever- suggested the above, because I certainly have never thought this should be the case.
If the intent is for you to just be able to curse manaleech/invoke soulrend instead of fashioning...why not just change the truefashion chance to make it the same fashions per second as that? How does curse manaleech/invoke maligus offer anything at all interesting to combat versus normal fashioning? I guess fashioning is still nice when you're making dolls of friends and when people are shielding, but this change still feels pretty limp.
The idea of Maligus was supposed to be a way to prep faster if you could get someone's mana low, not just a flat-out replacement for your fashioning keybind like this. The problem was that, because all of the significant mana costs you can create for an opponent (mostly bleeding) are flat, people with high mana were immune to it. So why not address the root problem - that all of the mana costs are flat? I really don't think turning curse manaleech/invoke soulrend into the new FASHION is a satisfying solution at all.
Maligus should require some prep. That should be its niche. It shouldn't be useable like normal fashion to slow-prep. If your opponent is running as soon as they see you setting up for soulrend, then that's fine! Use normal fashions against them! If your opponent is slow-prepping you and can get away with running frequently without losing momentum, that's an opponent who you shouldn't use Maligus on. Just like kill sequences shouldn't be inescapable, neither should soulrend sequences. The problem wasn't that Maligus was escapable, the problem was that it was too hard/impossible against opponents with too-large pools of mana.
I feel like this fix gave us the worst of both worlds. Now Maligus is inescapable and doesn't require any prep (hence boring), but seeing big benefits from it (high risk, high reward) is still impossible against opponents with large mana pools. What actually happened seems to be, functionally, exactly the same as just increasing the number of fashions you get from normal fashioning. I suppose people can shield to slightly slow it down, but since shielding kills their own offence, that doesn't seem like too significant a difference. For the most part, it seems like functionally what happened is that mangle was made more costly due to the potential to obtain fashions faster with Maligus, and that potential turned out to be problematic against some opponents because their stats alone make it unworkable, and so the fashions you get from a bare FASHION were increased (since curse manaleech/invoke soulrend can largely just be substituted for your fashion keybind). It seems sort of silly.
Why not just give shaman something to make clot costs scale on max mana? That really seems like the obvious solution here. There's a reason that pretty much every damage ability that targets health has a scaling component and this is exactly it - in this context bleed is functionally a damage ability that targets mana, but doesn't scale on mana. So why not a curse/invocation/whatever that makes clot scale on max mana?
(And why not do the same with blademaster impaleslash to solve the similar problem? The beauty of scaling is that it eliminates the possibility that someone is undefeatable due to sheer statistics while not increasing lethality against people with normal ranges of mana. Hell, take away the static increase from impaleslash in favour of a scaling one and you could make blademaster weaker against most opponents. Similar logic for Shaman.)
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