Announce 4368: Puppet/Vodun Mangle

Dochitha

Announce 4368: 
* MANGLE (Vodun/Puppetry) now does a reduced amount of limb damage.

Havn't tested it, but mangle needs a nerf? Can we also have the fashions used reduced too, for now we have to mangle more limbs to stack salve use. It just made riftlock significantly harder to pull off.

Jinsun

Dochitha said:

Announce 4368: 
* MANGLE (Vodun/Puppetry) now does a reduced amount of limb damage.

Havn't tested it, but mangle needs a nerf? Can we also have the fashions used reduced too, for now we have to mangle more limbs to stack salve use. It just made riftlock significantly harder to pull off.

Tbh you guys needed this nerf. 

Dochitha

Jinsun said:

Dochitha said:

Announce 4368: 
* MANGLE (Vodun/Puppetry) now does a reduced amount of limb damage.

Havn't tested it, but mangle needs a nerf? Can we also have the fashions used reduced too, for now we have to mangle more limbs to stack salve use. It just made riftlock significantly harder to pull off.

Tbh you guys needed this nerf. 

I may be wrong.

Just tested, it still takes 2 restorations and 1 mending to cure...I am happy with this.

Okay, forget about this rant.

/end

Makarios

It only takes one restoration to cure the limb now, that was intentional.

We're aware this is a fairly significant change to both shaman and jester, but it had to happen if we want to make any future changes to the classes reallistically. Mangle simply offered too much control for time/effort invested, and opened up too many combinations that were disproportionately difficult to avoid. We'll definitely be keeping an eye on things to see how they stand now though.

The fashion costs were adjusted though, abfile has been updated.

Amranu

K, people should basically never die to Shaman now. When in trouble, press a direction multiple times and be safe!

However, as long as changes are coming along this respect that's fine. I just wish they were done at the same time. Virtually all of my methods of killing people in the top tier no longer work, soo... everyone please stand still so I can kill them now?

Elazar

^ Deal

Dunn

Told you, bro. You still have force apply/cripple for some measure of control/initiating a kill string.

Amranu

My options are severely restricted. Of what I have left against prep classes, all of it can be stopped by typing curseward once.

Don't get me wrong, I think the nerf is justified. It definitely was the main reason vodun/puppetry was broken. However, without any other changes and with the current cost of mangle, Shaman should not be able to kill anyone playing defensively. Against momentum classes I feel this change doesn't mean too much, as winning with curses/spiritlore alone without needing to hinder them with vodun was always an option. Against prep classes however, Shaman do not have a way to both hinder them and achieve a kill if the other person uses curseward liberally until they can run.

Dochitha

Right, just tested again and changes is live. 1 restoration, 1 mending done.

Yeah hoping to see good changes coming...what are the changes, any idea?

For now, confuse/mangle or force apply/cripple/force restore and hope they stay still.

Anyone get a cane of quickening, wield cane and walk away from a Shaman with style, they can only mangle one at a time, not both at once unlike other limb classes, and not proning at the time of mangling.

Jinsun

Amranu said:

K, people should basically never die to Shaman now. When in trouble, press a direction multiple times and be safe!

Dude, welcome to -every- other class. Yes some do have room hindrances, but if a person is not fighting you and actively fleeing, it should be difficult to straight murder them.

Amranu

Don't need a cane of quickening, Shaman use of vodun has always been using vodun to allow keeping someone still to gain enough momentum for a lock. That is simply no longer possible, as even one curseward will be more than enough to ensure that you can cure legs and walk out before they have a chance to lock you.

Heck, I'm sceptical a curseward is really necessary, but against other combinations one curseward should now be enough to ensure you survive 100% of the time.

Tharvis

Sent By: Makarios On 6/26/15:46

Its cheaper for jester than for shaman, mostly due to the higher fashion availability with soulrend. Keeping an eye on it though, very well may reduce it further.

Amranu

Cost increase for Shaman is not good. Maligus is not a factor in the vast majority of fights.

Tael

Don't shaman fashion faster by default anyway with truefashion?

Jovolo

Yeah, they have a 30% higher chance of a truefashion than Jesters. So what's the new cost on using mangle? If it's 3 or 4 which I'd presume it is, I'm not sure why this is a drastic nerf. You can still force an apply and mangle afterwards, just mangle twice instead. 

Mangle before was a genuine balance issue, so something like this had to happen eventually.

Dochitha

Jovolo said:

Yeah, they have a 30% higher chance of a truefashion than Jesters. So what's the new cost on using mangle? If it's 3 or 4 which I'd presume it is, I'm not sure why this is a drastic nerf. You can still force an apply and mangle afterwards, just mangle twice instead. 

Mangle before was a genuine balance issue, so something like this had to happen eventually.

Mangle requires 25 fashions and uses 7. Amranu as a good discussion on this on his thread "Shaman Room Hinderance".

Amranu

Jesters get it for 4, Shaman for 7. Ya.

Carbine

Amranu said:

Jesters get it for 4, Shaman for 7. Ya.

Are you kidding?

Do you think Achaea should revolve around you with trinkets and skills so you feel comfortable? Should every class have a bone fide strat for a kill? According to you it seems like we should.

I would very much appreciate it if you put as much thought into your combat as you do in you whinging. If you do, we may actually see some pretty cool stuff from you.  

Amranu

I have no idea what prompted that rant. I was answering Jovolo's question. Might want to check your emotions buddy.

Ahmet

Amranu said:

I have no idea what prompted that rant. I was answering Jovolo's question. Might want to check your emotions buddy.

Probably that whole other thread of you whining about the exact same change. Just a thought.

Amranu

I made several poignant arguments as to why the price increase for Shaman, in Shaman's state at the time was not fair. Several people, including Makarios agreed that changes were needed to make Maligus able to be used consistently. Changes have happened. The end.

Ahmet

Amranu said:

I made several poignant arguments as to why the price increase for Shaman, in Shaman's state at the time was not fair. Several people, including Makarios agreed that changes were needed to make Maligus able to be used consistently. Changes have happened. The end.

I didn't say your argument wasn't valid, I was just pointing out the likeliest source of his rant.

Talysin

Poignant? :0

Tael

Amranu said:

I made several poignant arguments as to why the price increase for Shaman, in Shaman's state at the time was not fair. Several people, including Makarios agreed that changes were needed to make Maligus able to be used consistently. Changes have happened. The end.

Wait, the Maligus changes happened? I didn't see any posting about it.

Jinsun

lol guys let it die. Let them have their OP class

Amranu

Currently soulrending someone with manaleech gives a minimum of 3 fashions. If they have 65% or less mana it goes up to 8.

I like the change but I think cost adjustments for several vodun abilities need to be made:

bind should definitely be increased to 3 or 4 fashions.
cripple should probably be increased to 10-12 fashions
bleed should be increased to 2 fashions

Those off the top of my head, blackout might need something too but I'm less sure about that one.

@Makarios

Dochitha

Amranu said:

Currently soulrending someone with manaleech gives a minimum of 3 fashions. If they have 65% or less mana it goes up to 8.

I like the change but I think cost adjustments for several vodun abilities need to be made:

bind should definitely be increased to 3 or 4 fashions.
cripple should probably be increased to 10-12 fashions
bleed should be increased to 2 fashions

Those off the top of my head, blackout might need something too but I'm less sure about that one.

@Makarios

I agree vodun bind going up to 3 to balance this. 4 is a bit too much. Not sure about the rest as most of them have a high fashion requirement, how many it uses becomes quite irrelevant...I often find I have like 20-40 fashions left after my kill strat.

I love the fact that curseward cannot be used while prone. Nice one @Makarios

"If they have 65% or less mana it goes up to 8."

@Amranu how was this before the change? Is the bleed x10 soulrend still work like before or soulrending at 8 fashions is now happening at higher mana loss requiement?

Amranu

I don't think old soulrend has changed, just manaleech giving more consistent results.

Cripple price needs to be increased to prevent spam hindering, same reason bind needs to be increased. Should not affect finishers much.

Thinking a bit more on bind, I really do think it needs to be brought up to 4 fashions over 3, mostly due to the increased speed at which the skill becomes accessible. Previously at a cost of 2 you could use bind and fashion once, giving you a 50% (or whatever the chance for truefashion is) chance of it being prep neutral or losing you one fashion. At 3 with the manaleech change, there is 100% chance for it to be prep neutral. Bind already being one of the more powerful vodun skills, does not need a buff and therefore should be brought up to 4.

Bleed needs increased because fashion buildup is too quick for that ability to be so cheap.

Dochitha

Amranu said:

I don't think old soulrend has changed, just manaleech giving more consistent results.

Cripple price needs to be increased to prevent spam hindering, same reason bind needs to be increased. Should not affect finishers much.

Thinking a bit more on bind, I really do think it needs to be brought up to 4 fashions over 3, mostly due to the increased speed at which the skill becomes accessible. Previously at a cost of 2 you could use bind and fashion once, giving you a 50% (or whatever the chance for truefashion is) chance of it being prep neutral or losing you one fashion. At 3 with the manaleech change, there is 100% chance for it to be prep neutral. Bind already being one of the more powerful vodun skills, does not need a buff and therefore should be brought up to 4.

Bleed needs increased because fashion buildup is too quick for that ability to be so cheap.

Yes that's assuming if every Shaman is going to use Manaleech invoke soulrend, which almost mandate attunement to Maligus, though I bet that's the only route to go now.

Dunn

So you can just spam swift curse manaleech/soul rend? For three fashions?

Amranu

Soulrend doesn't work with swiftcurse anymore, that was a fairly large change from the last classleads still in effect.

Slow curse or blight though, yes.