Battlerage

Sena

Tharvis said:

I wonder what's better, the battlerage pure damage attacks (like Psiblast) or the DoT attacks like Dragonblaze

Unless the denizen dies before the DoT finishes, it doesn't make much difference, it's nearly the same as taking the total damage all at once. For the DoT attacks that have high damage per tick, they have an additional advantage of more consistent crits (the same advantage normal bashing attacks get from being faster), so I'd say they're better than straight damage as long as the denizen survives long enough.

Dragonblaze is a lot faster than most DoT attacks, it only lasts for ~4 seconds, so it has all the advantage of DoT (multiple hits) and almost none of the disadvantage (taking time to finish).

Sena

@Jules The bigger effective supply of denizens comes from the fact that each denizen now is basically like 2-3 denizens before the changes, because the health and xp/gold were multiplied. 1 denizen with 3000 health that gives 600 xp is the equivalent of 3 denizens that each have 1000 health and 200 xp (numbers are completely made up, just an example).

Jules

That actually sounds great. 

EDIT:  question, damage is the same right?  So you really do need to follow the rule of "never try to hunt something that could ever kill you, so long as you have autocuring on" which I make it a point to follow anyway since the myriad discussions on bashing over the past year or so, but so long as you do that, you will still be okay.   

Tael

The more I've played with it, the more I like it, but the more I think there are a couple of issues that might be worth considering.

I still really dislike the way it incentivises certain class combinations - particularly how some classes just straight-up have more possible good pairings. Saying that multiclass will ameliorate that feels a little bit explotative too - while there's something to be said for the fact that multiclass will probably be independently popular, there's a degree to which this is essentially saying "don't worry, you will be able to pay to overcome this problem". IRE usually does a great job of avoiding making me feel like that, but here I'm feeling it a little bit.

I'm also with Aerek and others on the fact that I really wish this were more integrated. Having the battlerage curses just function like regular curses, taking balance normally, would be lovely, as would having them respect hindering afflictions (which it should be noted would also increase the value of battlerage afflictions that slow down a mob's ability to hinder you). This can look pretty silly too - being webbed and paralysed, but nevertheless doing some crazy leap flip blasting off of the ground and kneeing a mob when you can't even attack them normally?

As for the affliction consuming abilities, I don't see a problem with that at all. People keep bringing up that the afflictions are more useful, but again, the intent is to coordinate using them at the last moment. And they emphatically should not do much more damage than the regular damage battlerage abilities. That would create a balance nightmare - either you balance gold/xp gains for groups using the much more effective combinations and leave everyone else behind, or you balance for everyone else and the groups using the combination abilities end up overrewarded, which presents a problem for the game's economy since it affects the rate at which gold enters economy (and skews it further toward people who can script these interactions more easily). So long as it's, say, 5% or 10% more effective, that's already a pretty serious incentive/reward. The issue of dragon bashing presents an almost identical economic problem - the reward of dragon being vastly higher bashing efficiency would be pretty problematic from a balance perspective - I think the primary point of dragon is that you get another class to play around with and that it comes with a ton of utility with things like gare.

Also, I'm in the process of moving and can't log in - has fear been fixed yet? It wasn't doing anything last time I tested it.

@Sena Given that way battlerage works in groups, assuming you don't run out of targets (which seems to be relatively hard to do now if you know a reasonable number of places to go bashing), I think it's pretty much always more efficient to hunt in groups. The way you leech battlerage off of one another means that the more people you have in the group, the more per capita damage you can put out. Even if XP were split evenly between group members, ignoring the overhead of coordinating movement and all that (which is lower now that kill time is longer), it should still be more efficient to hunt in groups than solo.

Sena

Tael said:

The way you leech battlerage off of one another means that the more people you have in the group, the more per capita damage you can put out.

It's not a huge increase, since most of your damage comes from your main bashing attack.

Using shaman as an example (most classes should be similar) and assuming you just use your main damage abilities (so ignoring afflictions and combo attacks):
Solo: ~245 DPS base, ~369 DPS artied.
2 people: ~252 base, ~376 artied. About a 2-3% dps boost over hunting solo.
4 people or 6 people (it's the same either way assuming everyone is constantly attacking; 5 people is worse): ~259 base, ~384 artied. ~5-8% boost. Also notable is that, with 4+ people, you gain enough rage to use your main damage abilities (1 and 3) whenever they're off cooldown. It's just barely enough for that though, so there's not enough rage left over to really include a third ability in the rotation.

Above that it gets more complicated. You're already using the main damage abilities as often as possible, so any further rage increase will have to go towards a third ability, and that depends entirely on your class and the classes of others in the group, so it's hard to generalise. I also don't have specifics on any affliction-boosted damage. Besides that, with a group of more than 6 you're going to have a hard time attacking constantly and efficiency will drop drastically, so assuming constant attacking stops being a useful model.

Aerek

Sarapis said:

Aerek said:

 I'm impressed how quickly it came together. I know tweaks are coming, I just wanted to throw some fodder into the think tank while it's still in its infancy.

Quickly? We've been working on it since last fall!

For those of us who lived through "Ships are coming soon," 6 months is light speed!

Itorvi

Is anyone else shooting through endurance like it's nothing? I can't even clear an entire level of Manara without going from 13730 endurance to less than 30. That just happened on a very short bashing trip. I'm a level 62 monk, so not bashing above my level.

Crono

Same.  I do not think I have ever had to sleep after hunting.

Greys

@Itorvi What level fitness are you? Your level will determine your max value is but how much you regenerate I do not believe is percentile based. Also, as mentioned, now there is less downtime with hunting.

Kuy

Okay so for Magi, I went solely based on efficiency, since theoretically no fight should last long enough to see a rotation that would see maximum dps be achieved due to cooldown rates and rage generation.  Note that firefall's damage is so ridiculously small without boosted affs that you should never be using it solo.

All tests on a falcon
dpr = damage per rage spent


Windlash (8s dot): 489 damage at 14 rage = 34.9 dpr

Windlash (8s dot) with sensitivity: 650.37 damage at 14 rage = 46.5 dpr

Squeeze: 1259 damage at 36 rage = 34.9 dpr

Squeeze with sensitivity: 1674.5 damage at 36 rage = 46.5 dpr

Staffcast = 770 damage

Stormbolt (8s sensitivity = 3 staffcasts with Aldar+Nimble) = 762 damage at 25 rage = 30.5 dpr


So when we look at this, we see the most damage per rage comes from Windlash and Squeeze with sensitivity up.  However, if we have to manage Stormbolt, we're going to have to factor that into our calculations for efficiency, since we can't just add their dprs.

This means that we now have two basic combos: Stormbolt + Windlash and Stormbolt + Squeeze.  Now, remember that Stormbolt + Windlash means we clip a tic of Windlash.  This means nothing if dots snapshot, but I doubt they do.  We're going to assume that they do not.  We're also going to assume Windlash does all its damage evenly on each tic, since its AB file gives no suggestion otherwise.  Also, if its damage on application does more damage than each subsequent tic, its dpr would be increased slightly.  I like to calculate for lowest-case scenarios when I don't know all the details, so we're assuming each tic is even. [I didn't actually calculate Stormbolt + Windlash correctly. The numbers below are inflated very slightly, meaning Windlash damages listed are larger then what they actually are.  This turns out not to be important because Windlash is terrible]

Stormbolt + Windlash
-------------------
[(Damage of Stormbolt) + (Damage of Windlash w/ sensi)] / [(Rage cost of Stormbolt) + (Rage cost of Squeeze)]

[(762+ 650.37) / (25 + 14)] = 36.2 dpr

Stormbolt + Squeeze
------------------
[(Damage of Stormbolt) + (Damage of Squeeze w/ sensi)] / [(Rage cost of Squeeze) + (Rage cost of Squeeze)]

[(762 + 1674.5) / (25 + 36)] = 39.9 dpr


Now, we can go a step further.  My staffcasts give me 6.8-7.3 rage on hit.  That's not an average - that's the range I've seen them so far.  Staffcast is a 4s cooldown, but I have Aldar.  This means my staffcast is 3.4s.  I'm taking this to mean I generate about 2 rage a second, and that's not a generous estimate.

This means we can make a nice rotation... I think.

So, we have two primary combos: Stormbolt + Squeeze at 61 rage and Stormbolt + Windlash at 39 rage.  Since Squeeze combo is more efficient, we're going after that, first.  Next will be the Windlash combo.  Stormbolt should always come in a serverside alias immediately before your staffcast to ensure you're maximizing it.

31s : Squeeze, 1 rage left over.

58s : Stormbolt and squeeze are both off cooldown, 55 rage

61s : Squeeze, 0 rage left over

From this we draw that every 31 seconds, we should be launching a combo of Stormbolt -> Staff -> Squeeze -> Staff - > Staff.

So, now we have a basic answer of "What's the most efficient way to use my rage as a Magi?"

However.

Things are never that simple.  You should only use the full combo if your target will be hit by all three staffcasts.  If two staffcasts hit, the combo changes to 35.8 dpr.  This also means that Windlash wouldn't get all its hits in, so you don't want to use it either.  In this case (Your target won't last the eight seconds Stormbolt is up), you just want to squeeze, and save stormbolt + squeeze for the next target (since Squeeze is more efficient than Stormbolt).  Eventually it'll cycle around to using the combo again.

Now, the big problem here is that Windlash now has a very niche roll in solo combat: burst damage.  However, Windlash's burst comes over 8s, meaning it doesn't really do its job in solo well.

A super important note, though, is that this is solely when you are by yourself.  I need to get numbers on Firefall when it uses an aff to boost its damage, and that will change what you do if and only if  you have someone in your group and are willing to coordinate to great lengths in our text game we love so much.

tl;dr

Optimal solo Magi rotation is Stormbolt -> Staffcast -> Squeeze -> Staffcast -> Staffcast if you have 61 rage and the target will survive each hit, or Staffcast -> Squeeze -> Staffcast otherwise.  I have not calculated efficiency of Firefall in a group.

Also check my math.

Alaskar

(Newbie): Jal says, "What is rage, and why do I have 8696 of it?"

I'll have what he's having.

Sarapis

@Alaskar Finally, someone discovers what true gleam addiction does for you. You take enough gleam, your BR generation goes to the moon.

Ahmet

Alaskar said:

(Newbie): Jal says, "What is rage, and why do I have 8696 of it?"

I'll have what he's having.

Oh come on, you have to paste the whole interaction.

- 2015/06/02 05:14:06 - Jal says, "What is rage, and why do I have 8696 of it?"

- 2015/06/02 05:14:21 - A helpful Divine says, "Oh my."

- 2015/06/02 05:14:24 - Lisbethae says, "It's rather new to everyone else as well."

- 2015/06/02 05:14:25 - A helpful Divine says, "Q."

- 2015/06/02 05:14:45 - Lisbethae says, "Battlerage is a very exciting thing that happens when we are 

in battle."

- 2015/06/02 05:14:46 - Ulrike says, "HELP BATTLERAGE."

- 2015/06/02 05:15:03 - Jal says, "Oh, the number just went way down."

- 2015/06/02 05:15:05 - A helpful Divine says, "So, you're seeing that you have 8696 rage, in the 

lower-left hand panel Jal?"

- 2015/06/02 05:15:14 - Jal says, "I was, and then I hit level six."

- 2015/06/02 05:15:16 - Lisbethae says, "The more we fight, the more we build up, and with that we 

can achieve better attacks."

- 2015/06/02 05:15:23 - Ulrike says, "If you go 12 seconds or longer without using battlerage or 

gaining it, you lose it all."

- 2015/06/02 05:16:02 - A helpful Divine says, "Ok, good to know, thanks Jal. Looks like you spotted 

a bug, as you shouldn't be getting rage until level 6 at all."

- 2015/06/02 05:16:17 - Jal says, "Okies. Yeah, I got up to about sixteen thousand."

- 2015/06/02 05:16:25 - Jal says, "Seemed a bit high for anything."

- 2015/06/02 05:16:51 - A helpful Divine says, "Yeah, is a bug we'll look into, thanks."

- 2015/06/02 05:17:06 - Jal says, "Happy to help by breaking things! Usually people just get mad 

about it."

- 2015/06/02 05:17:37 - Dakuan says, "Wow, new client looks great."

- 2015/06/02 05:17:39 - A helpful Divine says, "Oh, I'm mad. I'm just going to take it out on Romeo 

and/or Juliet rather than you."

- 2015/06/02 05:17:51 - Jal says, "Aww. Don't do that!"

- 2015/06/02 05:18:13 - Jal says, "You can smite me if it makes you feel better!"

- 2015/06/02 05:18:14 - Juliet says, "I'll try to be good, Sir."

- 2015/06/02 05:18:28 - A helpful Divine says, "No no, you're much too small to be satisfying to 

smite."

- 2015/06/02 05:18:48 - A helpful Divine says, "Perhaps if you were a Troll."

- 2015/06/02 05:19:13 - Jal says, "You can make me a troll, then smite me, then!"

- 2015/06/02 05:19:28 - A helpful Divine says, "Grin."

- 2015/06/02 05:21:44 - Jal says, "So, if you're a helpful Divine, are there unhelpful Divine?"

- 2015/06/02 05:22:04 - Ulrick says, "If there is, do you really want to know is the question!"

- 2015/06/02 05:22:05 - A helpful Divine says, "Oh yes.....oh yes."

- 2015/06/02 05:22:09 - Lisbethae says, "If they were, we wouldn't say so."

- 2015/06/02 05:22:39 - A helpful Divine says, "Definitely stay away from @Sarapis , for instance. He 

will steer you in entirely the wrong direction. Bad element."

- 2015/06/02 05:23:06 - Byakko says, "HEY NOW."

- 2015/06/02 05:23:14 - Jal says, "And how do I know you're not this 'Sarapis' person?"

- 2015/06/02 05:23:33 - A helpful Divine says, "Would I lie to you Jal? Me? After how close we've 

become?"

- 2015/06/02 05:23:48 - Romeo says, "Greetings, young ones. I have arrived to answer all of your 

questions, ask them here using NEWBIE (question) or you can ask me privately using TELL ROMEO 

(question)."

- 2015/06/02 05:23:56 - Jal says, "That's precisely what I'm asking you!"

- 2015/06/02 05:24:54 - Bambi says, "14."

- 2015/06/02 05:25:04 - Bambi says, "Sorry."

- 2015/06/02 05:25:26 - A helpful Divine says, "Well, no, I wouldn't lie to you, because I am a 

helpful (see the label to the left) Divine. So now you know. Tell your friends."

- 2015/06/02 05:25:39 - Shevonne says, "Jal, I suggest you visit the shop nw of north of the fountain 

in Cyrene, fill those vials from tuns, and just ignore the man behind the curtain."

- 2015/06/02 05:25:46 - Jal says, "All righty mister or missus 'totally not Sarapis'."

Ahmet

^Crazy m8^

Sena

@Kuy Did you check whether sensitivity was actually increasing the damage of everything by 33%? You included decimals in the damage numbers with sensitivity, so I assume that was calculated instead of taken from the falcon. Others have said that sensitivity wasn't applying to battlerage damage at all.

Borran

Please keep insanity off public channels. >.>;

Atalkez

Borran said:

Please keep insanity off public channels. >.>;

Pretty sure this excludes Newbie channel.

Antonius

Yeah, Newbie is by necessity not considered an IC channel.

Melodie

Newbie is allowed to be OOC, especially since the installation of the html5 client. That said, from as far as I've witnessed, they do try to encourage to stick to IC when possible, and of course inform other channels must remain IC.

Borran

Trolls gonna troll. *shrug*

Ahmet

Borran said:

Trolls gonna troll. *shrug*

No comprende how that's OOC, at all.

EDIT: Quoted the wrong post, but you know what I meant!

Tharvis

basically the only rule on Newbie is : "Newbie questions" and "Answers to newbie questions" - IC is logically preferred, but honestly, for genuine new players I'd be surprised if there wasn't a question about mechanics or clients

Sarathai

Tharvis said:

basically the only rule on Newbie is : "Newbie questions" and "Answers to newbie questions" - IC is logically preferred, but honestly, for genuine new players I'd be surprised if there wasn't a question about mechanics or clients

I always take it as acceptable to give OOC answers to OOC questions that are relevant. For example, a question about using the client is fine, but discussing what they had for dinner is not.

Tharvis

Sarathai said:

Tharvis said:

basically the only rule on Newbie is : "Newbie questions" and "Answers to newbie questions" - IC is logically preferred, but honestly, for genuine new players I'd be surprised if there wasn't a question about mechanics or clients

I always take it as acceptable to give OOC answers to OOC questions that are relevant. For example, a question about using the client is fine, but discussing what they had for dinner is not.

basically what I meant!

Cynlael

Newbie channel does allow OOC...  It does, however say: Newbie channel is for questions and answers about how to play the game: no chatting please.

Kuy

Sena said:

@Kuy Did you check whether sensitivity was actually increasing the damage of everything by 33%? You included decimals in the damage numbers with sensitivity, so I assume that was calculated instead of taken from the falcon. Others have said that sensitivity wasn't applying to battlerage damage at all.

I didn't check that. If it's not? Though, I would think its a bug because of the way the tooltip is worded.

Alaskar

Checked some numbers again, on golem.

Golem squeeze without sensitivity is 1206. Sensitivity made no difference.

Windlash without sensitivity did 219 initially, with 45 per tick afterwards, for a total of 489 damage. Proc is one second.

The important part of this test, however: staffcast did 753 damage without sensitivity and was unaffected by sensitivity. I'm going to assume golems are immune to the denizen afflictions. 

Alaskar

Testing on a sirrocian orc, squeeze did 16%, and with sensitivity it did a pleasant 20% so I suppose they do affect battlerage abilities, but the afflictions obviously don't work on golems, which seems to make sense, now that I think about it

Tharvis

probably don't work on falcons, baalzadeens and angels either

Aktillum

Sarapis said:

@Alaskar Finally, someone discovers what true gleam addiction does for you. You take enough gleam, your BR generation goes to the moon.

Could this become a real thing please I've been dying for gleam to have a utility since it was introduced.