Welcome to the Achaea Forums! Please be sure to read the Forum Rules.

Limb Damage Equation concept

2456

Comments

  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,282 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Assuming only divine can invite into ACC, if they wanted the knowledge public, why would they bother inviting you into the ACC just to accomplish it? Seems to me like this is two completely separate issues. The divine could handle one, or both, by accepting you into the ACC/releasing the formula,  while you can handle one or both, by applying to the ACC the same way everyone else does/releasing the formula. I doubt hoarding combat knowledge that they know is going to make them willing to induct.  
  • ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited January 2015

    @Austere -  Then... consider that my appplication.

    @Jacen - I don't think some of you understand what the world "blackmail" means.  You do realize that I'm offering to contribute something valuable for free, not threatening to do so, or demanding anything, regardless of the outcome of my request... right?

    "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


          Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
      1. AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,282 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Ernam said:

        @Austere -  Then... consider that my appplication.

        @Jacen - I don't think some of you understand what the world "blackmail" means.  You do realize that I'm offering to contribute something valuable for free, not threatening to do so, or demanding anything, regardless of the outcome of my request... right?

        I shall review your application and get back to you on that.  Please allow two to the business days for the background check to finish before inquiring further? 



        No clue what's going on here. ..
        Bluef
      2. JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Woah woah, don't tag me into a post after reading Jarrel's post.
        image
        Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

        AustereJacenRangor
      3. NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Do you get invited to the ACC?

        I thought it was an application process.
      4. JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        ANNOUNCE NEWS #4166                                     (07/16/2014 at 17:56)  
        From   : Tecton, the Terraformer
        To     : Everyone
        Subject: Classleads and ACC applications
        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Now that server-side curing has been live for a while, we're going to run a special classlead season
        to pick up any abilities that need adjustments. Submissions will be open 00:00 GMT this Saturday
        (Friday night US time) through to 23:59 GMT Sunday.

        As mentioned, we're primarily focused on abilities that were adversely affected by the
        implementation of server-side curing. Please hold on to your general submissions until the next full
        round (which is in the very near future).

        Additionally, we're opening up applications to the Achaean Combat Council (ACC) - a group of players
        who work with us on combat additions and changes. If you've got a thorough understanding of your
        class mechanics, as well as an in-depth knowledge of Achaea's combat  system, please feel free to
        email me ([email protected]) with the following information:

           * Your real name
           * Your Achaean characters
           * 1 - 2 general changes you'd like to see made to Player vs Player combat in Achaea, and the
        reasoning for these changes.


        Penned by My hand on the 8th of Chronos, in the year 659 AF.
        image
        Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

        NimBluef
      5. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
        I'm flattered to be your combat theory grandpa, but I have to say that all I got out of your post is that some people seem to have the attitude that they have some inherent right to the rewards of other people's accomplishments.

        I find it somewhat annoying that you'd say what you have said, considering that I've trained dozens, if not in the hundreds, of new and intermediate players, and I spend more time in piratepad or teamview helping people on scripting or system challenges (for free) every month than most players spend playing the game.

        I'm not just putting myself on a pedestal here, because I only do it because I enjoy it, but if you're going to lecture me about giving back to the community, then you have a serious misunderstanding of the person you're recklessly throwing accusations at.

        I understand that it is the status quo to judge people based on their forum popularity and P9 friend list, but in this case, I'm going to have to ask that you take a step back and accept the fact that you actually don't know me, don't know what I've done or plan on doing, or why I do it - because you seem to be making an awful lot of assumptions.

        tl;dr No.

        "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


              Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
          1. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
            edited January 2015
            You're also just flat wrong.  Most of the "elite" members of the ACC keep secrets, and have openly stated as much.

            I've probably seen the phrase "I don't want to give too much away here, but..." A hundred times on these very forums, from members of the ACC.  I've seen a lot of people straight up censor combat logs to this end.

            "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                  Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
              1. CynlaelCynlael Member Posts: 3,257 @@ - Legendary Achaean

                AustereTharvisRangor
              2. NemutaurNemutaur GermanyMember Posts: 1,068
                Ernam said:
                You're also just flat wrong.  Most of the "elite" members of the ACC keep secrets, and have openly stated as much.

                I've probably seen the phrase "I don't want to give too much away here, but..." A hundred times on these very forums, from members of the ACC.  I've seen a lot of people straight up censor combat logs to this end.
                Probably because by even saying "I don't want to give away too much here, but..." we're breaking ACC rules? Nothing that's said in ACC is supposed to leave ACC. Feel free to ask Tecton or Makarios about it but it's in the rules
                Tharvis
              3. XinnaXinna Member Posts: 691 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                Austere said:
                I don't know why, but this has troubled me.  The more I think about it, the more irritating it gets.  Honestly,  @Ernam‌ , if you want to contribute something to the community and forever be immortalized as the limb damage solver, just release it.  If you don't, then don't.  It isn't that hard.  I don't think trying to release combat knowledge into the community on the contingency that you gain something will ever be something looked for in an ACC member.  The few members that I know are always more than willing to tell someone how to improve or where they are going wrong.  They never once refused to teach someone something just because they aren't an elite, or tried to charge for it. Keep in mind, at some point, someone helped you with combat.  Someone sat down and explained the mechanics behind something you didn't understand, and it opened up a massive gateway to becoming the fighter you are today.   That person for me will always be @Terra‌ when I first went serpent.  I will never forget what she taught me because without it, I would not be the fighter I am today.  For that,  she had my eternal respect and anytime I teach someone something, it's with the back story of her kicking my ass, so everyone knows, what I know: she was the foundation for. 

                If you have solved the limb damage formula, bravo.  Seriously.  It took someone 18(?) years to figure it out.  Even if it didn't account for runes/blunt damage, and whatever else increases limb damage,  that is no small feat. Testing to the degree required to figure it out would be mind numbing for 98% of the player base, and I think we can all say we are impressed with the IDEA behind it.  

                With that said, your next post to this thread should either be the formula or you stating you aren't going to share it.  Stop beating around the bush and either spill, or drop the subject.  We are tired of hearing about a mythical formula that you aren't going to share.  No more thread, no more pollls. Promote Manda[where appropriate], and keep the rest to yourself.  As someone who does consistent limb damage, I could careless either way, but watching you lower yourself on the respect latter because of posts like the ones in this thread is truly just sad. You're better than that 


                Aww. <3

                I still remember Jaegerl teaching me, too. One conversation with him about serpent combat, pretty much, and then everything was uphill from there.

                AustereAtalkez
              4. AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,282 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                edited January 2015
                Just realized, I don't care. Can we close this thread, since it seems to be useless now. Not sharing formula, no one is going to post on here wanting to buy your script, they can contact you in private.

                @Xinna, I remember Jaegerl breaking down serpent combat for you.  He tried to do the same for me, but it all went in one ear and out the other.  Thank god, I had you.
              5. JarrelJarrel Member Posts: 166 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
                Someone should take away his forums access. These posts looking for attention are getting on my last nerve.

                Jarrel-smalljpg

                SeftinAtalkezXinnaSilas
              6. AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,282 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                Has anyone even tested this mythical limb damage formula/manda yet?  Can we get some testimonials up in here about how great manda is? Deception on the Internet is too easy.  I want proof it actually works from someone besides creator.
              7. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                edited January 2015

                If you suspect that I am lying, then I propose that you simply not use my systems.  I can't say I'm really that excited to be helping people who don't consider me an honest person (trust me, this isn't my day job - I don't care if you use it or not).  You might want to review Help Scams which clearly states that shrubbing is a result of dishonest or deceptive sales.  Note:  I am not a shrub.

                "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                      Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                  1. KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormMember Posts: 3,178 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                    edited January 2015
                    From the Manda website:

                    Accurate to a single hitpoint, regardless of stance, weapon, opponent's health, etc, using the exact limb damage equations the game engine uses

                    Unless you've been given access to the limb damage formula used by the game engine, this is a pretty bold (and unsubstantiated) statement to make.

                    For the record, I support your decision to sell your work, just not the unnecessary, argumentative hyperbole that seems to surround it.

                    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
                  2. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                    edited January 2015
                    Klendathu said:
                    From the Manda website:

                    Accurate to a single hitpoint, regardless of stance, weapon, opponent's health, etc, using the exact limb damage equations the game engine uses

                    Unless you've been given access to the limb damage formula used by the game engine, this is a pretty bold (and unsubstantiated) statement to make.

                    For the record, I support your decision to sell your work, just not the unnecessary, argumentative hyperbole that seems to surround it.

                    I actually doubt that the equation I use is exactly the same, in written form, but it is mathematically equivalent.  In a way that y = 2x is the same as y = 4x/2  or  2y = 4x.  (These are the exact same equation, just expressed in different forms).

                    Sorry if there was any confusion on this, but I think it's been pretty clearly stated that I developed this on my own, and that the equation did not come from IRE in any way.

                    "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                          Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                      1. KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormMember Posts: 3,178 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                        Ernam said:
                        Klendathu said:
                        From the Manda website:

                        Accurate to a single hitpoint, regardless of stance, weapon, opponent's health, etc, using the exact limb damage equations the game engine uses

                        Unless you've been given access to the limb damage formula used by the game engine, this is a pretty bold (and unsubstantiated) statement to make.

                        For the record, I support your decision to sell your work, just not the unnecessary, argumentative hyperbole that seems to surround it.

                        I actually doubt that the equation I use is exactly the same, in written form, but it is mathematically equivalent.  In a way that y = 2x is the same as y = 4x/2  or  2y = 4x.  (These are the exact same equation, just expressed in different forms).

                        Sorry if there was any confusion on this, but I think it's been pretty clearly stated that I developed this on my own, and that the equation did not come from IRE in any way.
                        I do understand basic algebra, don't worry on that score. However, it doesn't change the fact that you cannot substantiate your claim that Manda uses the exact limb damage equations the game engine uses without access to the game engine's equation. You could be close, you may even be 100% matching, but you cannot prove it.

                        For 20 USD, I'd actually consider buying Manda, apart from it taking some ridiculous number of hits to break limbs as a bard.

                        Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
                      2. JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,305 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                        You just don't know though. You're extrapolating and interpolating, filling in the gaps with information you don't have, but can make an educated guess at. You're making subjective assumptions based on how you imagine the code would be implemented. 

                        By claiming something to be exactly equal, you are implying that you have actually compared them. You haven't. You haven't seen IRE's formula. You have only seen the results of using IRE's formula, and using your own, within the boundaries and limitations of the tests you have conducted.

                        You may can prove that the two equations are mathematically equivalent on a given range, or a sequence of ranges (which I still don't believe is possible). You still have to fill in gaps, or project beyond the boundaries of the test, and you cannot prove that the equations are equivalent at these locations, because you don't have data at these locations.


                        (That equation is not quite correct, btw. Its y = 9055.5x^4 - 90555x^3 + 316942x^2 - 452773x + 217331). And yes, its a fourth order polynomial made to fit 5 data points, but it serves as proof that things aren't always what you think they ought to be.)
                        image
                        RangorMathonwy
                      3. AndregorAndregor Member Posts: 98 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
                        edited January 2015
                        Who cares if his equation is exact or not if it works 99.99% of the time (or 100%)? Sheesh. Everyone needs to chill and stop nitpicking. If you wouldn't use it, click no and move on. Now my glass of wine is empty.  
                        image
                      4. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                        Jacen said:
                        You just don't know though. You're extrapolating and interpolating, filling in the gaps with information you don't have, but can make an educated guess at. You're making subjective assumptions based on how you imagine the code would be implemented. 

                        By claiming something to be exactly equal, you are implying that you have actually compared them. You haven't. You haven't seen IRE's formula. You have only seen the results of using IRE's formula, and using your own, within the boundaries and limitations of the tests you have conducted.

                        You may can prove that the two equations are mathematically equivalent on a given range, or a sequence of ranges (which I still don't believe is possible). You still have to fill in gaps, or project beyond the boundaries of the test, and you cannot prove that the equations are equivalent at these locations, because you don't have data at these locations.


                        (That equation is not quite correct, btw. Its y = 9055.5x^4 - 90555x^3 + 316942x^2 - 452773x + 217331). And yes, its a fourth order polynomial made to fit 5 data points, but it serves as proof that things aren't always what you think they ought to be.)

                        If limb damage showed that people with 100hp took 1 hit, 200 took 3 hits, 300 took 5 hits, 400 took 7 hits, and 500hp took 217341 hits, then my equations would still work correctly.

                        There are often times that several different functions provide 100% accurate data, but the important thing to note here is that they're all providing 100% accurate data.

                        "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                              Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                          1. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

                            Klendathu said:
                            For 20 USD, I'd actually consider buying Manda, apart from it taking some ridiculous number of hits to break limbs as a bard.

                            I haven't actually bothered setting Manda up for classes that don't have "dynamic" limb damage, which I consider bard to be a member of.  While they could theoretically benefit from the use of multiple rapiers, that's pretty rare and most people wouldn't bother applying that knowledge even with access to it.

                            Pretty much just knights, bards, monk on the radar, for the foreseeable future.

                            "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                                  Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                              1. AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,282 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                                edited January 2015
                                Ernam said:

                                If you suspect that I am lying, then I propose that you simply not use my systems.  I can't say I'm really that excited to be helping people who don't consider me an honest person (trust me, this isn't my day job - I don't care if you use it or not).  You might want to review Help Scams which clearly states that shrubbing is a result of dishonest or deceptive sales.  Note:  I am not a shrub.
                                Scams do not protect ooc purchases, do they? ...I wasn't going to buy your system.. what do I need it for?  Dragonform?  I can count to four, no worries.   I just wanted to see if anyone would step forward and say it was solid and had not fallen apart under any health range.  Saying it is 100% accurate is a tall order and I just wanted to know if anyone would/could backup the claim from their own testing.  If anything,  testimonials would only help you...

                                Been working on my own formula for a few weeks now out of boredom, and while I can get close, it isn't perfect.  It is frustrating, so I understand why you think that you should make something off it.  I was simply wanting to know if it failed, so I knew how far to push mine for reasonable accuracy. I can sell a "perfect formula" all day,  but that doesn't mean it will never fail.  1 hp is the difference in fall or success.  With such a broad array of weapons and damage, the word prefect just worries me.  There is no physical way you have tested every single weapon damage on every single health point.  While I am sure you have tested, I am sure those who bought it have as well, which is why I asked them.  I figured this thread was relevant to the discussion, but I can probably just PM them instead, if my request hurts your feelings
                              2. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                                edited January 2015

                                There are dozens of people using Manda out there, but I advise that they don't disclose that they're using it to avoid people developing tactics/illusions specifically geared for defeating it (although it has fantastic anti-illusion - it's just a precaution).

                                However, anyone using it is of course welcome to disclose this on their end, and share their experience.

                                edit:

                                And while I haven't actually asked IRE, I have always assumed that scams include OOC transactions, particularly since it specifically mentions using credits (which is the form of payment used for my systems, most of the time).  While I wouldn't consider a coding mistake a "scam", a direct actual "lie" would be.  If users ever encounter a problem, bug, or math error, they are encouraged to inform me, at which point I will immediately fix it (however I have yet to have a single report of limb damage calculation error).

                                "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                                      Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                                  1. AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,282 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                                    edited January 2015
                                    Ernam said:

                                    There are dozens of people using Manda out there, but I advise that they don't disclose that they're using it to avoid people developing tactics/illusions specifically geared for defeating it (although it has fantastic anti-illusion - it's just a precaution).

                                    However, anyone using it is of course welcome to disclose this on their end, and share their experience.

                                    edit:

                                    And while I haven't actually asked IRE, I have always assumed that scams include OOC transactions, particularly since it specifically mentions using credits (which is the form of payment used for my systems, most of the time).  While I wouldn't consider a coding mistake a "scam", a direct actual "lie" would be.  If users ever encounter a problem, bug, or math error, they are encouraged to inform me, at which point I will immediately fix it (however I have yet to have a single report of limb damage calculation error).
                                    I believe when the subject of buying credits from someone ooc came up,  it was allowed with the understanding that ire will not cover any scams.  I don't see ire bothering to enforce something they have no access to.  I have never thought of you as being low enough to sell a fake system, don't worry. 

                                    To be honest, I wasn't accusing you of scamming in the first place.  I was merely asking what kind of accuracy others had experienced using this.  I know the first formula I managed to hack up fell apart when someone with access to a different weapon tested it.  I have seen logs of your system[I assumed] in use and I didn't feel like searching for them and then messaging random people I don't know just to ask if it ever failed them.  

                                    As for Ai, while your scripts can be and probably are hidden,  if someone really wanted to take the time to learn how to break it, they could just get a bootleg copy[you can't hide the triggers], or buy it from you.  Either way, I assume that you would fix the problem as soon as it came up, so there is little risk of this. 

                                    Edit: was it Trey that used to offer credits for people to order him food delivery?  I doubt ire shrubs anyone he says, "I sent <person> credits and my pizza never showed up"
                                  2. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

                                    People are more than welcome to try to crack it.  Good luck!

                                    "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                                          Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                                      1. NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                                        Ernam said:

                                        People are more than welcome to try to crack it.  Good luck!

                                        Does that include reverse engineering your formula? :3 That could be a fun weekend project. :3
                                      Sign In to Comment.