Howdy, Stranger!
Categories
- 6.2K All Categories
- 3.1K Everything Achaea
- 1.5K North of Thera
- 26 Archives of the Terraformer
- 257 The Matsuhama Arena
- 885 The Golden Dais of Creation
- 299 The Scarlattan Theatre
- 149 The Blank Canvas
- 2K Getting Help
- 412 General Questions
- 258 Quick Class Questions
- 1.3K Tech Support
- 313 Client Help
- 486 Curing Systems and Scripts
- 841 Off-Topic
- 255 The Wander Inn
- 586 The Universal Membrane
- 298 Class Discussions
- 298 Individual Class Sections
- 20 Alchemist
- 9 Apostate
- 30 Blademaster
- 9 Depthswalker
- 14 Druid
- 4 Infernal
- 20 Jester
- 19 Magi
- 34 Monk
- 11 Occultist
- 8 Paladin
- 7 Priest
- 29 Runewarden
- 18 Sentinel
- 26 Serpent
- 20 Shaman
- 9 Sylvan
Limb Damage Equation concept
I've noticed a lot of people want limb damage equations, but not everyone necessarily wants a pre-made limb damage tracker (like Manda).
I realized I could pretty easily just distribute a non-interface type system that basically consists of a simple function that returns limb damage in % format.
Using this, people could simply incorporate this into existing systems they use, or make their own. All it would do is create a function such as calculate_limb_damage(inputs), and would return a number between 0.00 and 100.00 representing limb damage. No triggers, no displays, no GUI, no features, no nothin'.
So the question: Would you be interested in such a system? For the sake of answering, assume that it is perfectly accurate (because it would be), and that it'd work for all classes, weapon types/stats, attacks, stances, artefacts, and so on.
[poll is anonymous to encourage objective results]
I realized I could pretty easily just distribute a non-interface type system that basically consists of a simple function that returns limb damage in % format.
Using this, people could simply incorporate this into existing systems they use, or make their own. All it would do is create a function such as calculate_limb_damage(inputs), and would return a number between 0.00 and 100.00 representing limb damage. No triggers, no displays, no GUI, no features, no nothin'.
So the question: Would you be interested in such a system? For the sake of answering, assume that it is perfectly accurate (because it would be), and that it'd work for all classes, weapon types/stats, attacks, stances, artefacts, and so on.
[poll is anonymous to encourage objective results]
0
Comments
I could! However, that'd spoil the fun. For the sake of discussion, simply assume that it is perfectly accurate. If and when it's released, its lack of error "in the field" would be evidence of its accuracy.
I'd personally rather just have the formulas be public, but who knows if I can pay enough to make that desirable for you.
As for the black box, that's just how it has to be. If it weren't for the potential of distributing it, I never would have put the work in (pushing 150-200 hours for BM and S&B alone). Thus the parodox of "if it was free, it wouldn't exist in the first place" begins.
ETA Just to clarify a bit.
Just because the server uses an exact equation to calculate limb health and limb damage, doesn't necessarily mean its possible to determine what that equation is. We're only given access to a small set of maximum health values to test, and a small set of damage values to apply to them.
Perhaps there's some underlying mathematical concept I'm missing, but I don't see how you can determine the formula within smaller than double digit precision on the max health.
The thing is, there is a way to solve it, perfectly, it's just obviously really complex to do - which is why nobody has done it prior to this (particularly since the two classes I started with are both brand new). There have been several mathematicians famous for developing methods that allow you to derive equations from windows of uncertainty, particularly if you have many such windows that all originate from a single, common function. I studied this and applied it. It gets exponentially more difficult with more input variables (health, weapon damage, stats, stance, laguz, bands, etc) but with enough tinkering, they can all be ironed out one at a time, not unlike a rubix cube.
The only "assumption" that I use, in any of my equations, is that there were no unreal numbers or imperfect fractions in the equation (ie. I assumed that IRE didn't put in like a coefficient of 5.6725267 just for funsies - although I do allow for roots, derivatives, and constants such as e or π, but haven't seen them used yet). Aside from that, everything I used is mathematically sound. I will also mention that I have far more than 300 data points. Like... that's off by several orders of magnitude.
Eg. (HP/3)*Level is very different from (HP*Level)/3.
[spoiler] PS. You taking long to figure out how to code something, that others can easily figure out in 1/4 the time is not justification for massively overpricing something. [spoiler]
Seems as if you have no clue what we're even talking about, and I'm not going to waste any time explaining to you.
Anyways, going back to working on other coding now.
It's hard to put this modestly, but I will go ahead and go full disclosure. I don't get much of a kick out of Achaea anymore, because I feel that the outcome of fights almost never comes down to skill, anymore, and the art of 1v1 combat is becoming more and more of a fringe hobby than a practical skill.
While skill and experience do impact the outcome of 1v1 fights, your level of artefacts, your latency, the specific class matchup, and your client-side systems are usually significantly bigger factors in high-end combat (since at the high end of combat, differences in skill level are generally small due to both people being high-end fighters already).
Since I generally have every artefact available for my current class, and I have arguably the best defensive/offensive scripting available in the game, and I consider myself to be similarly skilled as the high-end fighters of the game (not necessarily moreso, but enough that the difference is a minor factor) - the outcome of fights typically comes down to class matchup, latency, or uncontrollable factors like TFs, relics, or staffs of nicator.
This phenomenon is demonstrated when I change class, and the list of "highly skilled" players that I can typically beat, or typically lose to, shifts almost immediately. For instance as a BM or Priest I can easily beat apostates, but as a monk, it was virtually out of the question. I can easily destroy Serpents as a monk, but as a priest (thanks to forced Bedevil), serpents are damn near impossible to survive against.
So basically, while I believe that there's no such thing as a skill cap, there is definitely a threshold at which improving skill stops being a major impact, and starts being an art that doesn't necessarily change things very much. I see myself at this point (other people's opinion here is meaningless to me), so combat stopped being very fun for me.
That's why about 95% of the time I spend on Achaea these days is spent conceptualizing, developing, releasing, supporting, and improving various systems that help other people reach their goals. It gives me something to do, while simultaneously providing myself the same boost in script effectiveness (I use Godzilla and Manda myself, which has greatly boosted my ability to win fights).
As for profit, there are several reasons why I charge for the systems - one of which being of course, that I value my time and don't intend on donating hundreds/thousands of hours for free. Specifically for Godzilla, I made it expensive so that it'd limit the userbase, as if the game is saturated with Godzilla users, the system stops providing the massive advantage over those without it that it does (and thus reducing its value). It's also only geared for the top 10% of the playerbase anyways, as you still need a very strong understanding of combat theory to use it effectively. Manda, on the other hand, is geared to (eventually) be useful for every class that uses limb damage, which is why it is modestly priced ($20 is hardly something to be upset about, that's an hour or less of work for most adults) - while still compensating me a little bit for the fact that it is a system that requires constant updates, improvements, and support.
There are dozens of examples of "free" systems out there with shoddy or non-existent support, lackluster coding efficiency, poor update frequency and bug-fix turnaround, and minimal or at best "barely adequate" concept development (see: other affliction trackers out there). I go the extra mile because if people are going to pay for the system, it should be the best system possible, which is the core design basis for everything that I make (that I charge for).
Does this answer your concern?
I assumed from the start of this project that as a result of myself charging for people to have access to limb damage equations, IRE's reaction would be to simply release them.
Despite what other's might think or even claim, I don't believe anyone has ever actually solved the real limb damage equations (although I've seen a few that approximate "breakpoints" within a reasonable margin of error).
I think that now that the real equations are out there, but generating income for me, IRE is has lost the "mystery" factor behind limb damage, so now that the cat's out of the bag (for some people), I think they may as well release it to everyone.
If they do this, I would be nothing but happy. I'll have made the game more playable for everyone, and (ego warning) have left a major impact on the game (for the better). If you're reading this Sarapis/Tecton, note that I also wish you'd publicize the equations, even at my own loss!
As for exposing things like limb damage equations: people have gotten by without it for years and are extremely accurate with their error-prone limb counters. I don't think exposing this will be a good idea. I would consider something like solving the limb damage equation 'combat knowledge'. I am not so sure everything needs to be given away to every player. That removes a lot of the fun for people figuring things out for themselves. I know this is half the fun for me and a lot of other people. Even discussing strategies on forums and telling people how they should play their class removes a lot of the fun from them because whatever they do, someone will have done it/said it before them. I would rather this stuff rattle around in game where people learn from each other and enjoy it and feel like they aren't just doing what someone else already has.
Hard to say, really, but it could be a slippery slope of exposing too much. I don't think this in particular being released would ruin much, but it would at least remove some of the fun for someone else figuring it out in order to have a tiny advantage in combat for themselves.
Honestly, I don't think limb damage equations are necessary at all for most people. The only classes that I think it's really worth the trouble are monk and blademaster, and to a smaller extent knights, because they're the only classes that the total amount of hits require to break can shift during combat. The age old method of just guestimating and checking with a single limb break works for all but a few classes.
Blademasters pretty much need the equations (or a decent method of guessing), due to how their attacks work (off-limb damage, frequently varying stances, 5-6 different limb damage attacks available). For BMs, particularly "good" ones (that are skilled enough to use the variety of stances/attacks efficiently), the guess-and-check method becomes completely useless. I specifically invented Manda almost solely for Blademaster, for this purpose, and am only venturing into other classes because a lot of people are asking me to.
Monk: It's also particularly good for monks who wish to fully use combinations of punches, kicks, and stance changes, all of which have different impacts on limb damage. Guess-and-check works well enough if you stick to a single stance (typically Dragon) and are willing to accept that thumb-rules (point systems) are going to occasionally be wrong. Many other monks just eliminate kicks entirely due to the uncertainty, and just use RHK+punches exclusively to be more accurate with their breaks. What you have here is a huge loss of combat options solely due to not fully understanding limb damage equations, which is something that can be entirely eliminated with real, 100% accurate equations that take into account every variable that influences limb damage and can always predict exactly when limbs will break. It also eliminates the need to break a limb to determine if your guesstimation was correct, cutting down on total prep time. Further, it allows a lot of other really powerful utilities, like Manda's "most efficient path to prep" algorithm, which considers all combinations of attacks, stances, weapon choices, etc, to show you how to achieve whatever prep you're going for in the absolute minimum amount of time. It's not something a player couldn't theoretically do, but they'd probably do it much more slowly, and with a non-zero margin of error.
Knights don't need the equations, but it can be helpful at times. For those who wish to be able to switch weapon types (for efficiency or practicality) need the equations to combine different weapon hits in a prep path. As a runewarden S&B Knight, I already have at least 32 different options between Slice and Rend alone, due to having 4 levels of each weapon type, and having the option of using laguz on any of them. Obviously one doesn't need to keep all of these options open, but having 3-4 is certainly a powerful tool for someone who knows that they need exactly 7.5%-8.5% limb damage on their next attack if they want to prep a limb to break for their fastest longsword to break it with its 5.5% damage slice. (a runed broadsword would break it early, and a speed longsword wouldn't prep it).
For dual cutting (aka old) knights, missing with uneven weapons frequently created uncertainty in limb breaks, which is also eliminated by efficient use of such a system. It can also be used to determine when to hit with a different weapon to avoid the need to single-slash for the last hit to prep (which I personally hate having to do because it hugely impacts affliction pressure/momentum). While this isn't that common, it's still 100% avoidable with the correct math/tracking.
The system also allows something that absolutely nobody else is able to do - tracking limb damage accurately through opponents' max health changing. This is an increasingly common trick that is 100% countered by having a complete understanding of limb damage equations and the underlying mechanisms that emply them. Manda, for example, can with 100% accuracy, tell you how things have changed if your opponent swaps girdle/bracet and instantly changes their max health by 40% mid-fight, or uses/loses Aria, Jera, icon tuning, hunters elixir, weathering, and so on.
None of this is "necessary", just as being mathematically certain that there's a 17.5% chance that an opponent still has asthma is not "necessary", but these things are certainly an edge, and they come with absolutely no drawback.
@Jhui @Rangor I'd prefer simply simplifying the equations in lieu of releasing them (sortof the same thing since they'd be much easier to determine). The current equations are not inherently that complex, but include so many variables that they're really hard to pin down, and are really hard to isolate due to constraints on data point collection (rudimentary methods of solving for equations require exact points, not windows of uncertainty).
However, instead of changing or releasing any of the limb damage equations, I think it'd be a much better solution to just have a way of assessing limb damage more accurately, which would in turn probably result in data more people are capable of determining an equation from. It'd also kindof nullify the very need for the equations, as people could use such an ability to quickly and accurately determine their opponents' limb damage mid-combat. While I tip my hat to IRE for Limbprobe/Sawbones, I do have to say that it's pretty useless in most cases, particularly for knights and BMs whose attacks are frequently several times smaller than the Limbprobe "windows". The only class I'd ever consider using it for is Monk, but even then, only to determine when people have pre-existing limb damage or to see if someone cured something while out of the room, not to actually determine the number of hits I need to break their limbs.
Blackmail? What? I was suggesting that IRE might disclose the mechanics behind limb damage now that some people have access to it and others do not (based on who pays a 3rd party for access to it). The whole "keep the limb damage stuff secret" gimmick stops working the second someone figures out what it is and starts distributing it to a select portion of the playerbase, so it would make sense to just toss it out in the open for everyone to keep things fair.
That's nothing close to blackmail, and once more, if you're going to simply assume that I'm "lying" (and ignore the fact that my equations have yet to ever yield a mistake), then that's on you, but please don't pollute an otherwise objective discussion with unfounded accusations.
- Limb Counter - Fracture Relapsing -
"Honestly, I just love that it counts limbs." - Mizik Corten
I love the concept of Limbprobe, because such an ability should cost balance (unlike what classlead 30 is asking for), however I think it should be much more accurate.
I would have myself suggested a single-limb alternative for Limbprobe that provides the option of seeing the exact amount of limb damage on a single limb, instead of the approximate damage of all six... but I ran out of classleads (still waiting on the invitation to the Ashtan's Cool-kids Club).
Trust me, figuring it out is not fun. It took months of doing nothing but pure math (including more learning how to do the math necessary to do it), and even more time actually doing it, and that was just for Blademaster, which didn't include the weapon damage variable. I've also spent god knows how much time standing around slashing people's limbs, ruining immersion, asking for testers on market in the name of "science", and so on. The whole thing sucked, I just got obsessive about it and refused to accept that it couldn't be done.
And having finally crossed the finish line, I seriously doubt anyone would be able to do it without spending the same amount if not more time, which I wouldn't wish upon anyone, and that's assuming they were able to actually solve it at all in the end (I gave up on it at least twice).
Ok, I've decided what to do.
Unlike Manda and Godzilla (which are actual systems), I don't really find it ethical to charge people just for the equations, which is nothing more than a mere quantification of the game itself.
Give me an invitation to the ACC, and I will disclose every bit of information I have on limb damage to both them and the public, including the painstaking process that goes into how to solve for them. After this is done, I think we shouldn't have much problem refining and/or developing the rest of the limb damage equations for other classes/abilities in the game, putting a nail in the coffin of the mystery of limb damage forever. (and I won't have to do it all myself!)
This will accomplish everyone's goal of finding out what they are (for free) while solving my goal of being able to have a positive, lasting impact on combat theory, without having to go super-saiyan (Celani) and losing my characters.