Classleads - January 2015

Talysin

Calaurn said:

Maybe give shaman the ability to sever tie between victim and his/her doll? Just run to a friendly shaman and have them perform the costly ritual requiring time and concentration.

Ritual requirements: Performing shaman and victim must both be present in same room. Be mutual allies (or not). Neither moves for given amount of time (10/20/30/something seconds).

Result: 1) No effect if the ritual is stopped or fails to complete. 2) All steps are completed but the ritual fails, in which case some fashions are lost. 3) All steps are completed, the ritual succeeds, in which case major amount of fashions are lost or the doll itself is destroyed (whichever suits the game). 4) In all above cases the owner of doll is alerted of the ritual.

Side effects... Drain both parties for considerable mana and willpower.

We can unravel puppets no problem. I do it all the time after duels.

Here's my two cents: Yes to fashions nerfs, but need buffs to make fashioning somewhat offensive.

Jovolo

Nobody liked my tether idea

Nim

Are people seriously suggesting refashioning every X minutes is difficult? Not even sure why it should be at six instead of three, if refashioning would reset it anyway, so I'm curious about the argument there. (edit: might make sense to have certain puppetry abilities reset it too, though, esp. if they're in the same room?)

One thought I had was that puppet travel could cost X fashions from all short-term dolls, but there's nothing stopping a vodun user from just using some other travel ability to slow prep, so probably, it should just be pulled in line with other travel powers in some way.

Also, the fact that fashioning is slow and tedious is not balanced by a 60 minute decay time, and vice versa. Two problems make two problems, not a solution.

Atalkez

Achimrst said:

Atalkez said:

The tail end of the fight:

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/604dc789

10minutes after the first fight ended

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/31fece99

Still say the doll needs to be destroyed on death. Anyone who thinks this is "working" is out of their mind.

Looks like Vrass won and than griefed you, I didn't think the BM instant kill was command-able :O

I agree that certain things shouldn't be command-able like that, although Maligus is made to work that way too, so it's a double edged sword. Not really the shamans fault for using their abilities as intended, but it was rather douchey if you ask me. The guy has a doll of you, hire and get him killed, that destroys the doll! You can travel off plane or to a ship or into the arena even to avoid things like that. I have had people do that before too. Although through commanding you, Vrass didn't even need a full doll to do that, just 25 fashions. She probably still has at least 80 more too as it looked like she had a full doll of you :P

I have never said an hour wasn't too long, I think the only reason a doll lasts after a person dies is because of starbursting and things like that, idk really it's not like I personally can think of a reason we would need a doll after we kill someone with it. Other than it's an actual physical object.

I have read through the stuff written since I last read in here and just wanted to say.

@Jarrod I use vodun to literally kill people all the time I never thought of it as just hindering ever since throttle was made 0 fashions in room and 1 outside of it.

I wonder of some kind of compromise in which certain abilities in Vodun could be looked at and made similar to how throttle was changed? Maybe making less fashions needed for stuff in general and change most of the skills to area? idk what a true solution would be probably only Tecton or Makarios would really know that.

I wonder if a solution could be in going to a city in the first place, perhaps if a vodun/puppetry user is in a city their dolls decay to a lower amount of fashions faster?

Since standing on guards seems to be the issue here.

Last comment on the issue.

No other class has the ability to force you to basically hide for an hour past a certain point if you don't want to die 2-4 times. I'm all for interesting abilities, but I shouldn't be forced to afk on a ship for an hour because I lost a single fight. Make the fashions decay rapidly, increasing exponentially, between fashions or something. If you haven't fashioned in 3 minutes, your doll is gone - the same as limb prep.

Jovolo

I'd be very surprised if Shaman and Jester retained that ridiculous, unique advantage. It proobably will be changed to more appropriately resemble other prep class designs if the big guys see sense on the issue

If you fight a Jester/Shaman and lose (or they just survive the fight and run away when they have ample fashions), you run the risk of not being able to enter private property, or hunt, or duel, etc, for the next hour. It is pretty telling that the people campaigning for this to persist as a mechanic are Shamans or Jesters themselves.

Khairt

There's no reason they shouldn't either. You misspelled "agrees with me" as "sees sense" Not that it matters much to me if every class has their unique abilities deleted in the name of game balance. I'd be able to stop class changing. Oooh or better yet: finally buy my cloak of phasing!

Jovolo

Khairt said:

There's no reason they shouldn't either. You misspelled "agrees with me" as "sees sense" Not that it matters much to me if every class has their unique abilities deleted in the name of game balance. I'd be able to stop class changing. Oooh or better yet: finally buy my cloak of phasing!

But my opinion is good sense

Aerek

Atalkez said:

Last comment on the issue.

No other class has the ability to force you to basically hide for an hour past a certain point if you don't want to die 2-4 times. I'm all for interesting abilities, but I shouldn't be forced to afk on a ship for an hour because I lost a single fight. Make the fashions decay rapidly, increasing exponentially, between fashions or something. If you haven't fashioned in 3 minutes, your doll is gone - the same as limb prep.

I think most of the world agrees with you. The only folks disagreeing with this statement are Shamans.

Herenicus

As an Apostate, it seemed a tall order to stack more than a few afflictions before @Kuy would toss a hangedman, reset his afflictions, and continue prepping towards obliterate. Said the best defense right now was directing yo mama jokes at characters employing the tactic

Avto

Puppetry being slowest prep is wrong, takes good 3-4 minutes for SnB knights to setup enough limbs on high health players to go for 50/50 RNG damnation kill.

Achimrst

Eld said:

Achimrst said:

Atalkez said:

The tail end of the fight:

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/604dc789

10minutes after the first fight ended

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/31fece99

Still say the doll needs to be destroyed on death. Anyone who thinks this is "working" is out of their mind.

Looks like Vrass won and than griefed you, I didn't think the BM instant kill was command-able :O

That wasn't brokenstar, it was bladesuicide (equivalent to heartstop) because there was no way he was going to survive the bleeding. No commands involved.

I didn't say it was brokenstar, blade suicide is an instant kill... I don't think that should be command-able either way.

Jovolo

It wasn't commanded. Atalkez bladesuicided because he couldn't survive the Bleed

Khairt

I am not a shaman and I would absolutely prefer any player death destroying a doll of that player than just have the 3 minute reset taking away the slow prep that has been the unique selling point of the class for as long as I've been playing. I'd also love knights to have their prep time back and pit back and obliterate and telepathy wrench. I'd rather changes be buffs that bring classes up into line with their own WTFBULLSHIT abilities/tactics. Text combat doesn't need to be duller; juice that shit up to 11, son. Or don't, I just would rather read about amazing over the top high fantasy things happening over "so then I beat his herb balance by .2 lolololol"

#stopmathingupmyfantasyworldnerds #clearlyclearlynotjunojung

Achimrst

Jovolo said:

If you fight a Jester/Shaman and lose (or they just survive the fight and run away when they have ample fashions), you run the risk of not being able to enter private property, or hunt, or duel, etc, for the next hour. It is pretty telling that the people campaigning for this to persist as a mechanic are Shamans or Jesters themselves.

Shaman don't just survive a fight, if they ran away they are done getting fashions and are going to kill you.

Jovolo

You literally make no sense to me

Jacen

So, given that bleeding someone out from anywhere on the main continent is a possible strategy, you don't think a shaman would super slow prep, get fashions, bail to a guardstack, then bleed someone out?

Arador

Even before limb decay, you could at least get someone to reset your limbs if the fight broke up, so the Monk could not come back within an hour and just kill you. 

Seriously, this whining about an outdated, horribly griefable, broken mechanic that in no way shape or form fits with the direction of combat in Achaea is getting old, stupid and annoying. 

Take it to another thread and let's discuss some other classleads here. 

Achimrst

Jacen said:

So, given that bleeding someone out from anywhere on the main continent is a possible strategy, you don't think a shaman would super slow prep, get fashions, bail to a guardstack, then bleed someone out?

Bleed is never 100% kill, there are many ways to get out of it and than you just wasted your fashions.

Ernam

Arador said:

Even before limb decay, you could at least get someone to reset your limbs if the fight broke up, so the Monk could not come back within an hour and just kill you. 

Seriously, this whining about an outdated, horribly griefable, broken mechanic that in no way shape or form fits with the direction of combat in Achaea is getting old, stupid and annoying. 

Take it to another thread and let's discuss some other classleads here. 

This thread has existed multiple times, and is usually trolled/derailed into oblivion.

maybe this round of 'leads is the one we'll see results from, especially since they just got an entire new skillset.

Addama

Achimrst said:

Jacen said:

So, given that bleeding someone out from anywhere on the main continent is a possible strategy, you don't think a shaman would super slow prep, get fashions, bail to a guardstack, then bleed someone out?

Bleed is never 100% kill, there are many ways to get out of it and than you just wasted your fashions.

Sort of a moot point if it's close enough to 100% that you can reliably kill somebody with it not even being in the same general vicinity.

Achimrst

Addama said:

Achimrst said:

Jacen said:

So, given that bleeding someone out from anywhere on the main continent is a possible strategy, you don't think a shaman would super slow prep, get fashions, bail to a guardstack, then bleed someone out?

Bleed is never 100% kill, there are many ways to get out of it and than you just wasted your fashions.

Sort of a moot point if it's close enough to 100% that you can reliably kill somebody with it not even being in the same general vicinity.

Yet if you go off plane, Meropis, a boat, arena for a combat spar, they just wasted fashions and you can easily hire on them. Yet vodun is made that way, I wouldn't have any objections to it being area wide instead of continental I mean vodun throttle is.

Eigen

Back on track here...

Classleads 78 & 79 are interesting and helpful QoL changes for Serpent. Obviously #79 belongs in hypnosis, idk what Rip was smoking when he wrote his classleads cause they're pretty much all over the place. But I think the main ideas are pretty spot on.

Serps should be able to suggest off balance to take the place of illusions (which are scarcely used anymore due to server-side curing). And hypno initiates should be less obvious due to the lack of "trickery" left in the wake of illusions being useless. Right now if I snap someone in combat they'll just run and the fight is reset for me (but not for them if they're slow-prep or literally any class except apostate, bm, priest).

Also all serps should get level 3 dirks to start with, starting with me, but that's a no brainer

Atalkez

Eigen said:

Back on track here...

Classleads 78 & 79 are interesting and helpful QoL changes for Serpent. Obviously #79 belongs in hypnosis, idk what Rip was smoking when he wrote his classleads cause they're pretty much all over the place. But I think the main ideas are pretty spot on.

Serps should be able to suggest off balance to take the place of illusions (which are scarcely used anymore due to server-side curing). And hypno initiates should be less obvious due to the lack of "trickery" left in the wake of illusions being useless. Right now if I snap someone in combat they'll just run and the fight is reset for me (but not for them if they're slow-prep or literally any class except apostate, bm, priest).

Also all serps should get level 3 dirks to start with, starting with me, but that's a no brainer

The changes to Illusion took some of the offensive firepower out of it, but if you think Illusions are a waste right now, you (and nearly every Serpent right now) aren't being inventive enough. There are plenty of uses for them now as they work.

Ernam

The serpent buffs directly before and after the implementation of server curing made serpent far more powerful than it ever was, not to mention, they didn't actually "lose" illusions.  They are still functionally very powerful, and in fact, still work exactly the same against the many people who still use client curing.

On on another note entirely, the hypnosis suggestion put forth has already been considered numerous times and declined due to the fact that it is already carefully balanced and extremely powerful as is.

From a theory perspective, it would change almost nothing anyways.  If hypnosis took zero seconds or took ten minutes, lock attempts would still be identical.  The only difference would be the amount of time an opponent has to prep prior to/between lock attempts.  Since serpent has amazing momentum, I personally think the 6-8 seconds of hypnosis require per lock attempt is perfectly fair.

Addama

Achimrst said:

Addama said:

Achimrst said:

Jacen said:

So, given that bleeding someone out from anywhere on the main continent is a possible strategy, you don't think a shaman would super slow prep, get fashions, bail to a guardstack, then bleed someone out?

Bleed is never 100% kill, there are many ways to get out of it and than you just wasted your fashions.

Sort of a moot point if it's close enough to 100% that you can reliably kill somebody with it not even being in the same general vicinity.

Yet if you go off plane, Meropis, a boat, arena for a combat spar, they just wasted fashions and you can easily hire on them. Yet vodun is made that way, I wouldn't have any objections to it being area wide instead of continental I mean vodun throttle is.

You say this like there's some other skillset that enables you to kill people that are on a different plane.

Plus, pretending like a skill is balanced because it doesn't work against people on a different plane is kind of silly, though at this point, I'm starting to think that's what you're going for.

Eigen

Atalkez said:

The changes to Illusion took some of the offensive firepower out of it, but if you think Illusions are a waste right now, you (and nearly every Serpent right now) aren't being inventive enough. There are plenty of uses for them now as they work.

There's plenty of defensive ways to utilize illusions, sure. But illusions were primarily used for offense, and as a consequence are scarcely-used now

You are right that we can use illusions for defensive purposes. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be able to suggest off balance, does it? When we're on the offense it would be a waste of time and eq when it could better be used maintaining momentum and prepping for a lock. Essentially, Serpent combat is no longer live-and-die by illusions like it used to be. Not too long ago we had the choice of being inventive with illusions if we didn't want to buy artefacts.

Now we see that offensive illusions are largely ineffective. That's all. Flexible hypno triggering is a good QoL change. 

Jarrod

Not really worth discussing Serpent classleads as they don't fall under the purview of the focused classlead round so they won't result in anything.

One thing I would like to see is a change to whichever the Alch phial is that reduces max health. It's fine as-is in terms of effect, but the recovery time on it is a bit ridiculous. The kind of thing I'd like to see instead of 1m tick up and 1m tick down, no variation would be:

If you avoid a tick of the phial, you recover one tick of health (current functionality) but also begin recovering at a rate of one tick per 15 seconds. The end result would be a recovery rate on par with most other classes from a full stack, about three minutes.

Example:

0:00 - phial tick that puts you to 50% health
1:00 - avoided phial tick via held breath/movement, 55% health
1:15 - 60%
1:30 - 65%
1:45 - 70%
2:00 - oops, took a tick, 65% health

Timing could be worked on to ensure it still has an impact, maybe increase the tick down to 10%, something needs to be done because 10  minutes after an extended fight is a ridiculously long time to have to wait to be 'recovered' from something.

Eigen

Jarrod said:

Not really worth discussing Serpent classleads as they don't fall under the purview of the focused classlead round so they won't result in anything.

Yeah good point

Addama

I think I said as much in the OP, focus on the classes under the focused classleads and we'll be fine.

Shaman is included in there so that's going to be relevant where Serpent isn't.

Ernam

Lets talk about Knights XD