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Comments
such decay at a rate of minutes basically mean Shaman/Jester would get destroyed by momentum classes.
we can all agree would be pretty dumb.
I don't follow your logic
Best solutions: delay for travel completion, OR no traveling to a puppet within 15 seconds of fashioning another target (You are too focused on a puppet of X to consider doing that to Y.)
The first step keeps it as balanced as earrings are. The second could conflict with using puppets on multiple enemies if all abilities are affected. So maybe just different areas. OR make out of area travel cost twice as much. That way you lose fashions traveling back and forth.
Jester/Shaman are unique in that this is not possible (Maligus is an interesting attempt to bring fashioning for Shaman more in line with limb prep, but definitely needs number tweaks and to be more consistent. Jester currently have no such toy and need it before their prep would be in line). While fashioning, they are not putting any real pressure on their opponent.
Furthermore, their prep is required for one of their full skillsets, whereas the prep required for limb damage classes only allow access to certain ability within their skills. As such until Maligus's kinks are worked out, and Jester get a fancy toy of their own vodun/puppetry prep is not comparable with limb prep, and therefore cannot be brought in line with limb prep in a way that will be properly balanced.
As for my momentum class comment, again currently you're talking about essentially making vodun/puppetry unusable against momentum classes, as if they fail to get their momentum going, won't have any real reason to stick around when they can instead get the fashions reset by sitting in guards for a small amount of time (as opposed to currently, where they have to sit in guards for a rather large amount of time which at the very least feels punishing)
I think a key trait of what Jarrod, Jovolo, myself, and others are suggesting is that it addresses both, without significantly impacting "actual" jester or shaman combat. If you make the decay only occur if you're not near the puppeted character, it would completely mitigate every concern you guys have listed.
Not to put words in anyone's mouths here, but some of these counter-arguments seem to be implying that slow prep should remain as a viable mechanic for dolls, and I think that's a debate all of its own, however it is a debate that the jury has pretty much already come back on.
1: why should it be possible at all?
2: what stops puppet/doll users using this mechanic to their benefit (you make it sound like a drawback), by going back to cities themselves (as they currently often do), intentionally voiding any other classes prep while maintaining their own?
Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files
Likewise, why are we trying to fix travel through decay in fashions? There are other ways to do this.
Big thank you to @Amranu for chiming in here and saying things in a much clearer way than I ever could.
Also I agree completely with @Austere:
Album of Bluef during her time in Achaea
in the end I rarely used puppetry except against serpents or people that would otherwise be too hard to hinder. You were more likely to die before getting your needed fashions. And if you do, that's a crap ton of bombs and hanged mans. Boring as hell. Jester needs a fashion boosting mechanism. something as simple as double fashions while roped, or +1 per broken limb, +5 fashions while slowed.
That way temporarily landing aeon can pay off.
Shamans sometimes need/want to leave the room because some of our vodun abilities work differently when used outside of the room. Unless those abilities are going to be altered (which opens a whole new can of worms) any decay rate based on movement is problematic.
This isn't meant to sound snarky (but I feel like it may come across that way so just wanted to clarify that it's not intended that way):
Does spinning vibes require you to sit down, making yourself basically open to having your throat slit and head lopped off? Communing currently does.
Album of Bluef during her time in Achaea
Even if this were to happen, there's no need for Shamans or Jesters to be provided with compensation. They're already both very powerful classes sans the hour long decay time on their prep, and the mechanic of fashion-and-run being a viable tactical option just needs to go, because employed effectively it's totally unplayable as the opposition of the fashioner. That isn't a well designed mechanic, and you don't need anything in return.
It's hard to say goodbye to easy-mode, but sometimes it's a necessary step towards the greater good.
tl;dr
Either make dolls reset in 5-6 minutes of no fashioning, not gradually ticking down from the moment they leave.
Or make binding maligus trigger a timer that resets the doll similar to above.
1) Shaman and Jester are both already momentum classes. Both classes can work pretty much exclusively from their 3rd skillset and achieve a lock on a significant amount of people. Vodun for Shamans is only necessary if you need hinder. Puppetry for Jester is never truly necessary unless you're fighting evade, more or less. If you're fashioning among your other attacks, you're adding slow prep to a momentum class that doesn't need it.
2) If they run for X time they reset all my momentum! - This is not a valid argument. If the other person gets away from you and runs, and they have no intention of continuing the fight for a period of time, you should lose all your progress on that fight. Every class deals with this. It's called the escapability of combat. In every 1v1 situation if you're not actively hindering your opponent from running, they can at any time decide they're done with that fight and go home to guards. They lose all progress against their opponent and clear all progress against them, this is how Achaean combat is designed.
3) Balancing Vodun/Puppetry strength over time by adding decaying fashions is not the last classlead those skills would ever receive. Right now they aren't necessary because they are very badly designed skills in the current combat scene. They do not fit with optimal combat strategies for either class, and are generally only useful for unstoppable kills or grief after the fact. Putting in doll decay is the first step to making these skills fit in with their classes as momentum classes, which they are designed to be (Recent design decisions clearly indicate this). Further changes can be things like less tedious fashion generation (like an improved Maligus) to support more fluid doll use in combat.
Buffs to Shaman/Jester are currently unjustifiable due to the strength available in the near-infinite slow-prep of their 3rd skills. The fact that top combatants don't use these skills at all on their own speaks to the strength of the classes as a whole, but as long as that untapped (because it's exceptionally boring) potential in that 3rd skill is there why should they get any positive change at all?
Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."
Seems like this one has been covered at this point, and there are a lot of other interesting classleads to talk about
Anyways, main point of what I'm getting at: Vodun/Puppetry could certainly use a refreshing/update to bring it in line with other class abilities. Further, it has some awesome flavor and I love the concept, and I think there are ways to make it more fun for everyone involved. Both puppeteer and opponent. We just need to sit and work it out together, not argue whether or not it needs to be fixed, etc.
I think this generation of players is kind of lazy and bank on a preconfigured curing setup and then basically wallop their heads against the keyboard. I can think of multiple ways to escape something, albeit not the ideal scenario where you just grind the opponent into the dirt mercilessly.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
Case in point: if I have about 57 fashions, I WILL put you in a slow lock and there is almost nothing that will save you. <br>
Which means if you see my puppet hit 50 fashions and its eyes fly open. You can run and hide in your city/ship until the fashions go away. Problematic if you have, say, a contract as a jester Mark or contract on you as a jester.
<br><br>
So a few rounds ago I suggested splitting fashion and truefashion into two abilities. FASHION would add 2 temporary fashions, while TRUEFASHION would add 1 "permanent" fashion. And either way a puppet would reset to 15 fashions instead of 1.
they wouldn't be truly permanent, just decay much later.
I'm not sure the change there needs to be instantaneous (in terms of shaman communion) but there does need to be something altered because right now you have to get to a safe space to sit down so you can commune uninterrupted because the bindings for day-to-day hunting, etc. are very different from those used for PvP. When it first came out, I showed a few people how it works and they immediately said, "Oh...I'm so abusing that." Anyway, I think there are some classleads up about this and spiritwalk (also needs some fixing) already, so yay!
Album of Bluef during her time in Achaea
The tail end of the fight:
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/604dc789
10minutes after the first fight ended
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/31fece99
Still say the doll needs to be destroyed on death. Anyone who thinks this is "working" is out of their mind.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
I agree that certain things shouldn't be command-able like that, although Maligus is made to work that way too, so it's a double edged sword. Not really the shamans fault for using their abilities as intended, but it was rather douchey if you ask me. The guy has a doll of you, hire and get him killed, that destroys the doll! You can travel off plane or to a ship or into the arena even to avoid things like that. I have had people do that before too. Although through commanding you, Vrass didn't even need a full doll to do that, just 25 fashions. She probably still has at least 80 more too as it looked like she had a full doll of you :P
I have never said an hour wasn't too long, I think the only reason a doll lasts after a person dies is because of starbursting and things like that, idk really it's not like I personally can think of a reason we would need a doll after we kill someone with it. Other than it's an actual physical object.
I have read through the stuff written since I last read in here and just wanted to say.
@Jarrod I use vodun to literally kill people all the time
I wonder of some kind of compromise in which certain abilities in Vodun could be looked at and made similar to how throttle was changed? Maybe making less fashions needed for stuff in general and change most of the skills to area? idk what a true solution would be probably only Tecton or Makarios would really know that.
I wonder if a solution could be in going to a city in the first place, perhaps if a vodun/puppetry user is in a city their dolls decay to a lower amount of fashions faster?
Since standing on guards seems to be the issue here.
Yes.
Ritual requirements: Performing shaman and victim must both be present in same room. Be mutual allies (or not). Neither moves for given amount of time (10/20/30/something seconds).
Result: 1) No effect if the ritual is stopped or fails to complete. 2) All steps are completed but the ritual fails, in which case some fashions are lost. 3) All steps are completed, the ritual succeeds, in which case major amount of fashions are lost or the doll itself is destroyed (whichever suits the game). 4) In all above cases the owner of doll is alerted of the ritual.
Side effects... Drain both parties for considerable mana and willpower.
If this were added fashions could become permanent again. Cool idea