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Comments
My experience has been that against plenty of people it doesn't really matter whether I have 12 strength or 21, they will die to pure doubleslash damage in a reasonably short amount of time. Admittedly I'm not just flailing blindly and there's at least some sense of strategy behind my venom choices (a large part of which serves to maximise the damage I'm dealing), but you could essentially distill that down into some mass envenoming aliases and then lean on doubleslash and achieve much the same results. Plenty of people just plain suck, I'm not sure that should be considered an indictment of Achaea's business model.
Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files
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One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important
I tested this for you. I'm level 104, level 2 sip, level 2 bracelets, level 1 belt, level 1 regen ring, SoA, fullplate, putrefaction, and a level 2 torso break set up. I was also on sip and moss balance for the bbt, and my SoA caught one of the break hfps. Amaru was 17 strength (after borrowing my level 2 gauntlets). I could of course have vigour'd, but I was asked to test without any active abilities. Couldn't test with enfeeble as Amaru doesn't have it, and he didn't even have trans tekura.
Obviously, that would let you survive it by preparing you mentally for being burst down.
Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/d1e10c35
He was able to cure the level 2 torso break, knocking it down to level 1 broken torso, before the BBTs.
With 22str, a JPK double leg break, enfeeble, 2x BBTs with level 1 torso break, he walked away with 3,000 health. Again, I was able to get the kill with a gem of negation (which I thoroughly hate having to use). Note that every single attack in the kill sequence is queued, and that despite significant pre-damage, he was on both sip and moss balance, due to regen and how little damage the tekura prep combos do against apostate.
(digging through my forum history to find the other log(s)).
While I'm sure putrefaction and regen mitigate damage, I think this skill right here probably has more effect than anything else in terms of him tanking that.
Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."
Oh absolutely - there is no doubt. However it is pure and simple damage mitigiation, which stacks with damage reduction (damage done both before and during numb is still reduced by armor, putrefaction, etc.). There's also nothing you can do to stop it.
Infernals don't have this, but they have weathering and fullplate instead, and can vigour off pre-damage before the leg break as well.
[also worth mentioning that the level 2 break wouldn't have changed anything, he walked away with far more health than the BBTs would have done with the small increase in damage between level 1 and 2 torso breaks]
I do see what you're saying, but Numb is damage mitigation, and my whole point is that a handful of classes have way too much. Monk's numb can be annoying, but it's nowhere near the problem that Apathy is, because monks aren't stacking the damage reduction of Apathy with another 40%+ reduction from class defenses/armor.
Considering that Apathy quite literally "reduces damage taken by 40%"(?) (which stacks, undiminished, with any other reductions), I don't see how you can say it has nothing to do with my assertions. It is exactly what I'm asserting, it just requires the use of an (unstoppable) ability during a kill sequence, where Infernal, Runewarden, and Dragon don't (but have much higher static reduction).
(?) unsure of exact figure, don't have it written down.
Claims, in order:
1) 21-23str is not enough
2) Apostates, Infernals, Dragons capable of tanking a double leg break, kai enfeeble, 2x torso BBT
3) They don't need to touch their keyboard
4) An Infernal came out of the combo with more health than they started with
When you were called a liar based on these claims, you provided no evidence. Cooper provided an example of a less offensively artied player without even using the full combo you described which killed an artied Infernal. No JPK double-break, no enfeeble, still a kill. On an Infernal, the class you claimed would leave a stronger combo at higher health than they started.
As supporting evidence you provided a log that, relative to the claims above:
1) You did have 22 strength
2) He didn't tank the combo (improper Enfeeble use means its damage did not register for the purposes of the combo)
3) He used his keyboard to use one of the best active defensive skills in the game for damage
4) An Apostate came out with significantly less health than he started with
This is the problem people have with your 'facts'. You make a ludicrous claim regarding a facet of PK and multiple experienced fighters call you out on it. You vehemently deny any claims of lying and state things like:
It is not mathematical fact. Facts require supporting evidence, the only examples of which from yourself or others disproves your initial claim. If you had never made such an exaggerated claim to support your initial point, nobody would have had a problem with it. If you had said, "I think these classes are too tanky, Apathy especially puts Apostate over the line defensively, he's an example where I may not have executed the sequence perfectly, but I don't believe it would have mattered. If you'd like to test yourself please do." People would have discussed it with you, tried it, and come back with their own evidence. Instead you claim logs that were provided at some indistinct time in the past as your supporting evidence and then don't produce them.
Do yourself and everyone a favor and don't state things you can't support as facts. It doesn't help anyone and your experience may have problems in execution that cause problems more than other things (like Enfeeble timing). You have opinions on PK balance. State them as such and people will be significantly more likely to discuss changes with you.
Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."
EDIT: Page 407 of Combat Logs. Also, now that I looked over that log, I didn't even have a L1 break. I applied to torso out of room, if that's the time when you mention that I had a large amount of health after the numb. If you double break me with torso damage, I numbed, and then you got two L1 torso BBT's with a Choke off, I would probably die, even past numb. Which is why if you double broke me and I wasn't sure of my torso damage, I would vigour the first BBT, and numb the second BBT, since I can definitely numb off one torso BBT and a choke.
I'm just going to stop, once again. If the only goal is to prove that I'm a liar, or picking apart tiny parts of a much bigger claim, then there's no point in even making one.
Just to be 100% clear, I was stating that damage reduction is too high for several classes, which included apostate. I made the mistake of referencing an extreme example simply to illustrate the point, but this opened myself up to people who would rather argue with the example, or argue against my integrity, instead of arguing the actual question I asked, which was:
Do knights, dragons, apostates, actually need the extremely high amount of damage reduction they currently have, in light of the significant upgrades they've experienced, and the downgrades that damage output has experienced?
As I clearly stated, I'll do what I can to come up with some actual numbers/logs when I have the time and opportunity to find people to help me with it (as I don't have an infernal or a monk character, this isn't something I can do literally overnight, as you seem to be demanding).
I will agree with you that it's an opinion, however it's an educated opinion, since I have a large amount (probably larger than all but a handful of players in the game) with dragon, infernal, monk, apostate, and runewarden combat.
edit: @Xer - not going to argue over this any more, if you're going to argue over the validity of the log, I'll just generate new ones with people willing to vouch for their authenticity (can't believe this is really necessary...).
Chivalry
Pretty much how I felt.