Why being a druid is awesome.

Blujixapug

Vesios said:

And aren't Druids supposed to be sort of scary in their groves?

They used to be godlike in groves. Grove totems to prep someone for a near-instant incinerate, or transfix them so you could pound away. Cage and hinder to stop anyone leaving. Thorns passively dealing damage along with your golem and bees. Entangle passively entangling. Barrier and hypercure giving you godlike defense. Vigour for active heal. Eject and elevate, which worked in almost any state of affliction, to get rid of anyone getting a leg up on you. Instant self-rezz in the unlikely scenario that you died.

But they were utterly useless anywhere else. So the obvious strategy was "don't fight one in their grove". A druid couldn't even show up to fights elsewhere, their skillset was so ill-equipped to compete. All a druid could really do was pout and say, "Well I'd win if this were in my grove." This contributed to their organisational mindset: between the de facto encouragement to only participate in fights that intruded into their territory, and groves being so strong offensively and defensively that they never had to learn much about PK tactics or curing setups, they never developed any PK culture, and that was left to the Fianna/Oakstone/Sentinels/Eleusis/Cortens.

Druids had their power shifted around so groves are unimpressive for combat now (which is regrettable), but Imbued abilities contribute much more to out-of-forest PK. And they gained Hydra morph. Imbued abilities are mostly utility though, and don't diversify their offensive options that much, so I am interested to see what they get from the new third skill.

Theris

I have mixed feelings about the change that moved a lot of significant groves abilities (e.g., vigour, panacea, barrier) to the quarterstaff. On the one hand, it made druids and sylvans much more mobile and effective outside of their groves, but on the other hand, now fighting in the grove is not nearly as badass as it once was. I haven't fought as a sylvan since that change, but it seems like, while groves still provide a lot of utility for group combat (like telepathy screens, concealment, resurrections, summoning, and gates), the staff is all you really need in solo combat.

Edit: Like I said, though, I haven't tried combat as a sylvan since those changes--someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Addama

I don't envy anybody who has to fight in one room unless they want to lose 90% of their combat effectiveness.

Vesios

Blujixapug said:

Druids had their power shifted around so groves are unimpressive for combat now (which is regrettable), but Imbued abilities contribute much more to out-of-forest PK. And they gained Hydra morph. Imbued abilities are mostly utility though, and don't diversify their offensive options that much, so I am interested to see what they get from the new third skill.

Something I continuously run into every time I think about the third skill is the problem of originality. To me, at least, it seems as if Druids don't have any unique skills not shared with the other forestal classes outside of, what, Hydra and Harmony?  Any time I think of a possible third skill that would be really cool to get, something like this happens:

• It would be really cool if in, like, an act of the ultimate bond with Nature, Druids could fuse with their golems like iron man suits Viridians 
• What about improved quarterstaff stuff, more offensive things Sentinels are probably getting a skill focused on their spears and tridents, and "offensive staff" sounds too much like staffstrike 
• Maybe a focus on their bond with the earth? Something like earthbending from the Avatar series would be REALLY SWEET Anything remotely "nature magic" is Sylvan territory  
• Then maybe that sunlight skill? Sunlight whips and stuff Sounds too much like it would infringe on Aurora's domain 
• Golems as pets, to help fight while using metamorphosis Artificing 
• Calling Nature's creatures for aid Woodlore 

I truthfully don't know how to see this in the grand scheme of things. Is it me just lacking originality? Is it due to there being three forestal classes when all other factions only have one or two? I don't know. I just hope admin does.

Sarathai

Vesios said:

• What about improved quarterstaff stuff, more offensive things Sentinels are probably getting a skill focused on their spears and tridents, and "offensive staff" sounds too much like staffstrike 

That and needing the Quarterstaff ability in Groves to use a skillset would probably be a bit questionable. Quarterstaff already has a whole pile of utility (Flail, Harmony, Vigour, Wildgrowth, Panacea, Swing, Sharpening if you need to, Whirl, Flash, Tap, Portability, Fertility, Barrier, Lightning, Gate over a local area, Dampening, Snowstorm... and now that I think about it, that's a lot of abilities that can be keyed off a staff). I don't think we need to add more.

Seth

Theris said:

I have mixed feelings about the change that moved a lot of significant groves abilities (e.g., vigour, panacea, barrier) to the quarterstaff. On the one hand, it made druids and sylvans much more mobile and effective outside of their groves, but on the other hand, now fighting in the grove is not nearly as badass as it once was. I haven't fought as a sylvan since that change, but it seems like, while groves still provide a lot of utility for group combat (like telepathy screens, concealment, resurrections, summoning, and gates), the staff is all you really need in solo combat.

Edit: Like I said, though, I haven't tried combat as a sylvan since those changes--someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

While it's true that groves are less important, the change is for the best. Not many people were lining up to fight someone in their Groves anyways and it gives us a chance to be effective outside of our groves. Plus Sylvans have heartseed which is a real game changer if used correctly.

Nim

Vesios said:

Is it due to there being three forestal classes when all other factions only have zero to two? I don't know. I just hope admin does.

Fixed. I'm not bitter.

(yes i am)

Iocun

Addama said:

I don't envy anybody who has to fight in one room unless they want to lose 90% of their combat effectiveness.

I lose 90% of my combat effectiveness when I'm not in a room with Cyrenian guards.

Addama

While I think fixed-room effects (like Vibes/Harmonics/Runes/Rites) are interesting and add a layer to combat, what makes these different from Groves is that they can be moved pretty easily, or even follow you around.  They limit mobility to an extent, only to the extent that it gives opponents a reason to be evasive, but not to the extent that being evasive absolutely renders them harmless.

Groves are uniquely bad because they can only be done in a forested room.  A lot of areas just don't have that.  I know it makes RP sense that Forestals would be powerful in the forest and not necessarily in the desert, but it doesn't make combat balance sense.  Other room-wide abilities are limited by room type, but they're far more inclusive (I can't normally sketch runes in a flooded room, but I can buy an artefact allowing me to do so).  Groves are problematically exclusive.  So that needs to change, and I'm not sure how crazy Forestals are about popping Groves in the desert, underwater, or in a city.

My (likely terrible) idea is to give Groves portability akin to Totems.  In other words, you carry a mini-Grove with you that can be (implanted?) and grants Grove effects for a limited time, say, 30 seconds.  Perhaps you're only allowed to choose from a reduced selection of Grove abilities that can be active at once compared to being in your actual Grove.  You could use it in any room (maybe some exceptions, but far fewer than "only forest") and the balance on implanting would be similar to that of propping a Totem.

Vesios

EDIT: Apparently mobile hates paragraph breaks. Sorry for the wall of text. //// Portability is already a thing. It's the final ability in Groves and let's you dissolve your quarterstaff in order to teleport your grove to where you're standing, at the cost of some of your abilities. You can't bring your golem along for the ride, for example. ///// The problem here is that portability can (obviously) only be used on forest and jungle rooms, and can't be used on an existing grove. ///// Believe it or not, a lot of Druids don't get why we're limited to forests either. Nature isn't limited to the forests - this is seen in abilities such as harmony, which features locations such as the desert, mountains and oceans. ///// The term "grove" does not equal "forests", either. A grove is simply an area in which a Druid makes his home. Nothing says it has to be limited to forests or jungles, that's just how it evolved mechanically, due to things such as grove return and flow being utterly, obnoxiously overpowered if they were able to be used everywhere. ///// My solution to that would be matching the environments - if your grove was in the mountains, for example, you would only be able to flow to people in the mountains or port your grove to mountainous locations. ///// I know this might be a disliked opinion, but I would also be all for Groves becoming the tertiary skill, much in the same way Chivalry and Weaponmastery were switched for Knights. The new skill could be put in the secondary slot and Groves could be unlocked upon embracing, due to the fact that Groves is almost purely utility and defensive bonuses.

Addama

Vesios said:

EDIT: Apparently mobile hates paragraph breaks. Sorry for the wall of text. //// Portability is already a thing. It's the final ability in Groves and let's you dissolve your quarterstaff in order to teleport your grove to where you're standing, at the cost of some of your abilities. You can't bring your golem along for the ride, for example. ///// The problem here is that portability can (obviously) only be used on forest and jungle rooms, and can't be used on an existing grove. ///// Believe it or not, a lot of Druids don't get why we're limited to forests either. Nature isn't limited to the forests - this is seen in abilities such as harmony, which features locations such as the desert, mountains and oceans. ///// The term "grove" does not equal "forests", either. A grove is simply an area in which a Druid makes his home. Nothing says it has to be limited to forests or jungles, that's just how it evolved mechanically, due to things such as grove return and flow being utterly, obnoxiously overpowered if they were able to be used everywhere. ///// My solution to that would be matching the environments - if your grove was in the mountains, for example, you would only be able to flow to people in the mountains or port your grove to mountainous locations. ///// I know this might be a disliked opinion, but I would also be all for Groves becoming the tertiary skill, much in the same way Chivalry and Weaponmastery were switched for Knights. The new skill could be put in the secondary slot and Groves could be unlocked upon embracing, due to the fact that Groves is almost purely utility and defensive bonuses.

We agree, then, that Portability in its current incarnation sucks because it can only be used in a Forested room, which makes it pretty easy for attackers to dictate a fight where you will be least effective.

Limiting this to only mountain rooms or only grassland rooms would not really fix anything, it would just mean I have to bother to identify where your actual Grove is located and then never fight you in any of those rooms.

Jakiro

@Vesios‌ can't you GROVE CALL your golem after porting? It's been a long time since I was druid so forgive me if I'm wrong.

Melodie

Edit: Disregard, I need to read more fully.

Suffice to say, there are a lot of jungle rooms in Achaea, especially in Meropis.

Vesios

@Jakiro you can't, unfortunately. Both your golem and your hive are limited to your main grove, though obviously you can have the swarm follow you wherever you please. It's one of the (necessary) drawbacks of porting. You also can't use:

• Channel
• Sever
• Sharing
• Forestbinding

Here's a screencap of the AB file.

Portability's main use is in its utility. You don't use it so much for combat but it can be used in tandem with most of your other grove abilities to make your life much easier. If you're all the way in the Istar Jungle, for example, you can port your grove and then simply Isolation back to the mainland - bonus points if one of the Glade's exits is your home forest. If an ally's soul is in a forest, you can find them, port your grove to them and then resurrect them on the spot. Running low on endurance, aaaaaall the way down in Meropis? Head to the jungle, port your grove, morph sloth and grove rain. If you die and there's a forest or jungle around, you can travel back and use your ported grove as a self-rez point. Convenient stuff like that.

You probably already know all this, but I figure it could be a refresher and a small info dump for others if they want to discuss it more.

Yae

I haven't checked recently (since I no longer summon my golem), but Grove Calling can call your golem to an allied grove. I still think it's the case.

Sharing allows many of the utilities we can only do in our grove to be used in an ally's grove. I just prefer not to do it since it also calls my herd of animals, most of which I prefer not to take to combat. It's different for every druid, but it's not really too great if you summon your non-resetting pet to your grove.

You can use Forestbinding in an allied grove, as well as Channel (and various other things). So if you have friends in other forests, you're fairly well off there as well.

Hive stays the same place though, but their main combat function is to summon bees, which you can do from afar.

Vesios

Yae said:

I haven't checked recently (since I no longer summon my golem), but Grove Calling can call your golem to an allied grove. I still think it's the case.

Sharing allows many of the utilities we can only do in our grove to be used in an ally's grove. I just prefer not to do it since it also calls my herd of animals, most of which I prefer not to take to combat. It's different for every druid, but it's not really too great if you summon your non-resetting pet to your grove.

You can use Forestbinding in an allied grove, as well as Channel (and various other things). So if you have friends in other forests, you're fairly well off there as well.

Hive stays the same place though, but their main combat function is to summon bees, which you can do from afar.

Allied grove =/= your own ported grove.

Sarathai

Vesios said:

If you're all the way in the Istar Jungle, for example, you can port your grove and then simply Isolation back to the mainland - bonus points if one of the Glade's exits is your home forest.

I kind of wish Isolation had more exits. Not necessarily to every forest, but to a couple of extras that are further away than the mainland (Ulangi would be nice, actually, or Rheodad).

Vesios

Sarathai said:

Vesios said:

If you're all the way in the Istar Jungle, for example, you can port your grove and then simply Isolation back to the mainland - bonus points if one of the Glade's exits is your home forest.

I kind of wish Isolation had more exits. Not necessarily to every forest, but to a couple of extras that are further away than the mainland (Ulangi would be nice, actually, or Rheodad).

SW and SE are unused if I recall correctly, and one of them should be the Aureliana.

seriously wtf, you have the Shamtotas on east for god's sake... I mean not that I'm complaining, I love being able to type "east" and magically appear in my home forest, but still.

Sarathai

Vesios said:

Sarathai said:

Vesios said:

If you're all the way in the Istar Jungle, for example, you can port your grove and then simply Isolation back to the mainland - bonus points if one of the Glade's exits is your home forest.

I kind of wish Isolation had more exits. Not necessarily to every forest, but to a couple of extras that are further away than the mainland (Ulangi would be nice, actually, or Rheodad).

SW and SE are unused if I recall correctly, and one of them should be the Aureliana.

seriously wtf, you have the Shamtotas on east for god's sake... I mean not that I'm complaining, I love being able to type "east" and magically appear in my home forest, but still.

Southeast, Southwest, Up, Down and In/Out are all technically unused, but yes.

Shamtotas have been on the East exit I think since the start. Northreach and the Black Forest were added later under Maya's watch. As much as I'd like the Aureliana to be an exit, though, there are already exits to the Black and Western Ithmia that leave you about ten rooms away from it at the most, and all three of those forests are quite central.

And you can always just walk out into any forest room on the main continent and Return, hence my sort of wanting exits to forests that are further away. If nothing else, it'd cut down on travel time when running up to Rheodad to put out the fire while you're on fire and being chased around by Theron. On fire.