Weaponmastery Specs Discussion

Antonius

Momentum speeds up Fracture balance recovery, and is used for Expend and Assault. As far as I know it's not supposed to speed up doublewhirl.

Aedin

I knew about the expend and assault and but didn't notice fracture I'll check it out when I get back home

Borran

Are artefact weapon prices going to be adjusted,  or are certain specialisations just going to be cheaper to buy lvl 3 arties for?

Arador

I think the message is misleading, it does not increase speed. 

Makarios

Right, we didn't want to make it a "hit them so you hit them even harder" kind of deal, so the balances remain static.

Exactly how long it takes you to prep someone with dual cutting will vary on their health and how well they parry/how well you bypass it with the new nausea interaction. Dsl does now have an inate limb damage bonus however. I was pretty happy with the time it takes during testing, but we're definitely keeping an eye on that.

Borran

RIP necromancy frenzy.

Dalran

Rispok said:

Suladan said:

Originally put this in the main "Big Change - Combat" thread, but moved over as it belongs a lot more here.

Did some testing on various Knight specialisations for bashing damage.

The alt I used has 12 str, I was using normal forged weapons and damage is accurate as testing was on my falcon.

Based on 7-SpeedStat/50 formula for weapon speed, results are as follows:

Dual blunt (Doublewhirl):
morning star76726          70 188 207 60             - 744 @ 2.86s = 260 dps
flail156936             137 164 164 59            - 1254 @ 3.72s = 337 dps

Two handed (Slaughter):
bastard sword348891     197 164 131 239         - 770 @ 4.38s = 175 dps
warhammer237876         182 151 146 239            - 788 @ 4.08s = 193 dps

Dual cutting (Doubleslash):
battleaxe236186         159 157 148 239            - 688 @ 4.04s = 170 dps
scimitar277033              52 164 230 60            - 408 @ 2.4s = 170 dps

Sword-and-Board (Combination rend smash):
broadsword33570         151 164 155 225            - 701 @ 3.9s = 179 dps
longsword136883         119 164 182 58            - 653 @ 3.36s = 194 dps


- updated to include recent (last half hour) increase in two hander damage.

Why did you use rend smash and not slice smash?

Also diff shield affects speed for SNB so a lot of different combinations there. Buckler/longsword I'm at around 1.9s slice/smash combo's.

Wessux

Arador said:

So a quad prep with dual cutting is still going to be close to a minute? 

Not gonna lie, the nausea bypass is pretty banging. It's a still gonna be really hard against a good serpent/alchemists/apostate that hinder, but it cuts our prep time to a third easily. But a minute to prep all four limbs is pretty accurate on the average person. 14 slash, so 7 dsl's at about 2 seconds. 14 seconds  per limb times 4 is about a minute. But as infernal you don't need all 4 limbs for some nasty setups and you're guaranteed a dsb if you go for.

Arador

Yea the bypass certainly helps a lot. Just strikes me as still on the slow side when Monks, Dragons, BM etc will do a quad prep in half that time. But fair enough, at least not in danger of running past reset time.

Addama

So the limb formula has changed a bit.  Does anybody know how the constant side of it has increased or decreased? 

Nakari

Kazu said:

I issued myself earlier to see if weaponry has an impact and here's the reply I got:

Greetings! In regard to issue 71367, the commands specific to Weaponmastery will all only be affected by Weaponmastery (and weapon statistics, so artefacts will be better). Regular commands, such as throwing them or commands such as slash/stab/bash will be determined by Weaponry!

Makarios said:

Nothing's changed there, other than the formula taking weaponmastery skill into account rather than chivalry.

these two answers confuse me, as they seem to contradict on if weaponry affects the speed of attacks used in weaponmastery. 

Vastar

It's been ages since Weaponry truly affected Knight stuff - it was changed to pull from whichever skill rank was greater, Chivalry or Weaponry, not both. Now it's Weaponry vs Weaponmastery, so the answer was a little off.

Antonius

@Vastar: Used to be 100% of the greater and 10% of the lesser skill rank, when did that change?

Antonius

Any chance we could gain the ability to view the AB files for abilities in specialisations we haven't selected? Was working briefly yesterday, I think, but may not have been intentional and isn't working now.

Wessux

Antonius said:

@Vastar: Used to be 100% of the greater and 10% of the lesser skill rank, when did that change?

This right here. This would account for my .1 loss of speed (Which is important). Did this change @Makarios‌? @Vastar made it sound as if it has. 

Style

Have not played in years, and this change is massive enough for me to be intrigue. Am considering whether or not to play again...

My recollection is that knight combat is just plain boring, once the opponent is artied up to a certain point, and have a good enough system. It just keeps 'resetting'. I.e. Either combatant can just slip out of the room for like a second, heal up, and the situation is again like the start of the fight.

And despite the theoretical multiple weapon types, there is practically only rapier. 

Question. Does any of the specialization change this? 2H seems to have potential, however with the ridiculous  balance, It seems that escaping is even easier for the opponent, thus as above?

And a though from years ago, If bleeding is tweaked so that it cannot be healed, except by time, and perhaps with a cooldown from last damage, perhaps it may radically change knight combat? i.e. Over time, somebody WILL die from plainly  getting hit.... Will theoretically add a new dimension to combat, and different weapon type can have a difference.

Addama

Style said:

Have not played in years, and this change is massive enough for me to be intrigue. Am considering whether or not to play again...

Yes!  Come back.  I can tell you that the changes (as well as the ability to switch between Specs freely for experimenting) have kept me entertained for hours.  The week before the changes, I played maybe a few hours, and the last three days I've been glued to the keyboard.

My recollection is that knight combat is just plain boring, once the opponent is artied up to a certain point, and have a good enough system. It just keeps 'resetting'. I.e. Either combatant can just slip out of the room for like a second, heal up, and the situation is again like the start of the fight.

That's more the case with Serpents and affliction classes.  Limb damage sticks for a lot longer than that, so an opponent has to literally run away from you for about three minutes to get rid of your progress.  In that case, just call it a win.

And despite the theoretical multiple weapon types, there is practically only rapier. 

Knights can't use rapiers anymore, so no.  The different specs all use entirely different weapons.

Question. Does any of the specialization change this? 2H seems to have potential, however with the ridiculous  balance, It seems that escaping is even easier for the opponent, thus as above?

Now (with the Isaz change) all Knights have some form of passive hindrance that prevents people from walking out of the room, or at least gives a high chance of preventing it.  So no, you can't leave at will anymore.  Unless you're a BM or a Serpent, but like, fuck them.

And a though from years ago, If bleeding is tweaked so that it cannot be healed, except by time, and perhaps with a cooldown from last damage, perhaps it may radically change knight combat? i.e. Over time, somebody WILL die from plainly  getting hit.... Will theoretically add a new dimension to combat, and different weapon type can have a difference.

Unfortunately, this would make classes that can dish out a lot of bleed damage very quickly (Shaman, Jester, Alchemist) totally overpowered.  There's a lot of dimensions to Knight combat now, so just try it out, then let us know what you think.

Kellonius

Style said:

Have not played in years, and this change is massive enough for me to be intrigue. Am considering whether or not to play again...

My recollection is that knight combat is just plain boring, once the opponent is artied up to a certain point, and have a good enough system. It just keeps 'resetting'. I.e. Either combatant can just slip out of the room for like a second, heal up, and the situation is again like the start of the fight.

And despite the theoretical multiple weapon types, there is practically only rapier. 

Question. Does any of the specialization change this? 2H seems to have potential, however with the ridiculous  balance, It seems that escaping is even easier for the opponent, thus as above?

And a though from years ago, If bleeding is tweaked so that it cannot be healed, except by time, and perhaps with a cooldown from last damage, perhaps it may radically change knight combat? i.e. Over time, somebody WILL die from plainly  getting hit.... Will theoretically add a new dimension to combat, and different weapon type can have a difference.

Holy crap welcome back dude

Wessux

Wessux said:

Antonius said:

@Vastar: Used to be 100% of the greater and 10% of the lesser skill rank, when did that change?

This right here. This would account for my .1 loss of speed (Which is important). Did this change @Makarios‌? @Vastar made it sound as if it has. 

Can this get answered? @Tecton‌ @Makarios‌

Edit: Not trying to rush an answer I just don't want this getting forgotten or missed.

Makarios

Its not changed, no. What Vastar meant was the best case wins. If you're trans weaponmastery and expert weaponry, you'll get the full bonus from weaponmastery and a small percentage bonus from weaponry. If you're trans weaponry and expert weaponmastery, you'll get the full bonus from weaponry and a small bonus from weaponmastery. If you're trans both you get the same bonus as you would have previously from being trans chivalry and trans weaponry.

Antonius

@Makarios: Are you guys happy with Knight bashing damage as it currently stands? Just wondering if it's worth testing each of the specs yet.

Makarios

On the fence, really. Its better, but might be too high now. Probably more stable.

Dual cutting is fine to test, the other three are a bit trickier to get right.

Mizik

With standardized weapon damage and speed, should just make it tiny base damage, mostly weapon damage, mild strength modifier. 

Addama

S&B is still quite slow.  Everything else I've tested seems fine.

Borran

Are knights going to be feasible combatants without arties? That was lways my favorite part about knight classes. Single trans, no arties, and you could fight at mid tier.

Addama

Borran said:

Are knights going to be feasible combatants without arties? That was lways my favorite part about knight classes. Single trans, no arties, and you could fight at mid tier.

I'm doing fine with just Mayan Gauntlets and class skills/weaponry/survival Trans.

Borran

Addama said:

Borran said:

Are knights going to be feasible combatants without arties? That was lways my favorite part about knight classes. Single trans, no arties, and you could fight at mid tier.

I'm doing fine with just Mayan Gauntlets and class skills/weaponry/survival Trans.

Are you SnB?

Antonius

I think any of the new specs should be solid without artefacts. I'd avoid dual cutting if you can't spring for artefact weapons, personally.

Addama

Borran said:

Addama said:

Borran said:

Are knights going to be feasible combatants without arties? That was lways my favorite part about knight classes. Single trans, no arties, and you could fight at mid tier.

I'm doing fine with just Mayan Gauntlets and class skills/weaponry/survival Trans.

Are you SnB?

I've made S&B and Dual Blunt work.  Two-Hander is kind of frustrating because my opponent can run away and reset my progress.  Antonius is right about Two Hander, if you can't spring for L3 Scimis you might as well go S&B, if you can then you get ~1.9 second balance which is fast enough for things like Epteth stacks.

Kellonius

Borran said:

Are knights going to be feasible combatants without arties? That was lways my favorite part about knight classes. Single trans, no arties, and you could fight at mid tier.

You can pull off the new dual blunt instakill fairly reliably without artefacts if you practice enough have all of the timing down. Though, there is something like a .4 second window for doing it, but its doable.