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Why is priest blessing effectiveness written into the game code?

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Answers

  • TibithaTibitha Member Posts: 742 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    ITT a lot of bold
  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaMember Posts: 5,048 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jovolo said:
    If you're going to touch upon Bloodsworn absolutism, then why does the Diaspora exist? Evidently the Bloodsworn do not operate on a practical application of absolutism because of the existence of the Diaspora in the first place. The clan is a pragmatic implementation to prevent an outcry of people losing their class skills thanks to the large amount of Devotionists in Cyrene. If you're going to even touch on these changes as a means of OOC combat balance, then you need to address the fact that Blessings are a factional advantage and should be treated as such. If it's all the same blessing, why would Devotionists obtain a greater benefit from them? Why can this argument not equally by applied to how actively and influentially you follow the Bloodsworn's teachings? Read Daeir's suggestion for a plausible canonical explanation.

    It exists because Aurora and Deucalion (and presumably the Garden) created it and told us "this is your new thing."

    I'm mostly avoiding this thread because reasons, but you guys are acting like Cyrene is demanding a lot. It's really not. This was something sanctioned by the game's administration, and no matter how you look at it, it exists and continues to exist. We didn't ask for it (or the deletion of the Lumeni). It came to us, and we were told "this is the way, we're giving you a chance, don't muck it up". Exempting my own personal circumstances, as far as I know, they haven't mucked it up.
               My wing tips waltz across naive
                     Wood floors they creak
                  Innocently down the stairs

                          Drag melody
    My percussive feet serve cobweb headaches as a
              Matching set of marching clocks
                The slumbering apparitions
              That they've come to wake up
    NimBadeTryleTrilliana
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,164 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited November 2014
    You took what I said out of context. The comment was in direct opposition to Tryle's argument referencing Targossas' absolutism. I didn't mention whether or not Cyrene deserves to have Devotion at all, as that's a completely different discussion. If anything, what you said just supports my own point on the sliding scale of "How Good are you?" as opposed to a binary definition.

    While we're on the subject though, I agree that this black-and-white assessment of Good and not Good should be taken and applied at large. The problem is, this would catapult us into the same issues the admin faced when Rho excommed all of Cyrene and that means a lot of unhappy customers for the admin to deal with. However, if we are going to apply such an outlook that you say already exists, Tryle, then there is no rational argument I can see to be made against providing Targossians with 100% of the benefit of Blessings and everyone else being left with 0%.
  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaMember Posts: 5,048 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jovolo said:
    You took what I said out of context. The comment was in direct opposition to Tryle's argument referencing Targossas' absolutism. I didn't mention whether or not Cyrene deserves to have Devotion at all, as that's a completely different discussion. If anything, what you said just supports my own point on the sliding scale of "How Good are you?" as opposed to a binary definition.

    While we're on the subject though, I agree that this black-and-white assessment of Good and not Good should be taken and applied at large. The problem is, this would catapult us into the same issues the admin faced when Rho excommed all of Cyrene and that means a lot of unhappy customers for the admin to deal with. However, if we are going to apply such an outlook that you say already exists, Tryle, then there is no rational argument I can see to be made against providing Targossians with 100% of the benefit of Blessings and everyone else being left with 0%.
    This never happened.
               My wing tips waltz across naive
                     Wood floors they creak
                  Innocently down the stairs

                          Drag melody
    My percussive feet serve cobweb headaches as a
              Matching set of marching clocks
                The slumbering apparitions
              That they've come to wake up
    JovoloTrillianaAmarillys
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,164 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It was hyperbole - I was using it to compare that previous situation to what would occur if it was deemed that Devotion would truly become Targossas' unique factional skill. We all know what an upset the threat caused by Rho's stance cause, which is what I was trying to bring attention to. It would be ten times worse.
    Ernam
  • TryleTryle Member Posts: 8
    edited November 2014
    Jovolo said:
    If you're going to touch upon Bloodsworn absolutism, then why does the Diaspora exist? Evidently the Bloodsworn do not operate on a practical application of absolutism because of the existence of the Diaspora in the first place. The clan is a pragmatic implementation to prevent an outcry of people losing their class skills thanks to the large amount of Devotionists in Cyrene. If you're going to even touch on these changes as a means of OOC combat balance, then you need to address the fact that Blessings are a factional advantage and should be treated as such. If it's all the same blessing, why would Devotionists obtain a greater benefit from them? Why can this argument not equally by applied to how actively and influentially you follow the Bloodsworn's teachings? Read Daeir's suggestion for a plausible canonical explanation.

    There are many questions listed in this block, so I'll arrange them like this:

    1)  "The Bloodsworn do not operate on a practical application of absolutism"
    I am not Deucalion or Aurora, so I cannot authentically say "why" they created the Diaspora, nor can any non-divine on this forum. However, assuming we accept your condition that the the Bloodsworn Gods made the Diaspora to OOC appease Cyrene Devotionists players, then we can say this: "The Bloodsworn Gods are absolute except when there are dangerously negative real-world consequences." The most prominent way equally blessing Eleusians and Targossians would create real-world problems would be by creating combat imbalances, which could still be worked out through a variety of means. However, these IRL impacts are in NO way comparable to alienating an entire playerbase, as was the risk in Cyrene. Furthermore, the Bloodsworn Gods/Triumverate have always been absolute regarding blessing conditions, and my ruleset supports that.

    2) "Blessings are a factional advantage and should be treated as such."
    I agree. That is why my original plan actively prevents factions enemied with Targossas from receiving any blessing effectiveness, with the added option to allow the Bloodsworn Gods to "cut off" Cyrene and Eleusis if their priorities change. If the Mhaldorians/Ashtani/Hashani unanimously feel that Cyrene and Eleusis are too game-breakingly powerful because of the 66% blessings, then the @Tecton team will examine it and potentially change it. However, this is not as likely to happen as damage reduction mechanics have been overhauled (from additively to multiplicatively) since the original Shallamese outcry. In the event that it is a problem still, the @Tecton team will take a look at it and possibly change it then. Still, in the lore, it is the same blessing, and should be treated as close to that as possible unless it infringes on game balance.

    3) "If it's all the same blessing, why would Devotionists obtain a greater benefit from them?"
    I don't understand your question very well, so I'm going to answer multiple interpretations of it:

    a) "Right now, Devotionists obtain a greater benefit from blessings than others do."
    In Targossas, Blademasters and Monks receive the same 66% blessing that a Paladin does. Blademasters and Monks are not Devotionists. In Cyrene, Paladins currently gain a whopping 0% blessing bonus, just like most other Cyrenians. In this interpretation, this question makes little sense: Paladins are the only other non-priest devotionist, and they get exactly the same blessing that a non-devotionist of their city would get. 

    b) "Why do Priests gain a larger benefit?"
    Game balance and IRE's credibility. Priests cough up the credits for their Healing skills and always having available blessings has been worked into their class design and overall balance. They can give them out to other people with a substantially weaker effect, making it a valuable support skill while retaining its class-specific value. Cutting a credit-buying, lesson-earning Priest's shields down to 66% when he has not violated any rules (remember: obeying the Diaspora gives him permission to live outside of Targossas) is 1) poor game design and 2) borderline fraud, as a person who pays credits, even for an "RP-centric" class, expects that they will get the value they deserve from their class so long as they follow the established rules.

    4) "Why can't this argument not be equally applied to how well you actively and influentially follow the Bloodsworn teachings?"
    It could. In fact, I wrote a whole post earlier about the Bloodsworn Gods should straight-up release a statement like, "The only true Devotionists live in Targossas, the rest of you are second-class chaplains," then tack on these restrictions as proof of that. However, they have never said anything like that. Instead, these changes resulted from an old combat imbalance outcry by Shallam that was later ported to Targossas. My plan holds truer to the existing Achaean canon, and it perpetuates blessing trends that have extended from Shallam into Targossas. If the Bloodsworn Gods release a statement that there are, in fact, multiple tiers of blessing aptitude, and that the old precedents of "Blessable" vs. Unblessable" have been overturned, by all means I will support that decision. Until then, the existing lore will favor my equality-laced interpretation over a "Good" caste system.

    5) Read Daeir's suggestion for a plausible canonical explanation.
    I don't need to invent new canon when everything I need is right here. Thanks though. :)

    JeslynSiduriShirszae
  • TryleTryle Member Posts: 8
    ^Agreed. I'm writing to Tecton. It might take months, it might get thrown out, but it's better than writing cases here (although not nearly as fun).

    Cheers yo.
  • ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited November 2014

    If I wanted, really badly, to play a sylvan...

    I'd join Eleusis.


    [edit]

    Houses have made everyone so damn spoiled.  I truly miss when organizational membership actually mattered beyond which CT (read: chat room) you decided to join.  (I don't see it this way, but this seems to be the attitude many people seem to have, albeit a bit exaggerated to convey the point).

    Seems like IRE has been really active in encouraging this "lets make every city identical other than the arbitrary contents of its HELP <city> file" attitude, but I despise it, and I desperately hope I'm not the only one.


    [edit again]

    Blessings are "balanced" for priests, and priests alone, with the slight exception that they're a minor part of "factional balance" that exists to account for the fact that Targossas and Mhaldor are, by definition, permanently at war.  Every other city has the factional benefit of being neutral at any time they choose.  I think this is fine.  I don't see people flipping shit about the Effigy of Victory, which is MASSIVELY more advantageous than blessings will ever be.

    And honestly, even if it wasn't fine... get the hell over it already.  It's an RPG, the factions do not have to be totally goddamn equal in every way.

    "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


          Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
        Shirszae
      1. AodfionnAodfionn Seattle, WAMember Posts: 1,218 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        How is this thread still alive. 
        Aurora says, "Are you drunk, Aodfionn?" 

        (The Targossian Academy): Halos says, "Go on! I need to feel the wind in my hair!"


        TrillianaAddamaTibitha
      2. AddamaAddama Member Posts: 947 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
        Amarillys said:
        Addama said:
        Amarillys said:
        Good people who just do not like to get involved.
        This is called being Neutral.  You can't be Good and not be involved in the Good vs. Evil conflict.  It's the conflict that defines them.
        Um, this is called being Good people and Neutral to world affairs. Neutral Good. Amazing how that works :stuck_out_tongue: 

        No, no, no, no, nein.

        Being good to people is not being Good.  Guess what?  Mhaldorians are good to one another.  They can even be good to Targossians.  It's common courtesy.  But common courtesy is not Good, it's just nice. 

        Being nauseatingly polite does not change the fact that you're a Neutral in a Neutral city with Neutral politics.  If you want to be capital-G Good, join the Diaspora or Targossas.
        ~Kresslack's obsession~
        AodfionnSiduri
      3. SilasSilas Member Posts: 2,546 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        There is no or. Just Targossas - I would not consider the Diaspora Good.

        Aodfionn
      4. JhuiJhui Member Posts: 1,958 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Aodfionn said:
        How is this thread still alive. 
        tried to derail it early on.  Didn't work.  These Cyrenians are relentless when it comes to stuff that doesn't matter.

        (attempt #2)
        image
        SyriTibitha
      5. VaehlVaehl Member Posts: 962 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        YOU WOULD HAVE TO RP FIRST JHUI.
        AddamaShirszaeValariaJhui
      6. AmarillysAmarillys Member Posts: 797 @ - Epic Achaean
        100%
        Devotion Users
        Targossians

        66%
        Allies of the Priest
        Excommed Priests
        Allies of Targossas

        0%
        Mhaldorians
        Ashtani
        Hashani
        AND ALL Apostates, Infernals, Occultists, and Shamans in ANY city.
        Enemies of Targossas
        Allies of Excommed Priests
        Excommed Paladins
        How I think it should be. And I'm taking in consideration a lot of what I've heard here. Obviously it's bottom's up, so if you're an ally of a priest but you're Mhaldorian, you still don't get a bonus. I think it keeps with the idea of being harsh but fair.



      7. AddamaAddama Member Posts: 947 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
        edited November 2014
        We know that you'd like 100% blessings, Amarillys.  You don't have to draw up a big table for us.

        E: And the point of the current system isn't "we want to be harsh but fair", the point is "if you are an active defender of Creation and Good, then you get the full benefit, otherwise you're just a polite dude in robes."
        ~Kresslack's obsession~
        Ernam
      8. AmarillysAmarillys Member Posts: 797 @ - Epic Achaean
        Addama said:
        We know that you'd like 100% blessings, Amarillys.  You don't have to draw up a big table for us.

        E: And the point of the current system isn't "we want to be harsh but fair", the point is "if you are an active defender of Creation and Good, then you get the full benefit, otherwise you're just a polite dude in robes."
        I've... never had a blessing in my character's life? And um... how would I get a blessing at %100 with what I said?

        And no, the point as stated by many people is 'Keeping the wrong people from jacking the factional ability through alts and nonsense'. So if you're just going to be unhelpful, go away.



      9. AddamaAddama Member Posts: 947 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
        Amarillys said:

        And no, the point as stated by many people is 'Keeping the wrong people from jacking the factional ability through alts and nonsense'.
        That's pretty much exactly what I said.  The right people get the factional benefits.  The sort-of-right people get some percentage of the buff, everybody else gets nothing. 

        You're suggesting we change things to make it more inclusive to people who don't actually have a mandate to defend Creation/Good, for example, all Paladins/Priests regardless of city affiliation. 
        ~Kresslack's obsession~
      10. AmarillysAmarillys Member Posts: 797 @ - Epic Achaean
        Addama said:
        Amarillys said:

        And no, the point as stated by many people is 'Keeping the wrong people from jacking the factional ability through alts and nonsense'.
        That's pretty much exactly what I said.  The right people get the factional benefits.  The sort-of-right people get some percentage of the buff, everybody else gets nothing. 

        You're suggesting we change things to make it more inclusive to people who don't actually have a mandate to defend Creation/Good, for example, all Paladins/Priests regardless of city affiliation. 
        All paladins/priests regardless of city affiliation unless they're Mhaldorian, Hashani, or Ashtani and unless they are excommed which Targossas has the say over, yes. I'm actually being much harsher in a lot of ways than the current rules are while still allowing for people outside of Targossas to receive some benefit. A benefit they can lose if they cross Targossas. A benefit they can lose if their friend crosses Targossas. I also bumped up how much Targossas gets. I actually think I came up with a pretty damn good compromise while giving Targossas all the power.

        One quick thing I want to add, I pointed out it's bottom's up, but I would argue that the priests just get the excommed penalty of 66% and not the enemied penalty. That'd be the one difference and that's just because... they already lose two skillsets on excomm, getting the third one nerfed is bad enough without losing it, too. No point and kicking the dead horse.



      11. BlujixapugBlujixapug Member Posts: 1,833 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Aodfionn said:
        How is this thread still alive. 
        I dropped the mike. I dropped all your mikes. We done here.

        image
        Aodfionn
      12. CooperCooper IowaMember Posts: 5,113 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Good thing I always keep this spare in my back pocket.

        Shirszae
      13. BlujixapugBlujixapug Member Posts: 1,833 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        What, this thing?

         
        image
        CooperMorthifSyriTharvis
      14. AodfionnAodfionn Seattle, WAMember Posts: 1,218 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Amarillys has trolled me into responding. Just wait till daddy gets home from work, and the belt is coming off.
        Aurora says, "Are you drunk, Aodfionn?" 

        (The Targossian Academy): Halos says, "Go on! I need to feel the wind in my hair!"


        AlcinaeHerenicusVaehlJeslyn
      15. NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Ernam said:
        I do, however, truly apologize for being so bold as to have an opinion different than your own.
        Apology accepted. :3

        See, if you were all like @Ernam, we'd have been done here like three pages ago!
        ShirszaeJeslynAmarillysSyri
      16. AodfionnAodfionn Seattle, WAMember Posts: 1,218 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Apologies, Ama, that was meant in a more joking tone than I apparently conveyed. You brought up an interesting point that I think is genuinely worth addressing: having excommunicated priests keep any benefit, based on 'but we already lose two skills.' 

        No. Why?

        Because in the end, you are making an informed, voluntary decision to get excommunicated. I get the impression that you are talking about it as if I'm just waiting for someone to not capitalize Aurora's name in speech to hit the excom button - this could not be farther from the truth. Like Daeir, I personally would rather not force someone to potentially waste OOC investment in their character, because fuck that. I want to make this game fun for people, and recalling one or more of your skills doesn't make it more fun for anyone. 

        You pretty much have to make a conscious decision to get excommunicated. If you don't want it to happen, it is -incredibly- easy to avoid. The expectations for the Diaspora are next to nothing, and I'm not sure if I'm even allowed to make it any more difficult than it currently is. The only circumstances I can foresee actually using Excom are on (a) novices being morons, which at level 35 isn't going to set them back in lessons or (b) people who are purposefully going for Excom as an RP device. For those people, there is no viable reason they should get to hold on to their priestly skills at all, imho. 


        tl;dr if you get excom'd, you are probably trying to get excom'd. also crai moar if you are excom'd.  

        Aurora says, "Are you drunk, Aodfionn?" 

        (The Targossian Academy): Halos says, "Go on! I need to feel the wind in my hair!"


        ErnamJeslyn
      17. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
        edited November 2014

        I've seen some of the "You're about to get excommed" conversations, and it's definitely true that (at least in the ones I saw) every attempt was made to figure something out that didn't involve excommunication.  Personally, I think it was too lenient - but even I don't think it's necessary unless you're pretty much actively anti-Good or very openly and consistently breaking the very few rules (raiding Targossas, Defiling Bloodsworn shrines, bashing innocents, basically).

        @Aodfionn is totally right.  If you get excommed, you knew you were doing something that would result in it, usually repeatedly, and did it anyways.  Your fault, not IREs, or Targossas'.

        "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


              Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
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