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Why is priest blessing effectiveness written into the game code?

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Answers

  • JhuiJhui Member Posts: 1,958 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Rofl sensitive brigade
    image
    AtalkezTzond
  • TryleTryle Member Posts: 8
    Holy crap this escalated quickly. Uh... I'll TL;DR this, of course, but I think it's kinda interesting so maybe you should read it  :p 

    What bothers me the most is this:
    Halos said:
    If you are asking for some sort of events post where you can read the account of the Church's High Convocation Against Heresy or the Sacred Blood Ritual of Oathbinding performed by the Hierarchs of Celestia, then I think you will be disappointed.

    There is no IG event or canon explanation for how this came about, mechanically. 
    When Alchemists were introduced and the Divine team wanted cities to pick between Alchemists and forestals, there was an in-game explanation: that the Alchemical font blocked the forestal's natural abilities (or something like that). In Cyrene's case, they discussed the options, argued over it, and eventually voted on it, eventually accepting Alchemists and grandfathering forestals. Because there was an in-game explanation, players were able to engage a mechanical element (picking forestals or alchemists) through their characters, expressing their agreement, disgust, or ambivalence about the situation. 

    Without an in-game canon/event/explanation, characters cannot engage with a game mechanic.

    The current 100/66/0 percentile arrangement was never accounted for in the lore, which means that no matter what is said on these forums, characters cannot discuss the blessing discrepancy in-game. What should happen is that the Bloodsworn Gods say something like, "Let it be known that all devotionists who leave Targossas are not true protectors of Creation. As such, their blessings shall be weaker - possibly nonexistent - until they return to the Holy City of Light." This would allow characters to interact with the blessing issue directly, calling for the strongest advocacies from both sides. Targossians will likely approve (Creation > Your Feelings), while other devotionists (#Cyrene) will likely feel slighted, abused, untrusted, and fundamentally disrespected. Some may move to Targossas to further their powers, others may seek compromise with Targossas while remaining outside of it. Still others may ragequit the priesthood/paladinhood entirely and become new Eleusian druids/sentinels  o:) . Afterwards, the Bloodsworn Gods might change their decision, or they might not - it doesn't matter. What matters is that characters can interact with sensitive conflicts through their own world (rather than code), and that they make decisions that reflect their own ideals. 

    TL;DR: Make up an IG reason for this game mechanic, let Targossas and Cyrene duke it out, then accept the consequences that follow.
    HalosBlujixapugNimShirszae
  • FlorentinoFlorentino Member Posts: 516
    edited November 2014
    Jhui said:
    Rofl sensitive brigade
    See, hon, thing is that reputation clean-up efforts don't really work when you keep torching yourself immediately afterwards...

    As for the topic at hand - I feel like it would be better if there were some sort of IC way to deal with the different levels of blessing effectiveness. This could be a great RP event and a good way for the new Deacon of Celestia to get some face time! 
    Shirszae
  • JhuiJhui Member Posts: 1,958 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You act like I'm worried about my reputation.

    Sup derail
    image
    Atalkez
  • CaladbolgCaladbolg Campbell County TNMember Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Aodfionn said:
    Yeah, the fact that it is 0% for Cyrenian Pallies and 100% for Cyrenian priests is kind of lol.
    Isn't Cyrenian devotionists required to be allies of Targ anyways?

  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,164 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    100% for Targ Priests & Paladins, 66% for Cyrenian Priests and Paladins and non-Devotionist Targossians, 0% for everyone else.
    MorthifVaehlSeifur
  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Why do people keep wanting to nerf Cyrenian priests, exactly?

    How about we make non-Cyrenian bards deal 20% less damage than Cyrenian bards?

    Or make void stance 50% worse for non-Babelites?

    They already paid for the skills one way or another. Just because skills are cheaper than artefacts, that doesn't mean they're cheap outright. In fact, I'd argue that they're not really cheaper than artefacts given the tradeoff that by being a priest, you can't be some other class, like blademaster.

    And based on my reports, life sucks when you're not a blademaster. Do you really want to nerf people who already suffer the terrible life of not being a blademaster? They can't even evade, gosh, what more do you want!
    JeslynTrillianaAmarillys
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,164 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    That might make sense if those were factional classes.
    HalosAlcinae
  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jovolo said:
    That might make sense if those were factional classes.
    Bards historically were a Cyrenian class. Their magical arts were taught by Scarlatti, and therefore they fall within his realm no differently than devotion falls within the Bloodsworn Gods' realm, so there's nothing stopping that from making sense on an IC level.

    On an OOC level, however, the admins have pretty much indicated that Cyrene and Hashan will remain unwanted bastard children cities, with no plans of ever actually giving them some sort of game mechanic-supported factional identity.

    So, for the time being, priests and paladins functionally are Cyrene's factional classes, if in a really dumb way that a lot of people wish we could just move away from.
    JeslynTrilliana
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,164 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited November 2014
    No, it's completely different. To what extent does Scarlatti control the Bard class? He doesn't. At least not canonically, only hypothetically. He taught it to them, sure, but in that respect we could equally say that CIJ has full control over Tarot because Silvestri taught it to them. They don't. 

    All factional classes are controlled to some extent (usually a large one) by their respective factions. Mhaldor can anathematize people they don't want to use Necromancy, Devotionists can Excommunicate, Forestals can forest-enemy, Occultists have exclusive access to the Eschaton. This is important, because it creates balance when it comes to group conflict between organizations. 

    I have no issue with Bards being factionalized, but currently they aren't. I was in support of Runewardens returning to Cyrene when Phaestus was Patron - it would have been a major plot arc in Achaea and fun to see.

    They're lucky enough to keep the class let alone benefit to the same degree as those who belong to the faction of the factional class. It surprises me anyone would say the class is gimped if you play it as a Cyrenian. You can still aura others, hands others, heal others, use all of Devotion to 100% of its capability. A decrease in the effectiveness of Blessings is a very small price to pay.
  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jovolo said:
    They're lucky enough to keep the class let alone benefit to the same degree as those who belong to the faction of the factional class. It surprises me anyone would say the class is gimped if you play it as a Cyrenian. You can still aura others, hands others, heal others, use all of Devotion to 100% of its capability. A decrease in the effectiveness of Blessings is a very small price to pay.
    you're trolling right? you don't actually believe the words you've typed, and I can press the LOL button below your post, yes? it's difficult to tell. D:
    AmarillysShirszaeJeslyn
  • TarkorTarkor Member Posts: 14 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    Tryle said:
     a "Soulsmith" - a class that heals with the same world-building forces that the Gods use?  
    That would probably be the only thing that would make me change my class. Make it so!
  • TarkorTarkor Member Posts: 14 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    There was quite a change in the last 200 or so Achaean years in how Cyrenian Devotion (and in this case Healing) users are treated, so saying that "It's the Bloodsworn Gods' domain, deal with it" is not really all that helpful.

    Cyrene was founded by a Paladin player, we've had Paladins and Priests for far longer than Targossas has even existed. I fully understand that the current RP of the Bloodsworn Gods (and the players following them) has developed a lot into a direction that wants to cut off Cyrene from that power, but it might be helpful to bear in mind that it is a recent development, not something historical. Yes, there was the church once upon a time, but the development of a highly radical, fanatically religious body governing (and having the means to do something about it) the "misuse" of a Devo's abilities is new.

    I would be in favor of removing devo classes from Cyrene if we got something new and shiny for it. I don't think there's a new class anywhere on the horizon, though, and just cutting them out and leaving us with nothing would definitely suck.
    Jeslyn
  • SilasSilas Member Posts: 2,544 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited November 2014
    This is not a new thing, and while I agree that Cyrene should get their own factional classes (Bard and Runewarden), maintaining the shitty status quo isn't a good compromise.

    I likewise understand why Tecton doesn't want to let Targossas excomm the existing 70-odd Cyrenian priests (they've paid rl money for their class), but there is zero reason why new Devotionists are still allowed in Cyrene.

    Cyrene can say what they want about how much it would suck to take away their access to the one remaining factional class they have, but the fact is that it is not their factional class. Priests and Paladins belonged historically to the Church, with missionaries sent elsewhere. Mortal Church leadership was lax in the policing of Cyrenian Devotion/Healing/Spirituality use, and that has been addressed now by the replacement for the Church (and the disastrous Citadel that followed): the city of Targossas and the Bloodsworn.

    Not liking that doesn't change it, and if we were allowed, Targossas would absolutely further roleplay out the situation with Devotion and where it stands. But we've been told unequivocally that this situation is not going to change, so there's no motivation to roleplay a situation you disagree with but know you cannot effect.

    The best solution would have been for Cyrene's new Houses to not allow Priests/Paladins, and to move on to solidify their claim on Bards and Runewardens, but that didn't happen.

    Oh well.

  • AddamaAddama Member Posts: 947 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    It's not like Cyrene is anywhere near being a PVP powerhouse, or that giving Cyrenians 100% blessings would suddenly wreck the absolutely flawless PVP faction balance in this game.
    ~Kresslack's obsession~
    Tzond
  • AradorArador Member Posts: 1,696 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Don't knock em. They are the masters of the delayed dogpile. You sit and wait for an hour wondering if any defenders are coming and suddenly you get disconnected from the spam as they enter. 

    Aerek
  • AodfionnAodfionn Seattle, WAMember Posts: 1,216 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I wish I could excom this thread. 
    Aurora says, "Are you drunk, Aodfionn?" 

    (The Targossian Academy): Halos says, "Go on! I need to feel the wind in my hair!"


  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaMember Posts: 5,030 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I wish I could excom your face.



























    (Okay going back to my excommed corner now).
               My wing tips waltz across naive
                     Wood floors they creak
                  Innocently down the stairs

                          Drag melody
    My percussive feet serve cobweb headaches as a
              Matching set of marching clocks
                The slumbering apparitions
              That they've come to wake up
    TrillianaAodfionnHalos
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Good governs the effectiveness of the spirit channel, therefore the further away someone is from Good, the less binding the elemental magic of the blessings will be when used on them. There you go, canonical explanation. I'll have a Harbinger magically think of it in a week. Thank me later.

    Also, excom should remove embraced class lesson reclaiming penalty. Excom's never going to be abused to achieve that mechanic because it's such an RP-oriented thing, so there should be no issue in doing this. People retain the bulk of their lessons and can do whatever with their artefacts, I guess.

    In fairness though, people are warned when they play the two clerical-aligned classes (Apostate/Priest) that there are RP mandates expected of them and they can permanently lose access to some of those skills if they don't live up to that. I think there needs to be a warning or somesuch for this made more visible somewhere.
  • AmarillysAmarillys Member Posts: 797 @ - Epic Achaean
    I didn't mean to suggest I was bitching about excomm. I totally get why it exists and I think it's a good, powerful RP tool. I like that priests and paladins are forced to submit to the Divine that give them their power. I've stripped Paladins and Clerics of their powers in DnD as a DM because of their actions. Ama was a priest for a year or two and switched when she fell in with a 'bad crowd'. Basically, good people who were just in the wrong factions and spending time with them would have her lose her devotion. It sucked because she wanted to help people but she knew she couldn't. I like excomm and I like that the power exists.

    Silas said:
    This is not a new thing, and while I agree that Cyrene should get their own factional classes (Bard and Runewarden), maintaining the shitty status quo isn't a good compromise.
    Like I said, maintaining the status quo is par. It's not lucky or unlucky. Things could be worse but they could be a lot better.

    Silas said:
    Cyrene can say what they want about how much it would suck to take away their access to the one remaining factional class they have, but the fact is that it is not their factional class.
    I don't think anyone was suggesting it -was- their factional class. Pointing out that it is their only factional class and that it would suck to have it ripped without getting anything for it would be crappy. Understandable? Sure. Still not a good thing.




    One quick question for all the Targossians pointing out that they want to strip it and would if they could. Isn't allowing Cyrene to keep their Devotion something keeping them from embracing one of the other factional classes? I want to point out that, mechanically  this might not work, but roleplaying wise, isn't keeping Cyrene in the Light a way to ensure they never decide to allow Occultists or Necromancers into their city? Okay, necromancy doesn't fit into the Cyrenian landscape, and Occultism isn't much better, but ICly, hasn't anyone ever pondered the repercussions of stripping Cyrene of devotion? They could always say, well, we lost our priests and paladins... maybe we should revisit allowing other classes into the city.

    Once more, because I know that sounds a bit stupid, I'm not saying it could happen, I'm not sure it would even be allowed to happen, but if I was running an organisation that was trying to spread Light and there was a small Bastion of peace lovers that were clinging to a portion of that Light by a thread, I would think twice before ripping that thread away because it might mean they fall.



    ShirszaeBadeTrilliana
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I hated it. I wanted to use excom so badly but couldn't reconcile the fact I was pissing 423 of another person's credits away on it. I did everything possible to delay the circumstances enough for them to either fade into obscurity or become a non-factor. I literally let a person flagrantly deny entry into the Diaspora over a dozen times and did not excommunicate them.

    It was not fun. At all. Excom's mechanical aspects are a deathknell for the class and a forced class change if the person wants to remain with a usable class at the end of the day. Until that spectre is removed or someone is Deacon that doesn't care about it, it's going to remain a rare occurrence typically reserved for lolalts. Having that weigh on your conscience when you're trying to play a game is a bag of ass.
    SyriTzond
  • SilasSilas Member Posts: 2,544 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited November 2014
    No. From a roleplay perspective, it's all about choice - Cyrene can do as they will, and Targossas will happily stand with or against them based ln that choice. Bribing people to be barely neutral by whoring out the blessing of Devotion is totally against Targossian ethos and beliefs.

    AodfionnMorthifHalos
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    And by Cyrene "doing as they will" we all mean Verrucht eagerly pushing them towards a path that doesn't suck horrible ass and then 3/4 of the city losing the frosting on their cupcakes in disbelief that someone would dare shift them out of their ethos of inaction and irresponsibility, before the status quo eventually takes hold again and everyone ceases to give a shite.


    Shirszae
  • AmarillysAmarillys Member Posts: 797 @ - Epic Achaean
    Silas said:
    No. From a roleplay perspective, it's all about choice - Cyrene can do as they will, and Targossas will happily stand with or against them based ln that choice. Bribing people to be barely neutral by whoring out the blessing of Devotion is totally against Targossian ethos and beliefs.
    Looking for clarification because I'm curious, how are they barely neutral? The idea often goes they are neutral good and I think they do a good job of that. Good people who just do not like to get involved. So I'm not attacking or anything (Sad I feel I have to say that) I'm just curious.



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