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Answers
That seems like a slightly ridiculous position to take. Changes to the way abilities function happen all the time, and very few of them are accompanied by any change to existing lore or roleplay events. Adventurers are just left to accept that things aren't how they were the last time they entered the realms, because the very fabric of reality has been altered. I'm not sure why this has to be different.
Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files
talk tome about I in game if you'd like. I am a big fan of how targossas views what you keep calling neutral good.
There is Evil, which is defined solely by Sartan and the Seven Truths.
There is Good, which is defined solely by the Bloodsworn.
Using a stereotypical DnD alignment assessment of anything in Achaea is going to be wrong, because Achaean morals and ethics are distinctly achaean. They've been developed independent of the OOC world.
Cyrene - Lawful Good. They follow a strict set of laws set up by their city, with a rather large bureaucracy that keeps their wheels spinning. Theft, spying, and murder are considered wrong and heavily frowned upon.
Targossas - Neutral (True) Good. They have laws, but they themselves point out that if a law gets in the way of doing good, change it. Ultimately their focus is on doing good for good's sake.
Mhaldor - Lawful Evil. They follow a strict set of laws, the Seven Truths, and use those to expand their own growth often at the expense of others.
Hashan - Neutral, leaning towards the lawful side of the LC spectrum. Sticking to themselves, they hold that they are their own people while having a set of laws that governs them but is not necessarily strict.
Eleusis - Chaotic Neutral. They do what is right to protect a larger cause, often deciding at the moment what is their best course of action. They are held to few morals and hold that nature is all that matters.
Ashtan - Chaotic Evil. Freedom for all, do as you will, there is no tomorrow. This often comes at the expense of others.
I have talked to you in game and I wish I got to do it more
I'd be more inclined to call Cyrene Good and Targ Light+Righteousness.
[ SnB PvP Guide | Link ]
Re: OP
As was mentioned, I believe the main reason the change needed to be "hard coded" is the fact that priests alts were giving Spirituality (ie "Good") defenses, quite regularly, to enemies of Good. There were also quite a few people who, in the past, went priest, solely so that they could sit around and bless enemies for "huge" amounts of gold. I've also heard of more than a few people side-stepping multiplaying rules to create priest blessing alts, just to bless their own or their friends' characters. Some of them were caught, but as with all "crimes", the majority of them got away with it, because it's so hard to catch (and prove) people doing this.
As @Blujixapug described in the first reply, factions all have their own abilities which are quite limited. This is why most forest stuff was hard-coded to only work for Eleusis, as well. Before the change to blessings, they were the only factional-based buff that could be given to non-citizens - and was frequently being used in conjunction with other people's factional buffs (like Necromancy).
The second thing that needs mentioned is that anyone can get the benefits of Spirituality shields, if they get allied to Targossas. If there's one thing that has been stressed (by the Divine) to no end, in the last year, it's that Good is something exclusively "owned" by Targossas, much like Evil belongs specifically to Mhaldor. Thus, it would actually make more sense to not even allow Cyrene to have priests/paladins in the first place, than to hard-code them to receive Good-based buffs.
Now, I'm not pushing for that to actually happen, I'm just suggesting that Cyrene is kindof lucky to be able to use priest/paladin, at all. You're essentially suggesting that because you were given the gift of being able to use the factional classes of another city, you should also receive the factional buffs of that city as well. In this case, I don't think you need to have Targossas' cake, and eat it too. Eat your own cake. I give you some credit since Cyrene doesn't really have its own factional class, but I think the assumption that you simply should get access to Good-based things, as a non-Good-based city, is a little off.
As I said, you can already receive the benefits of blessings if you get allied to Targossas. If I was going to suggest anything on this topic, I would suggest that Targossas be a bit more open to the idea of allying people outside of the city. I see no reason for the isolationist attitude we've had with it, pretty much since founding. The city ally system is actually pretty cool, and I think it'd be great to actually use it - particularly for people trying to play "Good" characters, that are not citizens of Targossas.
Cyrene is lucky that the only factional class we have access to belongs totally to another city, and that the admins have no intention of actually giving us a real factional class.
I get that priests and paladins originally made sense in Cyrene, but after all the changes, it's not far from if Targossas didn't have any factional classes, but they're allowed to borrow the forestal classes, as long as the Targossans with that class follow Eleusis's rules.
That's lucky, folks. Since so many Targossans think that's lucky, let's go ahead and drop Priest and Paladin in exchange for some Cyrenian faction classes, since I'm pretty sure maintenance concerns are why Cyrene and Hashan get nothing.
Also all the posts explaining that Good(tm) is a copyright trademark controlled and dictated by the Bloodsworn Gods Inc. were just silly and needless. Yes, we're aware that Targossas went and tried to redefine one of the most loaded words ever, but neutral good is not really "neutral but also Good(tm)" - its existence predates Targossas, and perhaps the "good" part comes from Shallamese good, but mostly "Cyrene is neutral good" just means "Cyrene is neutral, but generally tries to stay away from obviously evil activity."
Woah, did you just make clothes for any purpose other than being fashionable? You are so out of season, I am sorry, give us all of your fashion points back. You can still wear clothes and sew them if you have the license, and I guess we'll let you keep the bashing attack whatever that is, but no more high fashion for you.
So you have this situation where Targossas is the bastion of Good and Targ's Patrons are only attached to Targ, and Good is only defined through them, so therefore Targ is the sole city of Good.
.
.
.
Exceppptttt. You have this city that has a history of allying with Targ/Shallam. A city that rejects the Evil, Chaos, and Nature classes. A city that is indeed, Good enough, that Targ's patrons continue to allow them to use Devotion... to the tune of 70+ users. There's an organization who's entire purpose is teaching these Devotion users to be Good, and to keep them in line.
Surely "Good" makes it somewhere in Cyrene's headline, whether its supposed to be there or not.
I'd say Cyrene is pretty clearly lawful neutral, leaning just slightly towards lawful good. They somewhat frown on murdering innocent people, but for the most part find it acceptable as long as it doesn't happen to citizens or in the city, and even if they largely dislike evil, they don't care enough to actually do anything about it, as long as they're left alone.
Targossas is a mix of neutral good and chaotic good, but probably more neutral than chaotic.
I agree on Mhaldor and Hashan.
Eleusis is... complicated, and has shifted several times over the years. I'm not sure what the current climate is like, but if it hasn't changed too drastically from what I remember, then it's probably either true neutral or neutral good. A few people have wanted the city to shift to something more chaotic than neutral, but so far I haven't seen much success in that.
Ashtan is pretty much the definition of chaotic neutral.
If Cyrene wants to be part of Good, then they should officially pursue it.
The entire point of "Good" (as currently defined, conveniently, by the gods of Good), requires a firm stance on Evil, Chaos, etc, not an attitude of meh, we don't LIKE Evil/Chaos, but we are officially neutral.
The whole point of this stance is to avoid being targeted by Mhaldor/Ashtan - but for the benefit of anyone who hasn't logged in in the last year - you already are, anyways.
Being part of Good comes with some benefits, and (arguably) much more responsibility/drawbacks.
Asking for the benefits while feverishly decreeing that you want no part in associated responsibilities is unwarranted.
What would you say to Hashan if they asked Mhaldor for Infernal/Apostate, and to share the Gravehands buff with citizens of Hashan, etc, but firmly stated that they in no way wanted to oppress anyone or smudge Good from existence? Sarapin sacrifice? No way - we just want Necromancy for free, please.
The only difference between that comparison is that Cyrene already allows good, whereas it would require a change to do the equivalent with Hashan. You're used to having Devotion, so you simply assume that you deserve to have it, and keep it, forever.
And you won't understand the cause of your grief...
...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.
Yeah, but there are many priests who do the same. The requirement for them (and presumably, yourself) is to maintain your link to the ideology, even as a non-citizen. Without that, you get excommed/necro-banned. Same thing goes for forestals, wherever they drift.
No, I'm pretty sure the point of Cyrene being neutral is very much steeped in its general roleplay, its flavor, and honestly its entire purpose in existing in the game at all.
Are you implying Cyrene doesn't have drawbacks? Hahaha...
Do you think Verrucht went to @Tecton and was like, "hey, instead of giving us a factional class of our own, just let us keep devotion" or something? Cyrene's has a huge playerbase, so I'm sure there's one or two people who're like "I WANNA BE CYRENIAN PRIESTS" but I'm pretty sure most people would vastly prefer it if we got our own classes and didn't have to mooch.
In the meantime, if @Tecton and co. are going to be adamant about Cyrene having to mooch off of devotion, we might as well get the full thing, yes? Yes.
Wouldn't it be great if Hashan also got their own class and didn't have to mooch? Why is that not an option (aside from the fact that the admins basically refuse to let it be one)? That being said, do you not actually read the forums? Given your post I think you probably don't, but in hopes you read this, being Hashan don't sound so great either, kid.
Um... I don't know how to respond to this. This is just too much for me. :c someone else please respond to this one, I-I can't T_T
@Nim Not going to spend a load of time replying since virtually your entire post is full of passive aggressive jabs... but you seem to have misunderstood the main gist of what I said.
I wasn't suggesting that Cyrene should become a city of Good, I was suggesting that if they want to use Good features, then they should accept the drawbacks of being afilliated with Good as an ideology. So far it seems like they repeatedly come to forums with their hand out, asking for benefits of other factions' benefits, without being willing to accept the downside of having them (being anti-Evil/Chaos).
I'm saying that Cyrene should make a clear decision - I'm definitely not saying what that decision should be. I will say that it's just silly IMO to ask for all the pros but none of the cons.
I do, however, truly apologize for being so bold as to have an opinion different than your own.
The OOC problem:
Rogue Priest (lolalts) are blessing Targossian enemies, which upsets combat balance and requires a hardcoded answer.
It is perfectly possible to hardcode a system that prevents Targossian enemies from receiving blessings while also acknowledging priests outside of Targossas. Here it is:
100%
Characters with the Healing ability
66%
Targossasians
Cyrenians
Eleusisians
0%
Homeless/Unaligned
Mhaldorians
Ashtani
Hashani
AND ALL Apostates, Infernals, Occultists, and Shamans in ANY city. [if implementable]
Enemies of Targossas [if implementable]
Under this system, any person associated with Evil, Dark, or Chaos through their class or their citizenship cannot benefit from blessings, period. While the Bloodsworn Gods ICly allow blessing homeless/unaligned characters, neutrals have been removed to prevent potential "renunciation abuse," where an Ashtani could renounce his citizenship, get a rogue priest's blessings, then join Ashtan again and abuse login/logout workarounds to keep them.
"But wait? Why are you including those /cyber Cyrenians and the Nature Nazis? They don't fight and die for Good, in fact, they ~barely~ support Creation at all!"
Cyrene and Eleusis are included for two main reasons:
1) The Bloodsworn God-sanctioned Diaspora lets priests live in places not directly associated with Evil, Chaos, or Darkness, which basically means Cyrene and Eleusis.
2) Priests may bless neutral characters just as aptly as they may kill them. Neutrals are not guaranteed any protections, but they are not forcefully denied them, either.
Remember that original 100/66/0 blessings change was designed to fix an OOC combat problem. As long as we can fix that problem, there is no IG reason why blessings should be limited further than their original intentions. Unless the Bloodsworn Gods come out and say, "Blessings belong only to Targossas," the status quo says that neutrals may be granted blessings (although they are by no means entitled to them). Based on these precedents, unoffending Cyrenians and Eleusisians should eligible for blessings.
Potential Extras:
- Let the Bloodsworn Gods completely control the "Blessings List." Cyrene or Eleusis ticks them off? Have them pull the plug on that city's blessings and make a big RP spectacle out of it.
- Encourage the Diaspora to actively spread Good in their new homes, rather than just living there. I think this could create a cool "missionary" motif that would probably work pretty well in Cyrene and questionably well in Eleusis.
Respectfully,
*An Eleusian who desperately wants an Earthshield/Endurance blessing*
@Tecton I'm spilling my heart out here, man. Show me a sign! *10 min later - - - -> shrubbed*
P.S.
This whole "Blessing List" thing should probably apply to Bliss as well, but I have no idea how that's coded and there's no super gamebreaking reason to mess with it as it is now.
A fair compromise.
It makes absolutely no sense if a hard-coded solution was introduced for Eleusians to derive the same benefit from Blessings as Targossians do.
The Diaspora was created to reign in Devotionists across Sapience under the Targossian Good. As long as they are upholding those tenants, there is no reason why their powers should be any weaker than those of a Targossian working under the same commitments.
To rephrase, the Bloodsworn Gods work in absolutes - you are either worthy of their blessings, or you are not. All of the "Do not bless/fraternatize/etc." guidelines are based on this principle: "These people are bad; these people are acceptable." For gameplay reasons, priests get the "full" aspects of their blessings, as that is one of their primary utilities. For the rest of us, however, that 66% blessing is the "real" blessing, which you either have, or you do not. If Eleusisians and Cyrenians may be blessed by existing rules (which they are), they have already been deemed "acceptable" by the Bloodsworn Gods to receive the "real" blessing - not a half-baked version.
A reoccurring (Targossian) argument seems to be: "Targossas does more Good than anyone else, therefore, their blessings should be stronger." Please remember the absolutism inherent to the Bloodsworn Gods and their interpretation of Good. If you are qualified to receive a blessing, then you are qualified to receive it in it's entirety ICly, with exceptions made only on behalf preserving OOC game balance (i.e. Priest getting a much larger benefit than everyone else). If you are not qualified, then you get nothing, nada, zilch, zero. There is no "half blessing" - there are acceptable recipients and heathens. This ideology existed back in the Shallam days, and is even more emphasized now.
TL;DR: As of now, it makes MORE sense that Eleusians derive the same benefits from blessings that Targossians do - it's all the same blessing, approved by the same Divine, distributed by Priests obeying the same Targossian code.
I'm mostly avoiding this thread because reasons, but you guys are acting like Cyrene is demanding a lot. It's really not. This was something sanctioned by the game's administration, and no matter how you look at it, it exists and continues to exist. We didn't ask for it (or the deletion of the Lumeni). It came to us, and we were told "this is the way, we're giving you a chance, don't muck it up". Exempting my own personal circumstances, as far as I know, they haven't mucked it up.
That love soon might end You are unbreaking
And be known in its aching Though quaking
Shown in this shaking Though crazy
Lately of my wasteland, baby That's just wasteland, baby
While we're on the subject though, I agree that this black-and-white assessment of Good and not Good should be taken and applied at large. The problem is, this would catapult us into the same issues the admin faced when Rho excommed all of Cyrene and that means a lot of unhappy customers for the admin to deal with. However, if we are going to apply such an outlook that you say already exists, Tryle, then there is no rational argument I can see to be made against providing Targossians with 100% of the benefit of Blessings and everyone else being left with 0%.
That love soon might end You are unbreaking
And be known in its aching Though quaking
Shown in this shaking Though crazy
Lately of my wasteland, baby That's just wasteland, baby