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If you could change one thing about your city...

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  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesPosts: 5,787Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2014
    Jacen said:
    To be fair, there's a perfectly good point to be made in "Because the Bloodsworn said so" not being a good enough reason. Yes, its how Targossas works, but during the 99.9% of the time when the bloodsworn aren't around, Targ players need to be able to back up their ideology. You're not going to win any debates playing "Because the Bloodsworn said so" on repeat. 

    Give Targ players the tools they need to make this an actual conflict that can be debated over.
    It's solely the responsibility of the people leading the city to enforce the ideology....or to not enforce it. Either way, if it gets enough out of hand I'm sure they'll be called to account on why it was allowed to get to a point to where the Bloodsworn had to step in and proverbially (or physically) cuff someone upside the head.

    My point is, that's Targossas' concern, not everyone else's. If it makes their platform for debate look weak, then that's something -they- will have to recognize and address however they wish to, or to simply ignore it if that is their decision.


    Bluef
  • AchimrstAchimrst NaturePosts: 3,608Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kresslack said:
     What do you think Sartan's reaction would be if some Sentinel pestered him with the pompous question as to why Sentinels are not permitted into Mhaldor?
    I just wanted to comment on this and didn't really read if anyone did after I read it. Yet, I don't think comparing Sentinel wanting into Mhaldor is the right way to look at it. I think it's more closely to Alchemists asking Eleusis/Gaia why they aren't permitted into Eleusis. I mean the Tsol'aa have an Alchemist in the Tsol'aa village, or at least used to, and they are considered friends of nature. So why exactly are Alchemists not allowed in Eleusis? Well apparently it's because of some kind of forestal jealousy is all I have ever heard about it.

    So in my view again, Shaman not being allowed in Targossas is similar to this in that it's kind of an ambiguous reason which you can make up all kinds of things for which sort of make sense but then again not really so people just meh at it.
    Bluef
  • AchimrstAchimrst NaturePosts: 3,608Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Draqoom said:
    Bluef said:
    When I said that no one has a legitimate reason, I meant a hard coded one; because none exists. It's all just "Because the Bloodsworn said so," which is sort of lame and isn't really an argument or reason, it's a commandment. This argument put forth here itself is full of faulty premises. 

    Well, given just this sentence I am to assume that you would agree with Mhaldorian priests/paladins/forestals, Targossian occultists/infernals/apostates, Ashtani priests/paladins or Eleusian Infernals/Apostates simply because those are not hard coded to not be possible combinations as well.

    Regardless of where Shamanism came from, it's established NPC role (which any healer in an underdeveloped village is probably going to be called a shaman, doesn't necessarily mean they are of the shaman class), or any other kind of role played identity it will always be linked to Hashan because of the Shaman guild, and by extension it will always be associated as Dark. That will keep Shamans on the nope list for Targossas. The 'legitimate reason' is the Bloodsworn see it as an extension of Darkness for the established reasons mentioned before. Even if there was a glimmer of hope that the rp of rogue neutral entities caught on and the Bloodsworn had a change of heart, all of that was shattered when spiritlore came about and has the Shaman capable of using Necromancy and/or Occultism through the respected spirits.
    Twilight has literally said, in the news, that Shaman are from Tomacula and have been around since before the Shaman guild in Hashan. Like srsly go search for it I am very sure it is still there in the news um...Events I think it was last I checked.

  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesPosts: 5,787Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It's the same difference. It boils down to a) because the natural patron (i.e. the patron that founded the organization) says so, which carries a significant amount of weight and b) ideological and cultural differences. It seems a fairly simple and predominately historical concept within Achaea.

    "Well apparently it's because of some kind of forestal jealousy is all I have ever heard about it."

    This is likely why so much ambiguity exists over things to begin with. "I heard, so I then said". If someone's that curious as to why, it's a simple matter of reaching out and asking someone with the credibility to give an educated answer, rather than basing one on speculation and rumour.


  • ShunsuiShunsui Posts: 681Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Achimrst said:
    Draqoom said:
    Bluef said:
    When I said that no one has a legitimate reason, I meant a hard coded one; because none exists. It's all just "Because the Bloodsworn said so," which is sort of lame and isn't really an argument or reason, it's a commandment. This argument put forth here itself is full of faulty premises. 

    Well, given just this sentence I am to assume that you would agree with Mhaldorian priests/paladins/forestals, Targossian occultists/infernals/apostates, Ashtani priests/paladins or Eleusian Infernals/Apostates simply because those are not hard coded to not be possible combinations as well.

    Regardless of where Shamanism came from, it's established NPC role (which any healer in an underdeveloped village is probably going to be called a shaman, doesn't necessarily mean they are of the shaman class), or any other kind of role played identity it will always be linked to Hashan because of the Shaman guild, and by extension it will always be associated as Dark. That will keep Shamans on the nope list for Targossas. The 'legitimate reason' is the Bloodsworn see it as an extension of Darkness for the established reasons mentioned before. Even if there was a glimmer of hope that the rp of rogue neutral entities caught on and the Bloodsworn had a change of heart, all of that was shattered when spiritlore came about and has the Shaman capable of using Necromancy and/or Occultism through the respected spirits.
    Twilight has literally said, in the news, that Shaman are from Tomacula and have been around since before the Shaman guild in Hashan. Like srsly go search for it I am very sure it is still there in the news um...Events I think it was last I checked.

    PUBLIC NEWS #10143                                      (10/08/2002 at 09:43)  
    From   : Lord Twilight Trismegistus
    To     : Everyone
    Subject: The Shamans
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Greetings, mortals,

    I've been watching the Shaman's development from the First Days of their
    inception. I am pleased at the progress they have made in Dark
    philosophy, Dark theology, novice training, and other fields. Their
    collective grasp of the Mysteries of the Dark Religion has amazed Me.
    With this post, I formally recognize them as a lay organization of the
    Dark Religion. The clergy, is of course, the members of My Order. Should
    anyone have questions about the Mysteries of Darkness, I encourage you
    to seek out a member of the Laity or a member of the Clergy.
    Congratulations, Shamans!

    In Darkness,
    Lord Twilight, the Thrice Great
     
    Penned by my hand on the 2nd of Lupar, in the year 317 AF.

    That's a pretty old post, and things could have changed a lot since then, but that seems a good enough point of reference to the class historically having ties to Darkness. I also checked events for anything regarding them being from Tomacula, all I found was that Firefox gained knowledge of the class from 'parts and sources unknown'.

    AchimrstHalos
  • AchimrstAchimrst NaturePosts: 3,608Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Shunsui said:
    Achimrst said:
    Draqoom said:
    Bluef said:
    When I said that no one has a legitimate reason, I meant a hard coded one; because none exists. It's all just "Because the Bloodsworn said so," which is sort of lame and isn't really an argument or reason, it's a commandment. This argument put forth here itself is full of faulty premises. 

    Well, given just this sentence I am to assume that you would agree with Mhaldorian priests/paladins/forestals, Targossian occultists/infernals/apostates, Ashtani priests/paladins or Eleusian Infernals/Apostates simply because those are not hard coded to not be possible combinations as well.

    Regardless of where Shamanism came from, it's established NPC role (which any healer in an underdeveloped village is probably going to be called a shaman, doesn't necessarily mean they are of the shaman class), or any other kind of role played identity it will always be linked to Hashan because of the Shaman guild, and by extension it will always be associated as Dark. That will keep Shamans on the nope list for Targossas. The 'legitimate reason' is the Bloodsworn see it as an extension of Darkness for the established reasons mentioned before. Even if there was a glimmer of hope that the rp of rogue neutral entities caught on and the Bloodsworn had a change of heart, all of that was shattered when spiritlore came about and has the Shaman capable of using Necromancy and/or Occultism through the respected spirits.
    Twilight has literally said, in the news, that Shaman are from Tomacula and have been around since before the Shaman guild in Hashan. Like srsly go search for it I am very sure it is still there in the news um...Events I think it was last I checked.

    PUBLIC NEWS #10143                                      (10/08/2002 at 09:43)  
    From   : Lord Twilight Trismegistus
    To     : Everyone
    Subject: The Shamans
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Greetings, mortals,

    I've been watching the Shaman's development from the First Days of their
    inception. I am pleased at the progress they have made in Dark
    philosophy, Dark theology, novice training, and other fields. Their
    collective grasp of the Mysteries of the Dark Religion has amazed Me.
    With this post, I formally recognize them as a lay organization of the
    Dark Religion. The clergy, is of course, the members of My Order. Should
    anyone have questions about the Mysteries of Darkness, I encourage you
    to seek out a member of the Laity or a member of the Clergy.
    Congratulations, Shamans!

    In Darkness,
    Lord Twilight, the Thrice Great
     
    Penned by my hand on the 2nd of Lupar, in the year 317 AF.

    That's a pretty old post, and things could have changed a lot since then, but that seems a good enough point of reference to the class historically having ties to Darkness. I also checked events for anything regarding them being from Tomacula, all I found was that Firefox gained knowledge of the class from 'parts and sources unknown'.
    Yeah I looked up where I read that post I think it might have been in the Spirit Walker news not public :(

    Yet if you continue to read what Twilight posted a lay organization doesn't mean they belong to Twilight

    PUBLIC NEWS #10150                                      (10/11/2002 at 10:35) 
    From   : Lord Twilight Trismegistus
    To     : The Unconscionable Fhyn Azon, Lady of the Renegade
    Subject: Shamans
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Greetings, Gwennefhyn Azon, Knighted Guard of Lord Aegis,

    The honour I extended to your Guild on behalf of My Order was a pleasure
    to Me. However, there seems to be a perception out there amongst mortals
    that this recognition was a ploy to "indoctrinate the Shamans further
    into My Dark grasp." My recognition of the Shamans as a lay organization
    of the Dark Order by no means precludes another Order from extending
    such recognition to them as well. In fact, as Patron of the Shamans, I
    view it as a badge of honour to be recognized by other religious Orders.
    Any who has done ANY study into the Dark Religion ought to understand
    that there are few things that are considered anathema to Us.
    Researching, understanding and learning about other religions is not one
    of them.

    In Darkness,
    Lord Twilight Trismegistus
     
    Penned by my hand on the 25th of Chronos, in the year 317 AF.

    ShunsuiBluef
  • BluefBluef DelosPosts: 2,176Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2014
    Achimrst said:

    Yet if you continue to read what Twilight posted a lay organization doesn't mean they belong to Twilight

    Agreed. Stuff from the Shamans Guild founder to back that up as well. He never intended the guild to be affiliated with or cowtow to any divine, not even Twilight.
  • ShunsuiShunsui Posts: 681Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yea, I saw that too. I was mostly bringing up the first one as it gives Targossas a pretty strong historical reference to be at the very least suspicious of shamans. Even if the guild no longer exists, and rogue shaman are wandering around with no ties whatsoever to that part of history, the class/guild at one point had strong ties to, and a lot of support from Twilight. Combine that with the fact that Targossians are (supposed to be) uncompromising, shortsighted assholes and/or zealots, and you get what I think is a fairly acceptable rp justification on them banning the class.

    Although, honestly, it's a hell of a lot easier to just say 'cause the bloodsworn said so' or 'they channel occultist and apostate spirits' >.>

  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,276Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The channeling Occultist and Apostate spirits is the dealbreaker, really. Maybe under the previous iteration of the class, we could have worked out some way of "purifying" the use of Curses to allow Targossian shamans to---

    Actually, holy fuck. I just had a fantastic idea.
    BluefShirszae
  • KaraiKarai Posts: 325Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited December 2014
    Let's just make Shaman a factional class, pour in some takeover of their abilities by Twilight like stealing away guardian angels and 'bam!', issue resolved. You're welcome. I hope sarcasm was not wasted here (no but maybe).
    Shirszae
  • AchimrstAchimrst NaturePosts: 3,608Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    If we become factional, I want undead minions.
    BluefSyri
  • BluefBluef DelosPosts: 2,176Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Achimrst said:
    If we become factional, I want undead minions.
    No, no...spirit husks. Give the husks to the shamans. Do it!
    Achimrst
  • AchimrstAchimrst NaturePosts: 3,608Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Bluef said:
    Achimrst said:
    If we become factional, I want undead minions.
    No, no...spirit husks. Give the husks to the shamans. Do it!
    And fangs, I want fangs even if they don't do anything. It will make us menacing.
  • RiashainRiashain Posts: 191Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Jesus Christ this thread
    Kuy
  • GreysGreys Posts: 701Member, Seafaring Liason ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Greys spent an exhaustive of time discussing it with Lady Aurora in no small part as he knew it would put a rift between him and his daughter, Kayeil. Sometimes we are given reasonings that we cannot fully understand the details of and have to take it on faith like the Yudhi thing in Conclave. 
  • KuyKuy Posts: 1,497Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2014
    Riashain said:
    Jesus Christ this thread
    Agreed - pretty sure this has just become a circle jerk.

    Also, apparently I'm abusive.  Which is endearing, in a way.
    [2:41:24 AM] Kenway: I bet you smell like evergreen trees and you could wrestle boreal mammals but they'd rather just cuddle you
  • SiduriSiduri Posts: 1,489Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kuy said:
    Riashain said:
    Jesus Christ this thread
    Agreed - pretty sure this has just become a circle jerk.

    Also, apparently I'm abusive.  Which is endearing, in a way.
    Somehow I picture you taking part in an abusive circle jerk, now.
    The internet has broken me.

    image
    KuyBluefKerria
  • AchimrstAchimrst NaturePosts: 3,608Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kuy said:
    Riashain said:
    Jesus Christ this thread
    Agreed - pretty sure this has just become a circle jerk.

    Also, apparently I'm abusive.  Which is endearing, in a way.
    Hot
    Bluef
  • RiashainRiashain Posts: 191Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    And .I get quoted in it. Awesome. Lol
    Achimrst
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