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If you could change one thing about your city...

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  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, Florida
    Kuy said:
    Kadin said:
    Greys said:
    I assumed you two were not serious. You knew who to talk to if you were.
    I was not. However I do believe Shamans should be allowed in Targossas. You guys are missing out. I mean.. spiritlore allows for Arayan and the power of priests :P What else does Good have to lose?

    If I recall, the Occultists stole Tarot from BigBadJesterDude (Silvestri, maybe?).  While the beginnings of Tarot were not tainted by the Occultists' magic, they turned what used to be a rather morally innocuous skill into one infused with their own workings.  While it's true that the original Tarot was perfectly fine, the Tarot which Sapience employs today is, in fact, the Tarot born from the Occultists.  However, even though this is the case, Targossas allows Jesters, who employ the exact same Occultist-born Tarot the Occultists use.  This seems to suggest that the "makings" of a magical art mean little, but only it's purpose or side-effects.
    My Occult history is rusty as all get out, but I believe it was actually shared willingly by the Jesters (Silvestri, yes) while they were hosting the Occultists when they were in hiding from the Church.

    For the rest of the argument, that's a rather interesting way to look at it.
    And I love too                                                                          Be still, my indelible friend
    That love soon might end                                                         You are unbreaking
    And be known in its aching                                                      Though quaking
    Shown in this shaking                                                             Though crazy
    Lately of my wasteland, baby                                                 That's just wasteland, baby
  • KuyKuy
    #propoganda #OneTrueGod
    [2:41:24 AM] Kenway: I bet you smell like evergreen trees and you could wrestle boreal mammals but they'd rather just cuddle you
  • SyriSyri
    edited December 2014
    Melodie said:
    Kuy said:
    Kadin said:
    Greys said:
    I assumed you two were not serious. You knew who to talk to if you were.
    I was not. However I do believe Shamans should be allowed in Targossas. You guys are missing out. I mean.. spiritlore allows for Arayan and the power of priests :P What else does Good have to lose?

    If I recall, the Occultists stole Tarot from BigBadJesterDude (Silvestri, maybe?).  While the beginnings of Tarot were not tainted by the Occultists' magic, they turned what used to be a rather morally innocuous skill into one infused with their own workings.  While it's true that the original Tarot was perfectly fine, the Tarot which Sapience employs today is, in fact, the Tarot born from the Occultists.  However, even though this is the case, Targossas allows Jesters, who employ the exact same Occultist-born Tarot the Occultists use.  This seems to suggest that the "makings" of a magical art mean little, but only it's purpose or side-effects.
    My Occult history is rusty as all get out, but I believe it was actually shared willingly by the Jesters (Silvestri, yes) while they were hosting the Occultists when they were in hiding from the Church.

    For the rest of the argument, that's a rather interesting way to look at it.
    Silvestri gave Occultists the knowledge of Tarot back when the Empire was still kicking. Then they tortured him later on in history to keep him from teaching it to others.

    Talk about gratitude!

    EDIT:

    In keeping with the theme of the thread -

    I would add more chairs/tables/furniture in general to appropriate places. One of the things that irks me most about Sapience is the lack of furniture you can interact with.
  • BluefBluef Delos
    edited December 2014
    This is probably tl;dr for most of you so I'll Spoiler it. It's directed at @Kuy's recent post. My responses are bolded:

    Kuy said: However, now that Shamans have the potential for invoking nefarious acts by channeling rather insidious spirits, the case is rather strong that since they have that potential, they cannot and will never be able to operate under Achaea's version of Good.

    Everyone is making the assumption that these spirits are insidious. What if it was an apostate who had a change of heart and morality just before death? There's really no way to know. It is just incredibly convenient to say, oh those spirits they channel: SO EVIL!

    Better yet, what if the spirit was like many shamans who roleplay transcending factional alignments to use their powers for something greater? Then the argument disappears all together because such individuals focus on altruistic acts that do not benefit themselves or any mundane power. That's why you might sometimes hear someone call the influence they serve "the Greater Good" because Achaea's version of Good doesn't even begin to compare with selfless acts intended to benefit all of the Multiverse, not just the one version of Creation your city embraces. 

    It is true, one might make the case of "but I'll just never use those spirits."  Well, then 1) you're limiting your own success within the world and purposefully stifling your own Growth (something anathema to the basic principles of Aurora), and 2) your character obviously spent time studying how to do those things, practicing them with your trainer until you could.  The idea that you have access to these powers by way of your basic training is not something that will go ever well.  This argument would be the same as an Occultist asking for entry into Targossas, assuring that they will renounce their Chaotic skills and simply never use them.  The potential is there, and therefore it is problematic.

    Bluef had this exact struggle when spiritlore first came out. It took her a little time and some long discussions with Achimrst and others IC to be able to bond spirits like Maligius with a confidence that turns aside preconceived ideas about the new class ability. But that was an IC thing and OOCly I think you're just misunderstanding how spiritlore works:

    Shamans don't take the time to learn to do anything: We very simply channel a spirit and magickally know what they know. Even toteming suggests that we are using abilities that we ourselves have never learned or studied. I'm not saying your argument in this paragraph is wrong (saying you won't use an ability doesn't mean you don't still have access to it) but its basic premise may be somewhat flawed. 

    I will, however, concede that the key difference in the directly above is that an Occultist's magic is born completely of Chaos, whereas Spiritlore is not born of anything insidious.  However, it must be true that the nature of a particular magic can be waved.  The example here is Tarot.

    The notion that an entire ability can somehow be corrupted by a faction possessing it and made to align with their ethos seems a little off.     What makes Occultists who they are is not their shared abilities, but the abilities that are not shared with other classes. If we follow this strain of logic, then at the very most shaman are neutral beings, possessing both good and bad skills that their class's ethos renders neutral. 

    To bind a spirit, you are channeling it through yourself so that you may manifest its powers - and more powerfully, its intentions (as argued by the Help and AB files).  This creates a strange case in where even though a spirit may not be aligned with Evil, Chaos, or Darkness, its very intentions - that from which you not only draw your power but manifest within the world - may be.  This creates a side-effect of using your magic which is antithetical to Good.

    I think you may be misinterpreting that AB file. Shamans are essentially holy men of their cities and villages, but they stand apart from any organized religion.     Any spirit that a shaman would channel in this continuous way would be one that also is set apart from mundane influences. Its intentions, like those of most shamans, would therefore not be antithetical to anything. They would be neutral, transcending worldly considerations and looking toward what would best serve the Multiverse both in its immediate parts and the greater whole. 

    It really is a shame, though.  Evil has the spirits on its side, assisting it in its advancement.  Good, however, must rely solely on the Bloodsworn.  And perhaps, this is the true reason the Bloodsworn will never allow a Shaman within Targossas - they are inherently controlling of their followers, and therefore refuse to allow them to use magic which draws from a source that is outside of their realm of influence.

    No, the spirits are everywhere. Every thing in the Multiverse possesses a spirit - even Targossas, its people, and all the creatures and things that dwell there. This is a core belief of roleplaying shaman. I frequently see Targossas' citizens using tarot for divination and other psychic and magickal powers, and it just makes me shrug at the lengths the city will go toward arguing that shamanic sympathetic magick is evil and and terrible while its own citizens dabble in arts that are in some cases far worse, more intrusive, and have nothing to do with healing, neutrality or altruism. 

    The Bloodsworn are the actual Tyrants, while the Lord allows us to choose our own path and grow in the ways we truly wish.  (I will argue here that Apostasy and Necromancy are the "true" Priesthoods, whereas Spirituality and Devotion are bastardized versions held forth by the strings of heretics, but that's another discussion.)

    Don't get me started on Spiritualism and how undervalued its liturgical and ministry offerings are. :warning: 
  • BluefBluef Delos
    Kuy said:
    #propoganda #OneTrueGod
    Keep your monotheistic cylon religion out of this! :smiling_imp: 

  • AchimrstAchimrst Nature
    edited December 2014
    Daeir said:
    Is any of what Bluef said canon outside the Curia Spiritus or whatever else?

    It really doesn't seem like it, but I have no idea.
    It's actually something learned in the Spirit Walker house, or was before they got rid of most of their books!

    Edit: Not to mention most of Ach's beliefs are from books for the orders of Twilight and Thoth and conversations with Phaestus. Phaestus was a cool guy.
  • KuyKuy
    Achimrst said:
    Daeir said:
    Is any of what Bluef said canon outside the Curia Spiritus or whatever else?

    It really doesn't seem like it, but I have no idea.
    It's actually something learned in the Spirit Walker house, or was before they got rid of most of their books!
    Wait.  So the Spirit Walker house had all kinda of books on how Spiritlore operated, but they got rid of them?

    WOW THOSE GUYS ARE FAST
    [2:41:24 AM] Kenway: I bet you smell like evergreen trees and you could wrestle boreal mammals but they'd rather just cuddle you
  • AchimrstAchimrst Nature
    Kuy said:
    Achimrst said:
    Daeir said:
    Is any of what Bluef said canon outside the Curia Spiritus or whatever else?

    It really doesn't seem like it, but I have no idea.
    It's actually something learned in the Spirit Walker house, or was before they got rid of most of their books!
    Wait.  So the Spirit Walker house had all kinda of books on how Spiritlore operated, but they got rid of them?

    WOW THOSE GUYS ARE FAST
    Yeah twist my words, but actually YES! The whole goal of the Spirit Walkers was something similar to how Spiritlore operated!

    LRN bro
  • BluefBluef Delos
    edited December 2014
    Daeir said:
    Is any of what Bluef said canon outside the Curia Spiritus or whatever else?

    It really doesn't seem like it, but I have no idea.

    When spiritlore was being fashioned, several of us went to Tecton and its developers with concerns that the class would be made factional or diverge from what is and always has been its focus on neutrality and altruism. When the actual event happened, I was overjoyed to see that they'd heard us. 

    The shamans of the realm went to visit 16 different shamanic practitioners across the realm, including those on islands (it took hours and was amazing) in order to help Kalden cross into this realm and break our bond with runelore. By doing that, we were exposed to the nature of what a shaman generally is: A spiritualist, a healer, a regional religious figure that is by in large neutral and transcends worldly/factional alliances and/or divine orders.

    Of course some tribes are very primitive and therefore still developing in such ideas and practices. For example, @Achimrst was forced married to the revered shaman of Thalagor in Dun Valley during the event:

    Log'obi, an ogre shaman smiles horrifically and bats frayed lashes.

    Log'obi, an ogre shaman says, "You."

    Log'obi, an ogre shaman says, "Turn round."

    Achimrst blinks.

    Seer Achimrst, Etheric Shaman of Nature says in a clear, thin voice, "I'm engaged."

    Lord Mannimar de Valois, Spirit Warden says to Achimrst, "You heard the lady."

    You say to Achimrst in a gentle, ethereal voice, "I think you may need to make a great sacrifice for the good of the Veil, dear."

    Log'obi, an ogre shaman points accusingly at Achimrst.

    Seer Achimrst, Etheric Shaman of Nature says in a clear, thin voice, "If I wasn't engaged, I would but unfortunately I'm promised to another."

    Log'obi, an ogre shaman exclaims, "Big sacrifice!"

    Log'obi, an ogre shaman says, "Strong back."

    Lord Mannimar de Valois, Spirit Warden asks Achimrst, "I think it best, Achimrst, or do you place your chasity above the Veil?"

    Achimrst ponders the situation.

    Seer Achimrst, Etheric Shaman of Nature says in a clear, thin voice, "Fine."

    You say to Achimrst in a gentle, ethereal voice, "I told you the mantle of Seer was a burden."

    Log'obi, an ogre shaman pets Achimrst ingratiatingly.

    Seer Achimrst, Etheric Shaman of Nature says in a clear, thin voice, "Although if a man named Baatti kills you it's not my fault."

    Log'obi, an ogre shaman says, "Log'obi strong. Make many ogre baby."

    Lord Mannimar de Valois, Spirit Warden says, "I now pronounce you husband and wife."

    Log'obi, an ogre shaman gives a wooden wand to Seer Achimrst, Etheric Shaman of Nature.

    Log'obi, an ogre shaman leers lasciviously at Achimrst.

    Log'obi, an ogre shaman says, "You guard my talisman."

    Log'obi, an ogre shaman says, "We need it for wedding night."

    Achimrst pets a wooden wand ingratiatingly.

    (The Shaman Clan): Kayeil says, "I suggest Achimrst never return to Dun, heh."

    Disciple Sarieno Kindfire, Swordsman of the Crown says with a distinctly Hashani accent, "I wonder what you're going to do with that..."

    (The Shaman Clan): Balkin says, "I think Log'obi knows who's on top." 

  • BluefBluef Delos
    edited December 2014
    Kuy said:
    Achimrst said:
    Daeir said:
    Is any of what Bluef said canon outside the Curia Spiritus or whatever else?

    It really doesn't seem like it, but I have no idea.
    It's actually something learned in the Spirit Walker house, or was before they got rid of most of their books!
    Wait.  So the Spirit Walker house had all kinda of books on how Spiritlore operated, but they got rid of them?

    WOW THOSE GUYS ARE FAST
    When Apollyon infiltrated Hashan and became the Spirit Walker patron the House burned a lot of its tomes (basically humgiied them) because they didn't fit with the massive divergence from where they were trying to head (toward evil). As a result, a lot of books that the Curia still possesses, that back up this lore, aren't found in the Spirit Walker estate anymore. Since none of the original House members stayed for this little experiment apart from Kachan, Payne and Harmonia, it's unlikely any of its current membership does privately either. But yeah, there were all kinds of books on spiritlore before spiritlore was a thing.
  • AchimrstAchimrst Nature
    Bluef said:
    Daeir said:
    Is any of what Bluef said canon outside the Curia Spiritus or whatever else?

    It really doesn't seem like it, but I have no idea.

    When spiritlore was being fashioned, several of us went to Tecton and its developers with concerns that the class would be made factional or diverge from what is and always has been its focus on neutrality and altruism. When the actual event happened, I was overjoyed to see that they'd heard us. 

    The shamans of the realm went to visit 16 different shamanic practitioners across the realm, including those on islands (it took hours and was amazing) in order to help Kalden cross into this realm and break our bond with runelore. By doing that, we were exposed to the nature of what a shaman generally is: A spiritualist, a healer, a regional religious figure that is by in large neutral and transcends worldly/factional alliances and/or divine orders.

    Of course some tribes are very primitive and therefore still developing in such ideas and practices. For example, @Achimrst was forced married to the revered shaman of Thalagor in Dun Valley during the event:

    Log'obi, an ogre shaman smiles horrifically and bats frayed lashes.

    Log'obi, an ogre shaman says, "You."

    Log'obi, an ogre shaman says, "Turn round."

    Achimrst blinks.

    Seer Achimrst, Etheric Shaman of Nature says in a clear, thin voice, "I'm engaged."

    Lord Mannimar de Valois, Spirit Warden says to Achimrst, "You heard the lady."

    You say to Achimrst in a gentle, ethereal voice, "I think you may need to make a great sacrifice for the good of the Veil, dear."

    Log'obi, an ogre shaman points accusingly at Achimrst.

    Seer Achimrst, Etheric Shaman of Nature says in a clear, thin voice, "If I wasn't engaged, I would but unfortunately I'm promised to another."

    Log'obi, an ogre shaman exclaims, "Big sacrifice!"

    Log'obi, an ogre shaman says, "Strong back."

    Lord Mannimar de Valois, Spirit Warden asks Achimrst, "I think it best, 

    Achimrst, or do you place your chasity above the Veil?"

    Achimrst ponders the situation.

    Seer Achimrst, Etheric Shaman of Nature says in a clear, thin voice, "Fine."

    You say to Achimrst in a gentle, ethereal voice, "I told you the mantle of Seer was a burden."

    Log'obi, an ogre shaman pets Achimrst ingratiatingly.

    Seer Achimrst, Etheric Shaman of Nature says in a clear, thin voice, "Although if a man named Baatti kills you it's not my fault."

    Log'obi, an ogre shaman says, "Log'obi strong. Make many ogre baby."

    Lord Mannimar de Valois, Spirit Warden says, "I now pronounce you husband and wife."

    Log'obi, an ogre shaman gives a wooden wand to Seer Achimrst, Etheric Shaman of Nature.

    Log'obi, an ogre shaman leers lasciviously at Achimrst.

    Log'obi, an ogre shaman says, "You guard my talisman."

    Log'obi, an ogre shaman says, "We need it for wedding night."

    Achimrst pets a wooden wand ingratiatingly.

    (The Shaman Clan): Kayeil says, "I suggest Achimrst never return to Dun, heh."

    Disciple Sarieno Kindfire, Swordsman of the Crown says with a distinctly Hashani accent, "I wonder what you're going to do with that..."

    (The Shaman Clan): Balkin says, "I think Log'obi knows who's on top." 

    Bitch
  • AchimrstAchimrst Nature
    Bluef said:
    Kuy said:
    Achimrst said:
    Daeir said:
    Is any of what Bluef said canon outside the Curia Spiritus or whatever else?

    It really doesn't seem like it, but I have no idea.
    It's actually something learned in the Spirit Walker house, or was before they got rid of most of their books!
    Wait.  So the Spirit Walker house had all kinda of books on how Spiritlore operated, but they got rid of them?

    WOW THOSE GUYS ARE FAST
    When Apollyon infiltrated Hashan and became the Spirit Walker patron the House burned a lot of its tomes (basically humgiied them) because they didn't fit with the massive divergence from where they were trying to head (toward evil). As a result, a lot of books that the Curia still possesses, that back up this lore, aren't found in the Spirit Walker estate anymore. Since none of the original House members stayed for this little experiment apart from Kachan, Payne and Harmonia, it's unlikely any of its current membership does privately either. But yeah, there were all kinds of books on spirit walking before spirit walking was a thing.
    Also, I was told the Librarian at the time Salvar took them all!
  • BluefBluef Delos
    edited December 2014
    Kayeil said:
    To say shamans should be banned from Targossas because we can bind to an apostate spirit is like saying we should be banned to all cities in which we can bind to spirits that would oppose them if they were still alive... thus making us a true rogue class.
    Amen, Kayeil. I'd be totally okay with being a true rogue class: But then give rogues some love. Or set up a High Clan or House for shamanic practitioners (of every nonaligned class, not just shaman) somewhere like Delos (where the Curia has already always been based due to this exact problem with cities perceiving us as antithetical to their purposeful existences). 
  • AntoniusAntonius
    Kayeil said:
    To say shamans should be banned from Targossas because we can bind to an apostate spirit is like saying we should be banned to all cities in which we can bind to spirits that would oppose them if they were still alive... thus making us a true rogue class.
    That seems like a bit of jump, to be honest. I suspect Ashtan and Mhaldor wouldn't be quite as restrictive as Targossas is about what classes were allowed if game mechanics weren't a factor, though I could be wrong.

    I think an argument could probably be made that binding the spirit of an Apostate is no different to Devotion users summoning actual demons, though I'm not personally interested in doing so... Just something to think about.

    Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files

  • BluefBluef Delos
    edited December 2014
    Antonius said:
    Kayeil said:
    To say shamans should be banned from Targossas because we can bind to an apostate spirit is like saying we should be banned to all cities in which we can bind to spirits that would oppose them if they were still alive... thus making us a true rogue class.
    That seems like a bit of jump, to be honest. I suspect Ashtan and Mhaldor wouldn't be quite as restrictive as Targossas is about what classes were allowed if game mechanics weren't a factor, though I could be wrong.

    I think an argument could probably be made that binding the spirit of an Apostate is no different to Devotion users summoning actual demons, though I'm not personally interested in doing so... Just something to think about.
    Excellent point, Antonius.

    Giving adventurers a glimpse of Hell (Hellsight) and summoning demons to torment the unrighteous (Demons) could most definitely be argued as a game mechanic that makes every Devotion user no better than any shaman. Let's also not forget about Damnation:

    CURSE the eternal soul of your victim.

    For 2 RL years I've heard about how curses are connected to Darkness and that's why all the Dawnstrider shamans were kicked to the curb. Please. Targ's hatred of shamans is special city snowflake RP that pretty much no other faction in the game acknowledges as in any way being linked to canon.
  • AddamaAddama
    We've been complaining that not enough people are coming to Targ, meanwhile barring a whole class because of a perceived RP connection that isn't actually hard-coded into the class.

    Yes, I want Shaman friends.
    ~Kresslack's obsession~
  • TalysinTalysin
    I'll come back full time if you let Shamans in Targ :).
  • BluefBluef Delos
    Talysin said:
    I'll come back full time if you let Shamans in Targ :).
    It is worth it for THIS alone!
  • AchimrstAchimrst Nature
    Oh please, stop lying to yourselves. The no shaman's rule is all about keeping Bluef out of Targ.
  • AustereAustere Tennessee
    edited December 2014
    Achimrst said:
    Oh please, stop lying to yourselves. The no shaman's rule is all about keeping Bluef out of Targ.
    I was just thinking,  this could possibly be part of the problem.  Honestly though,  it is a silly reason.  It is definitely limiting Targossas from getting a lot of decent people.  I have a shaman that would jump ship to Targossas if it were allowed.  As it stands,  alt is stuck being a filthy Ashtani heretic that doesn't know what role playing is. Open your doors so I can learn about rp, please.  Would never jump ship on main without knowing what the environment there is like (I wasn't one of the multitudes of people to test it when it first opened) and I am too lazy to start a new alt.

    Edit: just make a no @Bluef‌ rule if it is such a problem! #splitAteam2014
  • BluefBluef Delos
    edited December 2014
    Austere said:
    Achimrst said:
    Oh please, stop lying to yourselves. The no shaman's rule is all about keeping Bluef out of Targ.
    I was just thinking,  this could possibly be part of the problem.  Honestly though,  it is a silly reason.  It is definitely limiting Targossas from getting a lot of decent people.  I have a shaman that would jump ship to Targossas if it were allowed.  As it stands,  alt is stuck being a filthy Ashtani heretic that doesn't know what role playing is. Open your doors so I can learn about rp, please.  Would never jump ship on main without knowing what the environment there is like (I wasn't one of the multitudes of people to test it when it first opened) and I am too lazy to start a new alt.

    Edit: just make a no @Bluef‌ rule if it is such a problem! #splitAteam2014
    First, if they start accepting shamans the proper roleplay response - since Bluef and other shamans were a Dawnstrider, a Shallam ally, a Refugee, and spent half a RL year defending New Hope when the Bloodsworn were newly returned - would be to reach out to those persons first and foremost if such a change was made. Actually roleplay it out. Explain how your understanding has been altered. 

    If you want to roleplay such a big change in attitude, at least do it right. Don't make the same mistake as when the city was first formed and just lolz it through, further insulating yourselves just because you don't like me OOCly. This is a game afterall. There are plenty of people who break the rules in Targ, who have attitudes that are far worse than Bluef's serene disposition, and who do less to help the cause overall than Bluef has or does now IC. And many, many shamans who might jump at this opportunity if it involved more than simply using a game mechanic to open the city to the class.

    Second, why does everyone assume Bluef would want to join Targossas? They screwed her and every other shaman Dawnstrider over when they turned them out.

  • AmarillysAmarillys
    I think they might be teasing you a little, love.



  • BluefBluef Delos
    Oh, I know Austere wasn't serious. <3

    But the way they booted shamans in the first place, and the way they're trying to defend something that doesn't connect IC in any way, just makes me hope that they realize that their insular society of their own making. Simply accepting shamans won't fix anything on its own.
  • AustereAustere Tennessee
    Bluef said:
    Oh, I know Austere wasn't serious. <3

    But the way they booted shamans in the first place, and the way they're trying to defend something that doesn't connect IC in any way, just makes me hope that they realize that their insular society of their own making. Simply accepting shamans won't fix anything on its own.
    Was totally being serious.  I honestly think that the conception that she wants to join is hurting the acceptance of shaman, which is dumb. . Shaman is definitely not a beginner class.  If you all want to veto people who know combat because of one person,  I think the choice is dumb and could be upheld in much easier ways.

     However,  when @Bluef‌ decides to try to join Ashtan,  banning an entire class over one person: worth it(yes, this part is sarcasm)
  • TreyTrey
    Achimrst said:
    Oh please, stop lying to yourselves. The no shaman's rule is all about keeping Bluef out of Targ.
    Flagged for using an apostrophe on the plural form of shaman.

  • NimNim
    Trey said:
    Achimrst said:
    Oh please, stop lying to yourselves. The no shaman's rule is all about keeping Bluef out of Targ.
    Flagged for using an apostrophe on the plural form of shaman.
    You mean he wasn't talking about a noh shaman on sacred guard duty to protect Targossas from the ever-impending @Bluef danger?

    @Achimrst, you have raised the grandest of dreams and then shattered them to dust in but a single sentence. You monster.
  • AchimrstAchimrst Nature
    Nim said:
    Trey said:
    Achimrst said:
    Oh please, stop lying to yourselves. The no shaman's rule is all about keeping Bluef out of Targ.
    Flagged for using an apostrophe on the plural form of shaman.
    You mean he wasn't talking about a noh shaman on sacred guard duty to protect Targossas from the ever-impending @Bluef danger?

    @Achimrst, you have raised the grandest of dreams and then shattered them to dust in but a single sentence. You monster.
    I am a monster, never forget it.



  • GreysGreys
    Hey, I was part of the committee that decided about shamans for Shallam and voted in their favor so was a dramatic shift.  Still, unless you can convince Bloodsworn otherwise, not going to happen.
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